Live from Joe’s mom’s basement (complete with dog mugs, birthday roasting, and Doug polishing his trivia crown), the crew tackles a headline that caught plenty of attention. Suze Orman backing off her long held stance that everyone should work until age 70.
Does that mean you shouldn’t work longer? Not exactly.
Joe Saul-Sehy, OG, Doug, and special guest Len Penzo break down the math behind working into your late 60s or beyond. More years to save, more compounding, fewer years drawing down assets. It’s powerful stuff. But they also remind Stackers that work doesn’t have to mean the same grind, and that retiring and claiming Social Security are two completely separate decisions.
Len shares why he plans to delay Social Security until 70, walks through the break even math versus claiming at 62, and highlights the importance of survivor benefits for spouses. At the same time, the crew emphasizes that health, longevity expectations, and personal priorities can completely change the right answer.
Suze’s updated advice leans heavily on stress testing your retirement plan, and that’s where the basement really digs in. What happens if inflation sticks around? If your side hustle disappears? If returns are lower than expected? The team argues that instead of chasing the perfect retirement date, you should solve for flexibility. Avoid analysis paralysis but don’t skip the planning either.
They also debate liquidity (hint: it doesn’t mean stuffing your mattress with cash), share a cautionary tale about delayed IRA access, and remind listeners that logistics matter just as much as spreadsheets.
In the TikTok Minute, a retiree reframes time as priceless instead of something to maximize. That sparks a thoughtful conversation about identity in retirement, the adjustment period after leaving work, and what makes life satisfying once the paycheck stops.
Plus: A big community win as a fellow Stacker crosses the $1 million net worth milestone, stats on how common that really is, upcoming Stackers meetups, Doug’s Gutenberg themed trivia, and unexpected retirement expenses involving squirrels and BarkBox. Because this is the basement, after all.
What You’ll Learn:
• Why working longer can strengthen your retirement math and when it might not
• The difference between retiring and claiming Social Security
• How to think about Social Security timing, longevity, and survivor benefits
• What it means to stress test your retirement plan
• Why flexibility often beats perfect optimization
• The real meaning of liquidity and why too much idle cash can hurt efficiency
• How retirement success is often about time, not just money
• Why identity shifts matter just as much as account balances
The Big Takeaway:
Retirement doesn’t require working forever. But it does require a coordinated plan, one that brings together your assets, Social Security strategy, spending flexibility, and (most importantly) how you want to spend your time. Because in the end, money is renewable. Time isn’t.
This Episode Is For You If:
• You’ve been told to work to 70 and aren’t sure if that’s right for you
• You’re trying to figure out when to claim Social Security
• You want to stress test your retirement plan but don’t know where to start
• You’re worried about the adjustment period after leaving work
• You believe retirement planning is about more than just hitting a number
Question for You:
If you could retire tomorrow, what would you spend more time doing, and what would you happily leave behind? Share your thoughts in the Spotify comments or The Basement Facebook group. Your answer might inspire another Stacker who’s quietly wondering the same thing.
Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201
Enjoy!
Our special guest host: Len Penzo
Big thanks to Len Penzo for joining us today. To learn more about Len, visit Len Penzo dot Com – The offbeat personal finance blog for responsible people.
Our TikTok Minute
Our Headline
Doug’s Trivia
- In 1455, Johannes Gutenberg was backed by investors to print copies of what book?
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Other Mentions
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Written by: Kevin Bailey
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Episode transcript
[00:00:00] Joe: It’s another Monday in America, which means we have to have a toast. Len, did you bring a mug? I like toast. A mug. We forgot to tell you to bring a mug, didn’t we? You got a mug. He’s got one. He’s got the dog mug. That’s a cool mug. That’s [00:00:17] Len: my pup. [00:00:18] Joe: You’re gigantic pup. How tall is that dog? [00:00:22] Len: It’s backwards. [00:00:23] Joe: Zeppelin’s dead. [00:00:25] Len: Yep. Yeah, that pup’s very tall. I, you know what, I, I don’t know how he’s a, he can rest his chin on our kitchen countertop. [00:00:32] Joe: Yeah. I would tell you, Doug, that Zeppelin is, uh, is well named. [00:00:39] Joe: Well, well, well, well named [00:00:41] Doug: Does he crash and burn a lot? [00:00:43] Joe: Yeah. They were gonna go with, no, they were gonna go too soon. They were gonna go with F-150, but then they’re like, that’s not big enough. We need something, something bigger. [00:00:55] Doug: When you see Zeppelin poop, do you say, oh, the humanity, [00:01:00] Len: you know what that is? [00:01:01] Len: Of having a bigger dog, that’s actually a, that’s a bonus. You know, the bigger, the easier to pick up and [00:01:07] Doug: yeah. [00:01:07] Len: So that makes it life a lot easier. [00:01:09] Doug: I’ve got two of ’em and, uh, it is, uh, it’s. It’s easy-ish. You need a big shovel [00:01:18] Len: as long as they’re hard. [00:01:19] Joe: Oh, you’re talking about that. When you said that easier to pick up. [00:01:23] Joe: I thought you’re talking about the dog. I’m like, what? What? Huh? The [00:01:26] OG: poop. You’re talking about poop Joe? [00:01:28] Joe: Oh, [00:01:28] OG: yes. They’re trying to rationalize how great it is to like pick up poop with their hands. [00:01:32] Joe: I hate to interrupt that by saluting our troops, but if you guys don’t mind, I’d like to say that while we’re talking poop, there are people who protected us so we could. [00:01:42] Joe: Spend time talking poop. So on behalf of the Men and Women making podcast in mom’s basement and the men and women out there Stacking Benjamins, thanks to our service members, [00:01:55] Doug: cheers. There’s no way we’re using this. [00:01:59] Joe: We’re using what? [00:02:00] Doug: Are we really gonna, we’re gonna start the show off with this. [00:02:03] Len: We need one. [00:02:04] Len: You know what? You need to run Joe. You need to run one of those old bud commercials with the, remember those? It was like, here’s genius. You America. Yeah. Genius. That’s it. Was it? Remember those? [00:02:14] Joe: I I do remember. [00:02:15] Len: Oh my God, those were so freaking [00:02:16] Joe: funny. Here’s to you, Mr. And Mr. Service member. [00:02:19] Len: Yes, that’s right. [00:02:20] Joe: So we should do real people of genius. Real man of genius. Alright, here’s to you. Let’s go stack some Benjamins together, shall we? [00:02:31] opener: Uh oh. Sounds like somebody’s got a case of the mund [00:02:41] Doug: Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show. [00:02:54] Doug: I am Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. And on today’s show, the great Susie Orman has changed. Her weight, what? She changed her mind. That’s incredible. We’re gonna chat about exactly what the Queen of Personal Finance thinks today and what that might mean for your own money, but that’s not all. I’ll also share a TikTok minute about retirement that you won’t wanna miss. [00:03:20] Doug: And of course I’ll also deal you in on some spine tingling money trivia. And now three guys who make you tingle. Every time they say the words compounding interest, it’s Joe OG and Len. Penso [00:03:40] Joe: What? Hey, stackers in the guest host seat today. Mr. Lezo is here. How are you my friend? [00:03:47] OG: We changed the [00:03:48] Len: locks. I’m doing great. [00:03:49] Len: The question is, how are you doing there, Joe? [00:03:51] Joe: Now that you’re here, I’m doing so much better. [00:03:54] Len: Yeah, but you know why I asked that? ’cause this is recording day. We know what? It’s your birthday, my friend. Happy birthday to you. [00:04:00] Joe: It is a day where we celebrate another trip around the sun. [00:04:04] Len: I love it. Is that [00:04:05] Doug: the creaking sound I’ve been hearing this whole [00:04:07] Joe: time. [00:04:09] Len: You know how I remember I and I remember your birthday every year because mine’s thes the next day. Mine’s because yours tomorrow. Yours is coming up tomorrow. Mine’s tomorrow. You know we’re getting older, obviously, which is never fun. It actually kind of sucks, but there are some good things to it, right? [00:04:22] Len: You get older, you get wise, right? And that wisdom that I’ve attained now, I finally learned how to have a smoking hot body in an old age. Finally, I finally discovered the Secret [00:04:34] Joe: and. [00:04:35] Len: Get cremated [00:04:41] Joe: and welcome back to Lead Pezo to the lead show. Have [00:04:44] Len: you, you missed me. That quality humor. [00:04:47] Joe: Lead roses are red finder. I gotta, I got, I gotta find, find some. I, I don’t know. Oh gee. How are you man? [00:04:59] OG: I mean, I’m just sitting here enjoying being young. You guys all talk about being old and getting older, and Doug’s like the middle child. [00:05:08] OG: Yeah, that’s what Doug’s, I’m like the one that everybody likes ’cause he is like the young one. I’m the surprise baby in this group. [00:05:14] Joe: The one where the parents have already resigned themselves to the fact that they’ve given up. [00:05:18] OG: Yes, they’re done. Absolutely. Can I watch YouTube until two in the morning? [00:05:21] OG: Absolutely. We don’t [00:05:22] Joe: care. Sure. Whatever. [00:05:24] OG: We’re going to [00:05:24] Doug: bed. I hope you don’t spend any time, Joe, wondering why we can’t hit the 18 to 35 demographic with our, [00:05:35] Doug: we just got our answer right there. [00:05:38] Joe: Well, the good news is we have a retirement planning question on today’s Joe that’ll get the 18 year olds. Cuman, Suzy Orva has changed her mind about something important about retirement. We’ll find out what that is later on in the show. Len, this, uh, particular TikTok minute that we have today, I really wanna get your take. [00:05:57] Joe: And also, oh gee, I want to get your take ’cause, uh, cool. It’ll be interesting to have you hear what this gentleman says about retirement. And as a guy who now has been officially retired, but not from, of course, the blogger writing, but from other endeavors, Mr. Penso. This guy also has been retired a couple years and gives some insight there. [00:06:18] Joe: And for people that aren’t retired yet, people planning retirement. This is your retirement planning episode. So sit back, relax, grab a sheet of paper, however you take notes because I think we got a lot, uh, on the agenda today. We have a couple of sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We’re gonna hear from them and then. [00:06:39] Joe: Og Len, Doug and I we’re gonna dive into Susie Orman changing her mind. [00:06:46] headlines: Hello Darlings, and now it’s time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin’s headlines. [00:06:53] Joe: Wanted to get your take on this headline, guys, because when I see that one of the biggest names of personal finance changes her mind about something, of course, uh, that is headline worthy. [00:07:03] Joe: Mark Guberti wrote this@money.com. He writes, Susie Orman is regularly shared. Tough love, financial advice. Yelling at people is tough love anyway. The focus is on avoiding debt, spending less than you earn and working until you turn 70. She’s held firm to much of the financial advice and propelled her career in the nineties, but she seems to have softened her stance. [00:07:26] Joe: And this need to work until 70. So she has number one said working till 70 might not be great anymore. She previously advocated for not retiring before 70, so you could maximize social security because you get the extra income that allows your savings to grow and you don’t have to tap retirement accounts. [00:07:47] Joe: And of course you’re delaying Social security. It’s interesting. Oh gee, I wanna start with you because we did this headline a few weeks ago that people tend to think of retiring and taking social security in the same breath. Like I do the two things concurrently, right? Mm-hmm. So she’s saying. Maybe I don’t work till 70 and not as important as I used to think it was. [00:08:10] OG: To be clear, how old is Susie now? Like when she was saying it 20 years ago, she’s like, yeah, you can work till 70. And now she’s like, what? Closing it on 70? And she’s like, this sucks. She’s 74 [00:08:18] Doug: now. [00:08:19] OG: Yeah. She’s like, this sucks. Like working to 70 was awful. [00:08:22] Doug: I held out as long as I could. [00:08:24] Joe: Right? You see these people that are experts and then they get to that age and they’re like, oh, wait a minute. [00:08:30] Joe: Uh, here’s, [00:08:31] OG: well, I mean, the math isn’t wrong, right? Like the impact of a working an extra year. Isn’t just working an extra year, it’s another year of saving. It’s another year of compounding the money that you have saved and it’s a year fewer of withdrawing from your portfolio. So it’s like a double, triple, quadruple whammy of if you can have one more year, you know, that has a pretty profound impact. [00:08:55] OG: And you could argue this all the way till, you know, age a hundred, right? It’s like you don’t need as much money to retire if you work till you’re 87. It’s like, well true. Absolutely. Also, you’re working till you’re 87. My grandfather worked till he was 92. He was a business owner, and work for him wasn’t, you know, he wasn’t [00:09:13] Joe: strenuous [00:09:13] OG: hanging on a roof, you know? [00:09:15] OG: Yeah. Putting out shingles. He was, you know, he owned a business, but his workday was schmoozing with customers. It wasn’t, you know, lifting heavy boxes of paper like it used to be. The definition of work I think is also kind of critical here. And I think a lot of people will think like work, get up, get dressed, go to the job, get home at five o’clock, have supper with the family type of thing. [00:09:37] OG: And len’s a great example of this, Len, you’re retired from your corporate job. But I bet that you still would say that you do some work, right? You still have your writing and occasional media appearances on the Stacking Benjamin Show that you have to contend That’s right. Very [00:09:49] Len: lucrative, [00:09:50] OG: fully paid, of course. [00:09:51] OG: Yeah. Um, in IOUs mind you, but they’re, uh, redeemable In the future, you’re gonna wanna hang onto these, these are gonna be some [00:09:58] Joe: line. [00:09:58] OG: Someday. [00:09:59] Len: One of these days [00:10:00] OG: we pay in Stacking Benjamin’s coin. Someday you’re gonna be happy you’ve got these. [00:10:04] Joe: Yeah. She now says that you don’t need to work until 70. If you have savings and income sources, go ahead and tap those early, which is something she used to say, don’t do. [00:10:14] OG: As long as you got $5 million, you’re good. Yeah, [00:10:16] Joe: right. Tap that asset. 4 0 1 Ks ira. She calls it a bridge strategy so that you can still do the thing that she recommends and OG that you recommend, which is. Still hold off on tapping that social security until later. But I’m curious, Len, you’ve seen the other side of this too, right? [00:10:35] Joe: I mean, nobody knows how long they’re gonna live. What’s your plan for social security? Are you gonna use this, uh, this weight strategy like OG talks about? Or when you get to 62, man, are you gonna crank it up? [00:10:47] Len: Well, first thing I’m gonna say is. It’s always crazy when somebody gives something with retirement and social security. [00:10:53] Len: A one size fits all answer. We’re all different. We all have different goals and financial situations, so I don’t think there’s a one size fits all answer. First off, for me, first thing I, I will say is. When you’re doing your retirement goals and you’re younger and you’re doing your retirement planning, try not to include social Security at all as part of your retirement income. [00:11:16] Len: Set your goal based without using that number, because if you can hit that number, anything you earn in social security, whether you take it early or late, will be bonus. It’s just gravy and it makes your life a lot easier for hitting that. I call it a stretch goal. I am holding off until 70. Okay. I’m just gonna wait. [00:11:34] Len: I’m gonna maximize it. Get as big a number as I can get, and that’s because when I retired, I, I had hit my goal, I’d hit my retirement savings goal, and I just, I have the ability to do that. So why not? Why not? Wait. I know a lot of people will say. Uh, we’ll take the money early, you know, to take it. Yeah. You know, I, I’m willing to wait. [00:11:52] Len: I want that bigger number, I’m afraid. Uh, I’d just like to have the bigger number for social security when we get there. [00:11:58] Joe: There’s a big time talker on the other side, Len, who says The math is the math, but listen, you don’t know how long you’re gonna be here, so take it as soon as you can. Just realize it’s gonna be less, and just put that money in your pocket right now. [00:12:09] Len: Yeah. Well, well, so we’ve all run the numbers. If I wait to 70, my payback period is 14 and a half years. I would have to live 14 and a half years. If I started taking that money at 70 to get everything I would’ve got if I’ve started taking the money at 62, basically [00:12:25] Joe: you’re betting on living to 85. [00:12:27] Len: I’m betting on living to, and if I don’t, well I’ve lost, I made, I made the wrong decision, but what if I lived to 90 or what if I lived to, you know, then I’m better off. [00:12:34] Len: Right. [00:12:34] OG: Well, the other side of it lend that I think is also important on the social security side is for most people it’s not just, it’s not just about you. Because in a lot of families, there’s two people, you know, a couple, and maybe your spouse doesn’t have as much high as high earnings as you, and so their social security benefits a little bit less. [00:12:53] OG: Whoever dies first gets the bigger number. So if you predecease you spouse and she had a lower income history than you throughout your lifetime, she’ll also get to keep that higher number. [00:13:04] Len: Correct. [00:13:05] OG: So even if you do kick off at 83 and people go, oh, see, it didn’t work out. It’s like, well, but. Now my wife gets this higher number that she would’ve got a lower number on. [00:13:15] OG: You know, so that’s a little bit of a factor also. That’s [00:13:17] Len: extremely important. If your wife is, for example, a stay at home mom who hasn’t been building up Yeah. Those social security dollars that [00:13:23] OG: credits, [00:13:24] Len: yeah. Uh, your credits. So that really helps somebody like the honeybee for my wife who. She’s gonna be entitled to half of what I’m earning, uh, what I eventually claim. [00:13:33] Len: So yes, that’s, that is a, a fantastic point. I’ll bring one other point up is some you where you don’t know. My mother-in-law was diagnosed with stage four cancer way back in, I think it was 2004, 2003. Right around that time was the time she had to make her decision, am I gonna take social security or am I gonna try and continue working to 70? [00:13:50] Len: And she decided, well, I’m gonna try and work, but I’m gonna take Social security now ’cause I have stage four cancer. Well, guess what? She lived another 16 years beyond 17 years beyond that. There was a point there near the end. It was like, well, you could have waited to seven, but you don’t know. It’s just, there’s just so many unknowns out there that it’s tough. [00:14:09] Joe: Yeah. I don’t think you’re unhappy in that situation. [00:14:12] Len: No, you’re not. [00:14:12] Joe: I don’t think you’re sitting back going, if only I died. [00:14:15] Len: Exactly. But it’s just sometimes you think you’re making the right decision and it ends up being. Hindsight’s 2020 as they say. [00:14:22] Joe: Yeah, that’s true. We don’t know the plan. I mean, if the plan was right, which is why OG you talk so often about, you know, we solve for optimization, but we should be solving for flexibility. [00:14:31] Joe: We should give ourself the ability to roll with the punches more. Susie has three things that they talk about in this piece. Her quote, new retirement rules. I don’t know that any of these are new, but I think it’s a fun headline and I think we can focus on these three things. The first one is. Number one, focus on retirement readiness. [00:14:50] Joe: She says you should stress test your retirement plan so you know that you’re financially ready to retire. So, Len, you think about stress testing, ’cause as an engineer you would stress test stuff. How do you think about stress testing your financial plan before you actually submit your paperwork to retire? [00:15:09] Len: Yeah, I think that’s a fantastic idea. Try and see what you can get away with without the social security on your plan. [00:15:16] Joe: So that’s a stress test right there by saying, Hey, can I do it without Social security is a stress test. [00:15:21] Len: That’s the ultimate stress test. Yeah. And see how long you can hold out without Social Security. [00:15:27] Len: You know, I saw somebody, I saw a blogger, I was reading, uh, a piece. He retired early. I went back and I was looking at one of his old posts from 20 16, 20 17, and he had been planning for. Blogging income of 40 to 50,000 a year starting Oh, current from 2016 on. Well, we all know how bloggers know that. [00:15:47] Len: Things have changed from the blogging. So at 10 [00:15:49] Joe: x that right, Lynn? [00:15:49] Len: Yeah. Oh yeah. Right. [00:15:50] Joe: Minus 10 x. [00:15:51] Len: Those days are gone and he was even, and I read a current article from him where he sent his BLO income. Now this is 2025, had dropped to under $3,000 a year. So in 2016 he was planning on $40,000 of income today. [00:16:06] Len: Today. And he’s not getting that. He’s getting, you know, 5% of that. When you’re doing that stress testing, it’s very important that. Those kind of stresses, those those tests kind of let you know you should be doing that. It’s like, well, what if I don’t have this income? What if I don’t have that income? And try that again. [00:16:23] Len: You don’t know. There’s no sure things, so the stress tests are very important. [00:16:28] Joe: Yeah. I’ve made it no secret that I love doing this. I can’t imagine what I do, so I’m gonna continue doing this. But there’s no Stacking Benjamins income in the financial plan. I mean, looking at where we’re at right now, og, if I could 10 x this, I still got big, healthy zero. [00:16:45] OG: Still zero. Yeah, [00:16:47] Joe: it’s fantastic. [00:16:48] OG: The way that I think about this is in terms of retirement income or cash flow or whatever you wanna say, is you wanna establish some sort of upper bound limit and some lower bound limit of where do I have to make some changes. You know, a lot of times people are familiar with this concept of Monte Carlo. [00:17:04] OG: Simulation like, oh, I did a Monte Carlo and I got an 80%. That means I’m 80% successful. No, that’s not what that means. What Monte Carlo means with 80% is that in 800 of the thousand times, you didn’t have to make any changes to your plan. Based on what you said. The other 20 don’t mean you’re at zero. It means, Hey, I’m gonna have to make a change. [00:17:25] OG: Well, the like len’s been saying this whole time, life is a series of changes. Whether it’s a healthcare issue, whether it’s a really cool opportunity, whether it’s, you know, you need to move because of family, or you choose to be, you know, there’s all sorts of things that can happen in your life, whether it’s before or during, or throughout retirement that are gonna make changes to your plan. [00:17:45] OG: The idea is, where can I make these changes without affecting the plan, and when do I have to reevaluate what I’m doing? And so if you have an idea of like, take this income, for example, at 40 K for the blogger, it’s like, okay, if I’ve got this 40 k, I’ve got my assets, I got this 40 k, life is good. If my income drops to 10, I need to make a change to the plan. [00:18:04] OG: Anytime, anything between 10 and 40, like I can run the plan, you know, assuming that everything else goes the way that I project. The same thing also happens on the upside. We spend a lot of time thinking about the downside. The last 10 years of upside in terms of the stock market have also changed people’s plans, I think for the better in the sense of net worth and assets, but for the worse in terms of outcomes. [00:18:27] OG: We look at people who 10 years ago retired and said, I expect to get 7% in my portfolio. Meanwhile, they’ve been averaging 14 or 15, yet they’re still living their life like 7%, and so now they have so much access in their plan. They haven’t considered it, they haven’t considered what to do about it and haven’t considered like all the opportunity that they’re leaving on the table. [00:18:47] OG: That the last 10 years from 60 to 70, let’s say, where I could have done the cruise or I could have helped my, you know, church with the thing that we were trying to raise money for or whatever. Because it’s like, well, no, here’s the plan. The plan says I take 4%. It’s like, well, yeah, it says 4%, but if you’re. [00:19:05] OG: Slaying it because you make extra blog income or because you know your portfolio did better than you think, or because you spent less than you imagined. Like, what are we doing? Like just accumulating money for the sake of accumulating it? Like that’s fun too, but. Let’s party a little. [00:19:19] Joe: Well, if there’s more that people wanna do, I don’t know that just going out and blowing cash is an exciting thing. [00:19:26] OG: I’m saying blowing it. I’m saying like, you know, the person who goes, I can’t take my kids to Disney. Yeah. [00:19:30] Joe: The bucket, the bucket list stuff that goes by the wayside because you don’t think you can afford it. [00:19:35] OG: Yeah. And meanwhile I die at 87 with 7 million in the bank, and it’s like, grandpa was a, it’s like, I’ve gonna have done this stuff. [00:19:46] OG: The [00:19:46] Len: kids appreciate [00:19:47] OG: it, whatcha talking about? [00:19:47] Joe: And it’s funny that you bring that up because on the very least, if you’re not gonna spend it, you know, celebrating. Some of that wealth while you’re alive. I remember telling my clients to give it away while you’re alive. Yeah. So you can see people enjoy it. [00:20:00] OG: Absolutely. [00:20:01] Joe: You know why wait until you’re gone when you can. I had a [00:20:04] Len: buddy at work, his father-in-law was, uh, he’s in his mid eighties and he took their extended family a whole bunch. He rented this giant mansion up off of on Maui. I think it was right on the. Ocean, just this spectacular home. And I think he spent like 40, 45,000 bucks for a few, uh, for a couple weeks, and he brought his whole family over. [00:20:24] Len: Wow. And, and let them enjoy it. I mean, that’s one way to do it. [00:20:27] OG: Yeah. But $2 million in your brokerage account, that’s one year of dividend payments, [00:20:31] Len: right? Yeah. And when you’re in your mid eighties, it’s like, you know what? Yeah. [00:20:35] OG: Money’s [00:20:36] Len: a great [00:20:36] OG: idea. It’s in the absolute, I think everybody here would go. Okay. [00:20:39] OG: 40 grand for vacation is a just a crap [00:20:42] Len: load of cash. And it’s memories too. He’s creating memories for the rest of the family for himself, so it’s great. [00:20:47] Doug: Joe looks puzzled. Like, no, that just sounds like a vacation. [00:20:49] OG: I know. 40 grand, what have you. Have you guys ever done the Danube cruise? What are you talking about? [00:20:56] Doug: Try again. Pick a different number. Og. I did [00:20:59] OG: the Christmas markets backed up against a trip to Greece. I mean, yeah, if you’re just counting airfare, it’s a lot. You [00:21:04] Doug: need an entry level vacation, I guess. [00:21:07] Joe: Do you know how much that glide you can drink with 40 grand? That’s incredible. I. The other things, I think that when we talk about stress testing, og, I think one that nobody would’ve thought of three years ago, four years ago was inflation, right? [00:21:22] Joe: And, and now I think stress testing. What if inflation’s five? What if inflation goes up? Uh, stress test that, stress test, uh, lower returns on your portfolio. What if I not only don’t get 14? What if I get six instead of seven? [00:21:37] OG: All of those things are stuff that you have to play with a little bit. The downside of this is you could run into a little bit of analysis paralysis a little bit here of I’ve done all these stress tests and I’m, you know, it’s like if I toggle all these buttons on my retirement tanks, it’s like, well, but what’s the likelihood of all of those things happening all at the same time? [00:21:56] Joe: Right. [00:21:57] OG: And so you have to be a little careful in little too sky is falling and I don’t put a lot of energy into the. Analysts say that the next 10 years of market returns are gonna be less than the average market returns. Like, well, I mean maybe it is or maybe it’s not. But we we’re kind of buttoned up against about a hundred years worth of bunch of crazy stuff that’s happened in this, in this world, and we got a lot of data about what happens to stocks over that period of time. [00:22:23] OG: So I feel pretty good with forecasting the next a hundred years based on the last a hundred. The sequence of that could matter, but if you have enough. Margin or if you have enough safety and you have some flexibility built in your plan. You should be. Okay. [00:22:37] Len: That’s why it’s important when you’re doing these stress tests, put the stresses in and, and the good things too in buckets. [00:22:43] Len: High risk, low risk, medium risk, and that kind of helps you decide, well, yeah, this stress here is very expensive, but. It’s, it’s, uh, or I should say probability. High probability. Yeah. Low probability probability. High probability. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. Not risk, but, um, that will help you say, well, yeah, that’s gonna be expensive, but the probability of that, of that happening is very low, so you can kind of discount it. [00:23:05] Len: So do that for both your, your good things in retirement that could happen and the bad things, and, uh, makes your job a little easier. [00:23:12] Joe: The second thing on this list is having liquidity, and I find this an interesting quote, new retirement, POG, because I don’t know, we’ve been beating this drum for a long time. [00:23:25] Joe: There’s this emphasis that you have access to cash, and especially if you’re gonna retire early, not having all these hoops you have to jump through to get at your money. That’s in, in these, uh, over optimized places. You know, don’t have the tail wag the dog. [00:23:42] OG: I, I, yeah, I, I think this is such a big bag of nothing in terms of this whole concept. [00:23:46] OG: Now let me be clear. If your investments are in. Real illiquid things, and I mean like property private equity stuff that have literally, you can’t withdraw the money, right? You call the fund manager and you go, I need 10,000. They say, you cannot have it today. Like that’s illiquid. But everything else, your regular brokerage account, your Roth IRA, your IRA, your 401k, assuming it’s invested in ETFs, mutual funds, whatever stock that’s pure, that’s a hundred percent liquid. [00:24:15] OG: So I don’t buy this liquidity thing. She probably means cash. [00:24:19] Joe: She does, [00:24:20] OG: when she says liquidity, she actually [00:24:21] Joe: specifically means cash. [00:24:23] OG: Yeah. I think you have to layer out like your cash flow needs because getting to retirement and saying like all of a sudden, well now I need to have five years worth of cash on hand. [00:24:33] OG: It’s like, well, why? Like a year? Sure. Two years. Okay, fine. Do you need 10? Probably not. You know what I mean? Like there’s, there’s a balancing act of return. You just think about like these different buckets of, you know, Len was talking about different buckets of probability and, and magnitude of outcome. [00:24:53] OG: The same thing is true with your money. It’s like, okay, I need some money that I can pay the bills with tomorrow and I need some money for the expenses that I have coming around the corner. But you can play that game forever, right? You say, well, what about my property taxes that are due in 2045? [00:25:06] OG: Shouldn’t I have that set aside? Yeah, or you could just have a third of it set aside and keep it in your brokerage account and it’ll double twice and you’ll be fine. You can’t always have it sitting in cash. ’cause then you run into some efficiency things. So be careful with the liquidity trap of like, I have to be liquid. [00:25:23] OG: I also don’t buy this. I retire early. I can’t get to my money. Yes, you can. You just have to be retired. You just can’t get to your retirement money. [00:25:31] Len: How many things do you need where they, you need a huge sum of money within two days. I know. How, how often is that? It’s almost never, [00:25:36] OG: I would say Al, almost never. [00:25:38] OG: Right? Yeah. Like, well, what if the roof blows off? Okay. The roofer guy doesn’t show up with a bucket and go like, fill this bucket up with cash, then I’ll fix your roof. They do it and send you an invoice, right? I mean, sure. You know, I’m [00:25:49] Joe: still gonna play the other side of this though, og, which is that I, I, I prefer to just build the brokerage account on the side than spend my days worrying about the mega backdoor Roth IRA to every. [00:26:02] Joe: Degree that I can possibly do that, you know, making sure that my tax shelter optimization, the big financial geek argument right now that is now turned around going, well, I don’t think the Roth IRA is the way to go. It’s the pretext that you want, like, ugh, have some of each. [00:26:19] OG: Well, no, a hundred percent. [00:26:19] OG: That’s what I mean. Like if you get to retirement and you have, I mean, you just look at it the like in an obscene way, right? If all you had. Was pre-tax 401k money and you were 40 years old and you had 50 million in the bank. 50 million in your 401k. It’s all pre-tax. Can you retire? Can you legally retire? [00:26:40] OG: Is it liquid? Of course it is. Like there’s 150,000 ways to get money out of that account. It’s not overly complicated and I think that supports your point, Joe, is you don’t have to be so Yeah. Religious about like exactly. Every single penny has to be exactly right because money is money, right? If you have enough. [00:26:58] OG: You’re good. [00:26:59] Len: I, I’ll give a one real quick story of, of a, uh, I had to withdraw money from a IRA for the first time, uh, one of my IRAs, January, start of the year. So on January 2nd, I put in the request to withdraw an amount of cash and put it into our bank. Well. I had to set up the transfer mechanism. Long story short, what I thought was gonna take five days, there was problems between the IRA custodian and my bank. [00:27:24] Len: I wasn’t able to access that money until the very end of January. That’s a one time issue, but, and it took almost 30 days, but that’s the worst it would ever be. [00:27:34] Joe: What’s interesting about that too, Len, was that that was probably because you hadn’t set that upyet.
[00:27:39] Len: That’s correct. That’s correct, yeah. Which was a mistake on my part. [00:27:42] Len: I should have set that up a long time ago. Not right before I needed the money. [00:27:46] Joe: But still, now that you got that bump smoothed out, the next time you press a button and [00:27:51] Len: correct. [00:27:51] OG: Yeah. And did you run your checking account to exactly zero on January 3rd? Were you stressed about it? No. [00:27:57] Len: No. [00:27:58] OG: Did, did you still have an Amex card that said Oh yeah, you just charge, you know, just pay us in February. [00:28:01] OG: It’s cool. And I think what you’re saying is the worst case scenario was it took me almost 30 days. Correct. And it was still nothing. [00:28:07] Len: And it’ll never happen again. That’s a lesson learned on my part. [00:28:09] Joe: The third in this quote, new retirement, which is as we’re discussing, not so new, but incredibly relevant, I want to, uh. [00:28:18] Joe: Pause and wait on until after Doug’s trivia for the second half of the show. I think we can really talk about this [00:28:23] OG: such a tease. [00:28:24] Joe: It also ties into our TikTok Minute this week. But first, speaking of tie in, Doug’s gonna tie in some financial trivia to today’s show. [00:28:37] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Duggan. By this point in our friendship, you probably know what a huge reader I am. In fact, I just finished a scientific book about Andy Gravity. I couldn’t put it down. That was for you, Lynn. Well, I bring it up only because on today’s date, way back in 1455, Johannes Gutenberg listened to his mother, finally got off his lazy butt. [00:29:01] Doug: And printed a book. Oh, that’s not how, not how it happened. It was actually a big deal, huh? I mean, what makes history these days? Am I right? Any who? Here’s today’s question. This Gutenberg dude was backed by investors to crank out copies of what book. I’ll be back right after I go ask Joe’s mom if I can read a different book. [00:29:25] Doug: This anti-gravity book doesn’t have any pictures in it. Bore ring. [00:29:36] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m big time reader and guys still waiting like you for the next Game of Thrones tome. Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. Okay, let’s set the record straight. I heard a few, you snicker when I said I was a big reader at first. It’s not nice. But also B, I’m a hundred percent the best reader you’ve ever met. [00:29:57] Doug: Though it is true that my favorite book is The Checkbook because, man, is it fun to turn words into cash? Am I right on today’s date? Way back during some other era, a guy named Gutenberg brag that he could print out some books making movable type. But what book was it? Gutenberg was backed by investors who really wanted to make sure they got a decent ROI and they insisted he print the most red book. [00:30:26] Doug: So he cranked them out to make sure his checkbook was full. Gutenberg’s book was the Bible, and now two guys who are a revelation for your money. It’s Joe and OG and Oh yeah, Lynn’s here too. [00:30:43] Joe: Guys that surprised me when I found out that, uh, Gutenberg’s printing out the Bible. Not because of religious affiliation, but because of the fact that these investors right, are breathing down my neck and I gotta make sure we sell a few copies. [00:30:58] Doug: It’s a story as old as time. [00:31:00] Joe: It is a story as old as time, what’s going on behind the scenes? Let’s do a TikTok minute. This TikTok minute ties into exactly what we’re talking about. Uh, this was sent in to us by a stacker named Bill. By the way, the talker’s name is also Bill. So Bill, thank you for this and I’m assuming this isn’t Bill who sent it in. [00:31:24] Joe: Len, I’ve been saving this for the last couple weeks because we knew you were coming on, and it really goes with Susie’s third point here, but also the fact that you’re a new retiree and well, this TikTok or Bill’s a new retiree. Let’s listen to what Bill thinks about his first couple years of retirement. [00:31:43] TikTok: If you’ve been watching my videos from the beginning of my retirement, you’ve seen me kind of struggle with like how I perceive the value of my time in retirement. And it started with a need to be doing meaningful, valuable things with my time. And then I got past that and I was like, it doesn’t matter how I spend my time, but I wanna spend it. [00:32:07] TikTok: I don’t wanna save it. I don’t wanna maximize it. I wanna spend my time. And recently it occurred to me. I was trying to figure out like, why is it that I don’t care if I spend two hours changing my oil? Like do I think my time’s worthless? And I realized, I wanna say that I really see my time more as priceless, but that’s kind of a cheesy way to look at it, but it’s the closest I can come because if someone offered me, you know, some amount of money for my time, I, I, I wouldn’t take it unless it was something that. [00:32:44] TikTok: Already would be doing for fun. So I’ve realized that I can’t put a value on my time. [00:32:53] Joe: I love this idea. He continues for another couple minutes, but it really is on the same basic idea, Len, that once he got to retirement, well, you heard him. What do you think about what he’s saying about the value of his time? [00:33:06] Joe: Did you see a change in the way that you see time, the first couple years of retirement? [00:33:11] Len: Oh, well, I, it is just as you get older, you look at time differently. You know, it’s when you’re younger, you have all the time in the world. You get older, you don’t, you have a diminishing number of years left and that becomes more obvious the older you get. [00:33:23] Len: So time is, uh, he might say it’s pr, it’s cheesy, but it’s true. You realize more and more that time is priceless and it’s the most precious thing you do have. [00:33:30] Joe: But he also doesn’t wanna maximize [00:33:32] Len: it. I don’t think it is. I don’t worry about it. [00:33:34] Joe: Yeah, he doesn’t wanna maximize it though. I found that interesting because when you say that this time is priceless and I don’t have that much left, people that are younger than you, uh, listening might go, well wait a minute, then you gotta maximize Lynn every minute then don’t you? [00:33:48] Len: Well, no, I, you know what? There’s leisure and just existing has its value too, you know, hanging around and doing whatever you’re doing. I know time is priceless for me, how I look at it, but I do what I wanna do. I don’t look at it like, oh, you know, I’ve gotta do this, or I’ve gotta maximize every minute. No, I, I don’t look at it that way. [00:34:07] Len: I just, I don’t know. It’s weird. You just look at it and, and, um, I don’t wanna waste time. Um, but how do you wait? What is wasting time? The only wasting time to me is just doing things you don’t wanna do. You’re stuck doing things you don’t wanna do. And that might, for me, it was working at my corporate job after a while. [00:34:24] Len: To me, that was wasting time. That to me, was important to not do. But how I fill that time, I don’t worry about, [00:34:31] Joe: he goes in later in this video to talking about, you know, his earlier thing about changing the oil. And he’s like, other people changed my oil wrong. I enjoy changing my oil. I think it’s great and I don’t want it redone. [00:34:42] Joe: And so for me that’s a fun use of time. [00:34:44] Len: Yes. I absolutely, absolutely. To me it’s more important doing things. Don’t get stuck doing things you don’t want to do, especially as you get older. ’cause then you are wasting those precious minutes. But as to how to properly fill it. Yeah. Oil change or whatever it. [00:34:58] Len: You know, that’s, that’s great. [00:35:00] Joe: There’s this concept though, that he struggled with it, right? For the first couple of years. I know researcher Ken Ald talks a lot about this. It about, for the average person, about 18 months into your retirement, uh, sometimes up to three years later, you suffer this real depression. [00:35:16] Joe: Like, is this it? There’s this euphoria initially, and then there’s this existential crisis. Have you found whether it’s existential crisis or not, but this idea that Bill in the video talks about of struggling with quote, best use of time? [00:35:32] Len: No, I, you know what? One of the things I did before I retired was. [00:35:36] Len: Figuring out, do I have enough things in my life that will keep my time occupied, will keep me occupied doing things. I’ve got so many things I wanna do, and I’m been like, I’ve been trying to, uh, one of the things I’ve been really working on lately is, is I want, one of my goals is to learn a new language or get better at a language. [00:35:52] Len: So I’ve been working very hard on my Spanish the last four or five months, so. I have so many things. My model, railroad, my learning this language, I’ve got projects that I constantly do. My life is so full of things. I don’t worry about that at all. It’s just there’s so much to do, you know? So, but I know people who retire and then they, they come back to work in six months ’cause they’re bored to tears. [00:36:12] Joe: Well, and I wonder OG if it truly is that they’re bored or that they just haven’t, um. Created a new identity like Len has. You know, I was reading a Wall Street Journal column last week where uh, this gentleman used to work at the journal and he called the lack of work quote, a vacuum. He goes, there was this whole place where my identity used to be, and now there’s a vacuum in that spot, which I think OG can really hit some people pretty hard in retirement. [00:36:40] OG: I mean, if you have the opportunity to do. Play testing any of this, you know, like Glen was talking about, whether it’s like you can take a period of time if you have the two week vacation and say like, all right, we’re gonna treat this like it’s retirement time. Like what is, what’s gonna happen if you have the opportunity to do a sabbatical model out what your day is gonna look like? [00:37:02] OG: Because you know that scene, you guys have all seen no Country for Old Men. The movie. [00:37:07] Joe: Yeah, [00:37:08] OG: the very end of the movie. He is retiring, he like, this was his, you know, he’s just worn out, right? And he’s sitting at home. It’s the last scene of the whole movie. He’s sitting at home and he’s eating breakfast. His wife’s like, uh, so whatcha gonna do today? [00:37:22] OG: He’s like, well I thought I might do this. She goes, okay, well I’ve gotta do this. He goes, well maybe I’ll stay and hang out with you. And she just kind of snickers and she’s like, just ’cause you’re retired doesn’t mean I am. Like I got stuff to do still. I think especially if you’re in a relationship and you’ve got somebody else around, that may be a new thing, right? [00:37:38] OG: Like you just being around is like a whole new, like, what are you doing? Like, don’t you have a, don’t you have a place to go? Why are you here right now? It’s lunchtime. This is when I do my thing. Like you’ve had 30 years of this rhythm and now you’re gonna stop getting up at six in the morning and now start getting up at eight and you’re gonna have lunch at home instead of at the office. [00:37:57] OG: And you know, it’s like this whole new thing that you have to get used to. So you should expect, I think just like the author in the Wall Street Journal article, I read the same thing. You should expect it to be chaos for a while. I mean, you go through those different things. We’re we’re tiptoeing our feet into. [00:38:13] OG: Here’s what it’s like to have only two kids at home instead of three. And then when Alex comes home from college, it’s like, why is it so loud here? What is happening? Where’d all our food go? Like, we just bought milk for God’s sake. How was it going? And it’s like, we have another adult at home. And then he goes away and it’s like, oh, it’s quiet. [00:38:29] Joe: Oh, gee’s. Like, where’d all my Woodford go? [00:38:32] OG: Uh, that’s the one thing about this generation. They, they are not drinkers. [00:38:35] Joe: They don’t drink, not doing it. [00:38:37] OG: My middle kid asked me if beer had carbonation in it. That’s [00:38:40] Joe: true. Oh, [00:38:41] OG: really? Oh, really? I didn’t know if that was like, just, he was just putting me on. Yeah. [00:38:44] OG: Like, this’ll really pull Dad, [00:38:45] Joe: dad does beer. Uh. [00:38:47] OG: Sit to bubbly. [00:38:48] Joe: Huh? [00:38:49] OG: But he was just like, it does, ugh, I’ll never drink [00:38:51] Joe: that. I remember coming home from college Oji and having a beer with my dad and it was a hot day. You know, I was home just from the Citadel for the summer, and I remember I just pounded that beer in front of my dad at ad [00:39:04] OG: It’s like, it was like National Lampoons vacation where he like has the beer in the [00:39:07] Joe: rusty, [00:39:07] OG: in the, in the desert. [00:39:09] OG: Rusty like pulls it back and he’s like. [00:39:11] Joe: Yes. It was one of those moments that I remember my dad looking at me the way Chevy Chase looked at Rusty on that video. Like, what, what [00:39:18] OG: well done, sir. Well done. [00:39:20] Joe: Oh, no, no, no. Was not at all well done. It was like, [00:39:22] OG: what’s, it was a, it wasn’t a proud Dad moment. [00:39:24] Joe: It was not a proud dad moment. [00:39:25] Joe: It was like, what the hell is he doing in college moment? [00:39:27] OG: It was the, uh, the modern family taking the daughter out for her 21st birthday and they get a shot of tequila and they’re like, Hey, happy birthday. She like throws it back and everybody looks at her and she goes. Oh, it burns. [00:39:43] Joe: Doug, did you have a comment on this? [00:39:45] Doug: Yeah. You know, I struggle with this whole, we’ve been talking about this for years and I’ve always, it hasn’t sat well with me. This whole figure out what your purpose is before you retire. You have to retire to something. Don’t run away from something. And I think for me it comes down to this and it, I hate to get to Hallmark Cardi, but. [00:40:05] Doug: If you aren’t happy with what you have, you’re not gonna be happy with what you get. So if you’re a person who is needing your current work to fulfill some purpose or hole in your life, yeah, you better figure out some other major thing to be your raison detra when you retire. [00:40:24] OG: English, please, [00:40:25] Doug: man. That is, yeah, and I’ve been thinking long and hard about when do I get to use that one French phrase? [00:40:30] Doug: I know. Besides soup de jour, [00:40:33] OG: it’s the soup of the day, [00:40:33] Doug: but [00:40:34] Joe: delicious. [00:40:34] Doug: Holy crap. That is such a, to me, that feels, it feels like such a. What’s the right word? A trite kind of a, of a purpose that Hollywood has made a, made for us that we have to have some grand life purpose. [00:40:51] Joe: I don’t think that’s the, i, I don’t think that’s the case [00:40:52] Doug: at all. [00:40:52] Doug: Just be happy with what you have. It is possible to retire and be very, very content with your life and not necessarily have a thing that makes you get up at 6:00 AM every day and solve problems for orphans. Don’t need [00:41:07] OG: the rise and grind. [00:41:08] Doug: Yeah. It is so possible to be content and happy with what you have and what you’ve already built outta your life without having some major second or third chapter. [00:41:19] Joe: It is interesting to see what the research says on that and then to get Doug’s take because the research success. [00:41:26] Doug: You sure. [00:41:28] OG: Shot fired. That’s so backhanded. [00:41:30] Joe: I’m just telling you. Let’s [00:41:31] Doug: see how Doug’s wrong. [00:41:32] Joe: I have over the past three years really dug into this. And the research says something completely different. [00:41:40] Joe: So it’s fine that it doesn’t sit well with you because listen, I think, I think that I’m wanting, it could be [00:41:46] OG: that the researchers are only researching people that have a bias toward. Having [00:41:51] Doug: Right. This, [00:41:51] OG: uh, grandiose. Yeah. They didn’t ask [00:41:52] Len: you, Doug, they didn’t ask you at all. [00:41:54] Doug: And the research doesn’t say a hundred percent of the people need this. [00:41:58] Doug: I just don’t want people who don don’t research, need research never says a hundred percent of people don’t need it, don’t have it. [00:42:03] Joe: But you’re trivial. I think. Wait a minute, og. But part of the thing, Doug, is that you’re trivializing a big piece of what is really important that people are solving. Four incorrectly. [00:42:15] Joe: You’re saying be happy. Right? I think and and this came through and we had Benjamin Brant on the show, and he was talking about kind of Len singing off the same song sheet you and OG were singing off earlier, which is even bad Data is good data. Finding out stuff that you don’t like ahead of time before you get to retirement is great data. [00:42:36] Joe: It’s not a failed trip when you go to Florida to investigate the retirement community think you like, and it sucks. That’s phenomenal data and it’s not a waste of time. So figuring out what makes you happy, I think there’s a huge portion of America and maybe of the world that waits to age 65 to figure out what makes me happy. [00:43:00] Doug: But if you’re not happy in Wisconsin, or maybe more accurately if you’re not happy in Ohio. You’re not gonna be happy in Arizona or Florida or anywhere else. So I’m just saying, let’s not put pressure on ourselves to find some externality, to find some thing to do, some place to be. That’s gonna make us happy. [00:43:21] Doug: Don’t put that pressure on yourself in retirement. [00:43:23] Joe: No, but that’s a hundred percent. The point that Bill brings up here is you’ve got this optimization that we’re all searching for, and Bill says that ain’t it. The optimization piece, ain’t it? I mean that’s exactly, I think Len, what you’re talking about too. [00:43:38] Len: Yeah, that is what I’m talking about. To me, it’s not wasting time. So anything that when you’re not wasting time as you get older is, is great. So if you’re sitting there and doing whatever you’re doing and you don’t think you’re wasting your time and you’re enjoying what you’re doing, you’re successful in retirement. [00:43:52] Len: The key is a lot of people don’t know what they aren’t gonna like a hundred percent or it’s not gonna satisfy them in retirement. Like golf, for example. I used to love golf. It fell out of favor with me in the last few years. It’s just something that I didn’t lose. So if I was thinking of golf filling a hole in my retirement life. [00:44:09] Len: That’s gone. That peg that would fill that hole in my retirement is, is no longer working. [00:44:15] OG: After playing golf with Doug several times, I would’ve thought that that would’ve fallen out of favor for him too. But he still goes back to that. Well, he’s, he just loves the beating [00:44:25] Doug: man. I’m taking a whooping today. [00:44:28] Joe: I think this is why Doc G calls it little p purpose. You know, not the Big P purpose. [00:44:34] Doug: You said bp. [00:44:35] Joe: Well, I think Doug, part of your, this doesn’t sit well with me is the fact that you’re taking all this body of research and, and kind of trivializing it because maybe you’ve already solved for that. Maybe you’ve already solved for that. [00:44:47] Joe: But I’ll tell you, the research suggests a lot of people haven’t done that. A lot of people haven’t thought about it that way. They’re too busy thinking about the money. They’re too busy thinking about, I’m gonna have these unicorns and effing rainbows when I get there. And you know, you still show up. So start learning what, what your little p purpose is. [00:45:06] Joe: So, Susie’s last piece on here is to find peace of mind, which is I think, really where this video goes. And Lynn, I was very interested to get your take there so that that resonated with you. [00:45:17] Len: How, how’d I do? Did I do okay? [00:45:19] Joe: Did that resonate with you? [00:45:21] Len: It resonated. [00:45:23] Joe: He’s like, can I be wrong too? [00:45:29] Joe: I’ll link to all these on our show notes, pages stack you Benjamins dot com. Doug, let’s go to you, man. In the back porch. What is going on in this? Stacking Benjamin’s community. It’s crazy. [00:45:41] Doug: Joe, I wanna put a little bit more highlight and focus a spotlight as it were on the articulate Apricot who chose to have a little celebration with all the rest of the basement dwellers [00:45:54] Joe: Apricot [00:45:54] Doug: a couple of weeks ago, [00:45:55] OG: kinda like apricots. [00:45:56] Joe: Apricot apricots. How’s he an apricot? [00:46:00] Doug: I, I don’t know it. I mean, he is owning this. I don’t know if this is a, a handle that Facebook gave him, but he is the articulate apricot. Oh, [00:46:07] Joe: this was his handle. I thought you were calling him an articulate. Apricot. I wanna focus on this articulate apricot, who I’m friends with in the basement. [00:46:19] Len: I know the cunning kumquat. [00:46:20] Doug: He just had one of those, holy cow, check this out. And he decided to share it with the rest of the basement when he or she don’t know. I don’t know if there’s a gender for an apricot. Uh, noticed that today they were a millionaire. That’s [00:46:35] Joe: great. [00:46:35] Doug: This thing, this thing happened and he posted a little screenshot of their net worth at just over a million dollars and I just think that that’s great to celebrate the wins with the basement. [00:46:45] Doug: That’s pretty fun. So congratulations, apricot. [00:46:48] Joe: Well, and that’s not the kinda win that you can share like with your friends at lunch, you know what I mean? But hey, guess what happened to me today? Yeah, I got to a seven figure net worth. Like, it just, it isn’t [00:47:00] Doug: go well. Anything happen the way into work. Right. [00:47:02] Doug: It doesn’t usually, but when you’re hiding behind this dark, mysterious moniker of the articulate apricot, you can say whatever the hell you want. [00:47:10] Joe: Well, and I also think though, being in a community that’s a community like the stacker community, I mean, that’s what everybody’s trying to do. So it’s fantastic led. [00:47:19] Joe: Do you remember the day that you got to seven figures? [00:47:23] Len: I’m still trying to get there, Joe. [00:47:25] Joe: He’s still, he’s, he’s at four. He’s like, once I get past four, [00:47:31] OG: he’s nearing it any day now. [00:47:32] Joe: That’s what we call Coast Fi at the Penso House. Guess what? We can take out $12 a month for the rest of our life. [00:47:43] Joe: You do remember? Oh, you’re still waiting for words to come. I was, I thought you were good. [00:47:48] Len: Yeah. Yes, I do remember. Yeah, it, it is great. It’s fantastic. And unfortunately for me it was like, well that’s good, but it’s not gonna be enough. So you gotta keep going. And that’s the biggest realization. And a million’s a great number. [00:48:01] Len: That’s fantastic. But, uh, I, at least for me, that I was like, Nope, I got a long way to go if I wanna get to where I wanna be. Congratulations, by the way. That’s fantastic. [00:48:12] Joe: It is so fantastic. Uh, what were some of the comments, Doug? [00:48:16] Doug: Well, lots of congratulations as you might expect, and in fact, uh, Jamie said financial milestones can be hard to celebrate with family and friends, since most of us don’t discuss. [00:48:27] Doug: You know, don’t discuss it respectfully. Yeah. But I’m here to say huge congrats. Way to go. Hope you do a little something for yourself to celebrate and Yeah, you’re right Joe. It’s weird. You can, you can discuss that with strangers more easily than you can with friends and family because it just somehow comes off wrong. [00:48:42] Doug: ’cause of the stigma attached to it. [00:48:44] Joe: Are there other things in your life or you can discuss it more with strangers? Than with friends, besides money [00:48:50] Doug: rashes, certain rashes. Yeah. In certain locations on your body. That’s fun to do on Reddit. [00:48:56] Len: Do you guys know the number? I thought I read somewhere that only like 2% or 1% of Americans even have have a, a net worth of a million dollars. [00:49:03] Len: I mean, that it’s really is a excellent milestone to reach. So it’s, you’re in rarefied air for sure. Absolutely. [00:49:09] Joe: Oh. Oh gee. You might know that number offhand. Do you know that percentage of people with a million? My friend [00:49:14] OG: checked GPT will [00:49:15] Joe: ah. Chad, GP t’s gonna say, what an excellent question. I’ve never had a better question. [00:49:21] Joe: You’re brilliant for asking this. [00:49:22] Len: I’m pretty sure I read is 2% or 1%. [00:49:24] Doug: I can tell you that approximately 70% of Americans have a positive net worth. So at least a dollar positive net worth 12%, 12% have a net worth over a million dollars according to a 2022 survey by the Federal Reserve, [00:49:40] OG: uh, excluding primary residents is the two to two point [00:49:43] Doug: a half percent that you said. [00:49:44] Len: Okay. There you go. Okay. There we go. So that’s it. Okay. [00:49:48] Joe: Yeah. Well, congratulations. That is a big thing and I love that we’re able to pause and, and help you celebrate that. Uh, what is it? Delicious, apricot. Intelligent, uh, [00:50:00] Doug: articulate Joe. [00:50:01] Joe: Articulate, [00:50:01] Doug: articulate. Try it sometime. [00:50:05] Joe: Something I am not apparently articulate. [00:50:09] Joe: Uh, we are talking money all across the United States. I’m gonna be in Seattle coming up the first weekend of. March, I’m gonna be beaten up with our stacker community there to join our meetup group in Seattle, stacky Benjamins dot com slash bad, which is our Benjamin’s after dark meetup group. We also have groups in Boston and the Twin Cities in Mankato and, uh, Tucson got together. [00:50:35] Joe: Doug, you see that? [00:50:37] Doug: Finally dead. Yep. They had a great night at Topgolf and I’m sure there is more great stuff waiting for ’em. Maybe they’ll go over to, uh, the Desert Museum. Greatest museum in the United States. Meet over [00:50:48] Joe: there. It a [00:50:48] Doug: hundred percent is the, the [00:50:49] Joe: best museum in the us That museum. The Desert Sono Museum. [00:50:53] Doug: Yep. Yep. That’s, that’s top shelf stuff. [00:50:56] Joe: That is my favorite museum. I’m not kidding. [00:50:59] Doug: No, I know it, it is, it’s probably mine as well. It’s the best blend of feeling like you’re out in nature, but also it’s a, you know, it’s a little bit of a zoo. It’s also a museum about the geology of the area. It’s a little bit of everything, and it’s just a gorgeous, gorgeous setting. [00:51:14] Doug: It’s the only thing better than the Henry Ford Greenfield Village in Detroit is that this [00:51:17] Joe: weird hybrid between [00:51:19] Doug: Zoo [00:51:19] Joe: Museum. Yeah. Super. Len, uh, have you been there before? [00:51:23] Len: No, I haven’t. I’ve been to Tucson, but I haven’t been to the, uh, the museum. I’ll have to check it out. [00:51:28] Joe: It’s fantastic, but I can’t wait to see Tucson, which you guys have been. [00:51:32] Joe: I haven’t [00:51:32] OG: been there either, Joe. [00:51:33] Joe: Uh, og have you been there? [00:51:34] OG: I’ve been to Tucson. I haven’t been to the zoo. I’ll have to check it out. [00:51:37] Joe: Well, I, I, I’d heard that recently from somebody else. Mr. Penso, thanks for hanging out with us today, man. [00:51:45] Len: Ah, it’s great to be back. Uh, thank you for having me. [00:51:48] Joe: Well, we are definitely going to, um. [00:51:52] Joe: Be hearing a lot more from Mr. Penso over the next few months. So can’t wait for those appearances [00:51:56] OG: so we don’t get his keys back. Let him keep ’em still. [00:52:01] Joe: I think we can let him keep the keys. [00:52:03] Len: Thank [00:52:03] OG: you. Ah, we don’t have to change the locks. Nevermind. Cancel the locksmith. [00:52:08] Joe: By the way, Len, I also saw, uh, some of our stackers buying your new book. [00:52:13] Len: Yeah, so thank you all for buying it. I appreciate it. It’s, uh, true money stories. You can find it@amazon.com. [00:52:21] Joe: True money stories put in Len Penso and, um, you get all kinds of crazy money stories that all start with, by the way, I can’t believe this happened to me. [00:52:33] Len: Yeah. Right. [00:52:34] Joe: This never happens to me. Never. [00:52:36] Joe: Alright, that’s gonna do it for today, Doug. You got it From here, man. What should we have learned on today’s show? [00:52:40] Doug: What should we have learned today? First, take some advice from Susie Orman’s. New take and maybe our original one, solving for Retirement. You don’t need to accumulate big bucks or work forever, but you do need a plan and to strategize how your pile of assets and your government benefits will work together to create the best outcome. [00:53:03] Doug: That’s the key to winning second investments. Those are important, but your time now, that’s invaluable and today’s big lesson. I love today’s trivia question about Gutenberg’s Bible. Hmm. Hope you did too. But I wish he would’ve written a book about mountains. ’cause I find those to be cliffhangers. I’ll, uh, yeah, I’ll just show myself out. [00:53:28] Doug: Thanks to the amazing Len Benzo for sharing his expertise with us Today, you’ll find Len’s Unique takes on life at his website, len benzo.com. This show is the Property of SP podcast LLC, copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy. You’ll find out about our awesome team at Stacking Benjamins dot com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. [00:53:56] Doug: Come say hello and oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug, and we’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show. [00:55:09] Joe: You know what everybody’s wondering, do you spend your day tomorrow making the crazy squirrels do crazy things up behind the house? Is that, is that how the Penso spend? [00:55:20] Len: Well, let me, let me, since we’re talking about the squirrels and then here, here’s something we were talking, and I’ll tie this in with our retirement discussion. [00:55:26] Len: One thing that I did not model in my retirements was all the money I’m spending on these damn squirrels and, uh, other animals in, uh, I’ve got the wife, uh, feeds the squirrels. I, I, I bet you we spend 40 bucks a month on nuts for these squirrels. And, uh, she also does hummingbirds. So we have the hummingbird feeders and we’re going through 10 pounds of sugar. [00:55:52] Len: Every, uh, uh, every month, 10 pounds is right down feeding the hummingbirds. So, uh, yeah, that’s a, that’s an expense that, uh, I’ve had that I did never planned for. So 50, 60 bucks for squirrels and hummingbirds. And then you got the dog who’s, uh, who. He’s on these special plans now where they have these bark boxes and stuff where, you know, you don’t just buy dog food for a dog anymore. [00:56:15] Len: You buy the toys in the box that comes every month. You subscribe. There’s another 40 bucks a month. Really? Oh yeah. Wait [00:56:21] Joe: a minute. Hold. Hold on a second. [00:56:22] Len: So there’s a hundred bucks just for my dog. The hummingbirds and the squirrels every month [00:56:27] Joe: there is a, there is a special dog toy subscription service. [00:56:32] Len: Yes. Dog toys with treats too. It’s, it’s like there’s a couple companies, chewy I think has one, uh, bark. I think the company’s bark. I think we get [00:56:40] Doug: BarkBox. Yep, [00:56:41] Len: BarkBox. So we’re getting bark boxes. And let me tell you, it is, it’s great. It’s a great service. If you can afford to do it. It’s funny, the dog gets like three toys or two toys every month and then he gets, uh, some treats, bags of treats and uh, and he looks forward to it so the dog knows. [00:56:58] Len: He, he knows when the box comes and he gets all excited for it. What a business, uh, model, whoever thought of that. ’cause they’ve got, they’ve got a lot of this paying 30, 40 picks a month. [00:57:07] Joe: Well, yeah, I’ve known Doug for a long time. There’s no way in hell Doug is doing a subscription. With his dogs? [00:57:15] Doug: Nope, I’m not. [00:57:15] Doug: We have two dogs. I’ve had two dogs for like almost 20 years now or something. And no, we’re not, we’re just, we’ve got regular subscription orders from Amazon. The dog Dinos are, are inbound on the, on the weekly and they shred ’em and Mrs. Neighbor just keeps on buying more, but I’m not doing a subscription service. [00:57:37] Doug: No way in hell. [00:57:38] Joe: Speaking of subscriptions, did your parents do subscriptions for you when you were kids? Did you have any subscriptions where stuff would come to the house when you were a kid? [00:57:45] OG: My dad had a subscription when I was a kid, but I wasn’t allowed to see it. [00:57:49] Joe: It’s a whole different thing. I [00:57:50] Len: had National Geographic, my, my parents got me National Geographic subscription. [00:57:54] Joe: Well, I got Highlights magazine. Did you guys get highlights now? Yes. [00:57:57] Len: Highlights too. That was a great magazine. I loved. Highlights. Yes. [00:58:01] Joe: I was so excited, man. Every month when highlights would show up. So [00:58:04] Len: fun. So fun. [00:58:06] opener: They still have Highlights magazine. That was a great magazine. [00:58:09] Joe: I saw a Highlights magazine at Target, but it wasn’t the normal magazine. [00:58:13] Joe: It was like one of those one-off things, you know, like just what all your letters or numbers were. And it surprised me ’cause I haven’t seen highlights in forever. But that was great. We got Ranger. Rick, did you get Ranger Rick? [00:58:26] Len: Uh, that was, look, I was a nerd and even I didn’t get Ranger Rick. That was, I didn’t wanna be cop with Ranger Rick. [00:58:33] Doug: We got National Geographic World, which was For kids. For [00:58:37] Joe: Kids, right. [00:58:38] Doug: Yeah. It was basically Nat, Nat Geo for Kids. But I got World Magazine. I loved it, loved that magazine. I, Joe, here’s an answer to your question. Yes. Highlights Magazine is still published. It has been in circulation since 1946. [00:58:51] Len: Yeah. [00:58:51] Joe: 46. [00:58:52] Joe: That’s [00:58:52] Len: a great magazine for kids. Yes. [00:58:54] Joe: Great stuff. Well, and now we just taught you parents how to, how to spend money in so many different ways. [00:59:03] Doug: This all started with learning about how much Len spends on his nuts did, and somehow we got onto kids magazines. [00:59:13] Joe: I was just, I was curious when you went into subscriptions, but, uh, happy birthday, Mr. [00:59:17] Joe: Penso. [00:59:18] Len: Yes. And happy birthday to you, Mr. Joe.
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