Mrs. Dow Jones on How to Become a Future Rich Person (Without Giving Up Your Life) SB1835

Haley Sacks didn’t grow up knowing what a 401k was. She was nannying for a kid named Winthrop on the Upper East Side, doing comedy at night, and getting paid cash under the table. Then she sat in an HR meeting and her eyes glazed over — and she decided that was the last time she’d be caught unprepared with her own money. Today she’s Mrs. Dow Jones, with millions of followers and a new book. The basement finally got her in the chair, and she did not hold back.

What You’ll Walk Away With

• The “future rich person” framework — what separates people quietly building wealth from everyone else performing it
• Why the biggest wealth trap isn’t overspending — it’s the psychological pull of looking rich before you are
• How automation is the real secret behind Haley’s path to millionaire status — and why willpower alone was never going to get her there
• The action movie analogy that finally makes the debt-versus-investing debate make sense — and which one you tackle first
• Why your fixed expenses might be the actual problem — and the two levers you can pull when the math doesn’t work
• The “money date” habit that keeps Haley on track — and how to make it something you’ll actually do every month
• What a mise en place approach to your finances looks like — and the four accounts every future rich person needs in place before anything else
• Why cutting spending has a floor but earning more doesn’t — and how to think creatively about your income ceiling
• The mortgage volatility conversation hiding in this episode — including OG’s take on where rates actually belong historically and why “date the rate” might be the most useful three words in real estate right now
• Why comparison is derailing more financial plans than bad investments ever could

Why This Matters Now

If you’re in your 40s and you still feel like the millionaire milestone belongs to someone else’s story — someone who started earlier, earned more, or just had better instincts — this episode is a direct challenge to that belief. Haley Sacks didn’t have better instincts. She had a glazed-over HR meeting and a determination not to be caught unprepared twice. The foundation she built after that moment is exactly what she walks through today.

From the Basement

Mrs. Dow Jones herself — Haley Sacks — finally makes it down the stairs and does not disappoint. Joe and OG close the episode with a Wall Street Journal headline on mortgage rate volatility and what it actually means for anyone trying to buy, move, or refinance right now. OG lands what may be the cleanest take of the season: when should you borrow money? When you need to borrow money. Doug arrives with Dow Jones trivia about the longest-tenured company in the index, which turns out to have been added in 1932 and is hiding in plain sight on every household shelf. Whether the basement scoreboard had anything to do with Procter & Gamble is a question best answered with your earbuds in.

Resources Mentioned

• Stacking Benjamins Community — stackingbenjamins.com/basement
• Future Rich Person by Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones) — pre-order with $700 in bonuses at mrsdowjones.com/book; releases May 12thMrs. Dow Jones on Instagram and YouTube — @MrsDowJonesMrs. Dow Jones podcast — Financial Therapy
• Wall Street Journal mortgage volatility article by Veronica Dagher and Ben Eisen
• Stacking Benjamins Vault — stackingbenjamins.com/vault
• Stacking Benjamins Meetups — stackingbenjamins.com/bad

Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201

Enjoy!

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Our Headline

• There’s Extreme Volatility in the Mortgage Market. See How It’s Playing Out. (Wall Street Journal)

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Other Mentions

• Future Rich Person | Mrs. Dow Jones
• Stacking Benjamins Vault
• Stacking Benjamins Basement: Your Guide To Better Money Habits | Facebook
• Benjamins After Dark – Join a Meetup Group

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Join Us Friday!

Tune in on Friday when we’re breaking down what the 1% actually does with their money, what you can copy, and what will absolutely blow up your financial plan if you try it at home.

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Written by: Kevin Bailey

Miss our last show? Listen here: Index Investing 101: Stop Picking Funds and Start Building the Mix That Actually Works (SB1834)

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] opener: Spider pig. Spider pig does whatever a spider pig does. Can he swing from a web? No, we can’t. He’s a pig. Look out. He is a spider pig.

[00:00:19] Doug: Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[00:00:33] Doug: I am Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. Today we welcome one of the biggest names in personal finance here to talk about how to master the money basics. We welcome the woman we know as Haley Sachs, but you know as Mrs. Dow Jones Plus in our headline segment. If you’ve been looking to borrow money lately, you already know this, but interest rates have been all over the place this year.

[00:00:56] Doug: So how do you deal with costs that are more difficult than ever to predict? We’ll share some strategies. And don’t you worry if you didn’t get Monday’s trivia answer. We’ll see if we can help you even the score with another fun question. This one I know you’ll get. And now two guys who get that financial independence has to start somewhere.

[00:01:16] Doug: So how about right now? It’s Joe. Oh and oh. Ju Ju. 

[00:01:24] Joe: Hey there, stackers. Welcome back to The Greatest Money Show on Earth. I am Joe Saul Sea High. You made it. You’re here. Sit back, relax, grab some paper because this is the show you want to take notes on because Doug is, you so eloquently said, Mrs. Dow Jones finally coming down to Mom’s basement.

[00:01:43] Joe: So if you’re playing the Bingo card, when are they gonna get them? When are they gonna get them? When are they gonna get them? We call her Hailey Sax. You call her Mrs. Dow Jones joining us. But the person who’s always joining us on Mondays, Wednesdays, in Fridays, he is the star of this show. So you already got that.

[00:02:01] Joe: This is the center square on your Bingo card. If you’re playing the Stacky Benjamins game, Mr. OG is here. How are you man? 

[00:02:07] OG: I’m, I’m the star of the show. Okay. 

[00:02:09] Joe: Of course. Yeah. Duh. 

[00:02:10] Doug: I take umbrage. 

[00:02:13] Joe: Gonna file a complaint. Doug’s pieces of paper in the complaint box have stuffed that every episode there’s a complaint from Doug about something that hurt his feelings and we need to have a discussion about.

[00:02:29] Joe: But the thing we’re gonna be discussing today is turning you into future millionaire, because that is what Haley Sacks wants to talk about today. So if you’re not to a million dollars yet. If you think you could have gotten there quicker, if you are a millionaire, well, we’re gonna talk about the foundation and, uh, how to get rolling toward a million.

[00:02:48] Joe: So if you know somebody else who needs to get rolling the right direction, man, this woman is a dynamo and I’m super happy that she’s here. Before we talk to Haley Sachs, who has a couple million followers on her Instagram channel, uh, hundreds of thousands of people following her on YouTube and on her other channels, we’ve got a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on.

[00:03:11] Joe: The first is the vault. You know, you’ve got 15 apps on your phone, one that helps you with privacy, one that helps you with subscriptions, one that helps you with your budget, one that helps you with your net worth tracking. You got all these different. Apps, why wouldn’t you have them all in the vault together?

[00:03:29] Joe: Keep your identity safe, keep your credit score secure, and build wealth for the future. Stacking Benjamins dot com slash vault gets you there. Built by two great teams, the team at Array, which helps lots of banks and credit unions, and now helps you and the team at Budget Simple that has worked extensively with brands to help them create the best budgeting software that you can find that you’ll also find, by the way, at lots of banks and credit unions.

[00:03:55] Joe: And now you’ll find at, uh, the Vault. We put the two teams together to make this cool Swiss Army knife stacky Benjamins dot com slash vault. All right, we have a couple more sponsors now that we’re gonna hear from Haley. Then we only have a couple more for the rest of the episode, so we’re gonna hear from these two.

[00:04:12] Joe: And then Mrs. Dow Jones coming down to the basement, Haley Sacks.

[00:04:23] Joe: And I am super happy. We finally, finally have this woman coming down the stairs to mom’s basement. Have a seat. Hailey Sacks. Nobody knows her as Hailey. Everybody knows her as Mrs. Dow Jones. How are you? 

[00:04:36] Haley: Well, I’m better now that I’m finally getting to see your digs. Like this is crazy. It’s so nice that your mom lets us record here.

[00:04:43] Joe: I know. No rent Hailey. No rent. No rent. 

[00:04:47] Haley: See, that’s future rich person behavior. 

[00:04:49] Joe: That is, I’m on Future rich person team already. And you know what’s funny is you dedicate your brand new book, which I’m super excited about, to your parents who you write, right in the dedication. You say they gave you everything except financial literacy.

[00:05:05] Joe: It’s the same thing with me. Like I got all this love and support and no idea what a, what a 401k was. I feel like a lot of us were raised to be good people, but not good with with money. 

[00:05:17] Haley: A hundred percent. And I think that it’s like from two places. One is they just don’t know that maybe they were never taught and so they’ve never really thought about money, so they’re not gonna teach their children.

[00:05:30] Haley: But I think there’s another part of it too, where if your parents grew up in a situation where money. Was really stressful then for their kids, they want to avoid it almost to save you that strain. 

[00:05:46] Joe: Yeah. To be protective, like, no, no, no, you, you don’t need to worry about this. I’ll worry about it. 

[00:05:51] Haley: Yeah. Like as though it’s a gift, but then you don’t realize that you’re causing generational trauma.

[00:05:56] Haley: So mom and dad, you gotta perk up. 

[00:05:58] Joe: And you know what, you tell your story. You are in this HR meeting, and immediately you’re like, uh, wait a minute. What’s going on? You all of a sudden realize, I have no idea what any of this stuff means. Take me to that moment. What’s going on in your head? 

[00:06:12] Haley: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:13] Haley: So I had like my first big girl job when I got outta college. I hit the ground running in New York City trying to become a comedian. And as anyone pursuing an artistic career knows that means that you are late at night working on your craft. And then during the day, usually holding a lot of smaller gigs.

[00:06:35] Haley: So. I worked in a Pilates studio behind the front desk. I was a nanny for a kid named Winthrop on Upper, upper East Side. 

[00:06:42] Joe: His name by the way, Hailey had to be Winthrop. It had to be, 

[00:06:46] Haley: it had to be Winthrop. And it like, the fact, I know I didn’t realize it then, but it was central casting. Right. You know, I just had all these little jobs that I was, you know, running around doing.

[00:06:56] Haley: I was on a W nine and I didn’t have a full-time role where they were ever asking me about benefits or health insurance. So I sort of skirted that issue, not really even knowing that it was an issue, because at that point I didn’t have any financial literacy and I was not future planning at all. And it really was just sort of like paycheck to paycheck.

[00:07:15] Haley: And then a lot of times cash to cash. Because, you know, babysitters get paid under the table a lot of the times, right? Yeah. And so stuck that in my pocket. But then I got this job for Lauren Michaels, who started SNL, which. Was a dream. As someone who was pursuing comedy, obviously I wanted to do such a good job and you know, finally my parents were proud of me.

[00:07:37] Haley: I had a real job. It was incredible. And so I show up the first day, and as any good HR manager would, they asked me about my 401k contributions. They asked me which health insurance coverage I was interested in, and my eyes just glazed over. And I got so anxious because I realized that I had no idea how to answer any of these questions.

[00:08:01] Haley: And I was terrified of doing it wrong because these seem like really big decisions that certainly I could not be held responsible to make. And so that was sort of my aha money moment where I was like, okay, I have to actually start taking this seriously because I’m taking this job really seriously and they’re not gonna take me seriously if I can’t show up as an adult who can answer these questions.

[00:08:27] Joe: What I love about you is you go home and you study it right away. You’re like, okay, I’m not gonna look dumb in two. Meaning like it’s okay to look dumb in one meeting, but in two meetings, you know, there’s all these resources where you can go get this stuff, which drives me crazy because a lot of the time people are like, I don’t know where to look for it.

[00:08:42] Joe: You’ve got one of the most amazing channels. I was telling you as we were getting ready to record how much I love your advice around the Iran conflict and about the fact that, you know what, cyber warfare is a big part of this. Button down your stuff like button down your identity, button down your credit because you know you don’t wanna be on the front line along with a lot of other people.

[00:09:04] Haley: Yeah, a hundred percent. I feel like not enough people know that you can just have your credit frozen all of the time, and that’s the right way to live, and it’s very easy to unlock if you want to open a new credit card or you need to apply for a loan. But it gives you so much security and yeah, unfortunately in 2026, any real war is always coupled with cyber war, so that is something you gotta lock down right away.

[00:09:30] Haley: But yes, I’m sad that I didn’t know at that point about your podcast because you were podcasting at that point. And I would’ve loved listening. Maybe it would’ve taken me on a different path, but instead I found myself on YouTube and basically was met with videos of men in t-shirts with whiteboards trying to explain.

[00:09:52] Haley: Investing jargon unsuccessfully. And it just sort of looked like they had never been through puberty, let alone like made any money. So I was not impressed. And then the content that was more towards women felt so oppressive to a glamorous, fun lifestyle, which is something that I think had really also held me back from taking financial responsibility because I thought that it just meant a life of austerity that I was going to have to live, you know, eating ramen nonstop and like, you know, no more manicures and no travel and just like that it was from one extreme to the next.

[00:10:28] Joe: You were talking about even like reuse your paper towels, I think. 

[00:10:31] Haley: Yes, exactly. Those were the videos that I saw for women that was like, you should wash and reuse your paper towels. And I was like, certainly this is not the financial wisdom of our age. Like I either have to listen to these guys who I, you know, have no interest in, and who are so confusing and who just make investing seem more confusing.

[00:10:51] Haley: Or I have to listen to this content towards women, which just seems like so sad. And I wanted to learn about money from someone who could make it feel glamorous and most importantly, aspirational to be good with money, which is something that I think is so missing from the culture and is why I made Mrs.

[00:11:12] Haley: Dow Jones is that like we should admire. We always, we admire billionaires, we admire people once they’ve made it. But the person who is on their way, who’s building, who’s cutting back, who’s mindful, who’s investing, like why isn’t that aspirational? Why isn’t that what we’re all looking towards as like, oh, that’s what we wanna be like.

[00:11:32] Haley: And so I didn’t see that. So then I became it, and that’s how business Dow Jones was born. 

[00:11:37] Joe: And this is what I find empowering. Is any of our stackers listening? If you’re new to all this and you think, I’m not gonna get there, I mean, Hailey, you went from, I don’t understand a 401k, but I can break down a Taylor Swift relationship timeline.

[00:11:50] Joe: Like I’ve got the whole Taylor Swift relationship timeline down, but I don’t know what a 401k was to reversing that to now you’re one of the main people teaching it online. Like you can do this, you can get there. And in fact, it’s funny you also say something that whatever you do badly with money, people that are future rich person out there, I did worse.

[00:12:12] Joe: Like you didn’t log into your credit cards ordering Nobu for breakfast. I found that funny. It’s like rock, rock, shrimp tempura and cold brew. Like that’s not in most financial plans. I don’t know if you know that. 

[00:12:25] Haley: I mean, it should be because they pair really well together. But no, I mean, that’s what I always say is like, I think that so many financial experts, it seems like that they were born to do the, like they, you know, they seem like those 10 year olds who have lemonade stands and are flipping the profits into the market.

[00:12:42] Haley: And, you know, Warren Buffet bought his first stock when he was 11 or 12. And it’s always, those are always the people who are teaching about money. It’s people who seem to always have a knack for it and like almost like a superpower. And so for me it’s like, no, I am. Just like you and I’m patient. Zero. And if I’m able to get here to the other side, then you can too.

[00:13:04] Haley: And by the way, it’s beautiful. It’s so much better than living with the wool over your eyes. And I’m empowered. I can afford an amazing, beautiful life. And I’m able to help a lot of people through my advice because I think that, yeah, it’s hard to find a teacher who you feel like won’t really judge you and who breaks it down in terms that you understand.

[00:13:25] Haley: And also, I feel like it doesn’t have to be so serious. Like, you’re fun too, Joe. Like, it’s like, why does it always have to feel like this intense medical drama whenever we’re talking about our finances? It’s like, no, we can have fun. There’s levity. ’cause that was the biggest thing when I started my financial journey, is I was like, oh, I’ve been lied to.

[00:13:45] Haley: It’s actually not that hard. Oh, all this time I thought that I can’t do this, that it’s way over my head, that I need to have someone else help me. I, my dad should do it for me. Or maybe I’ll find like a guy who can do it. And then I was like, wow, damn. This is actually really simple. And I think that’s also why women are such good investors because we get it.

[00:14:06] Haley: We’re like, oh, this is simple. We got this. 

[00:14:08] Joe: Yeah, focus on the foundation instead of the guy who hasn’t been through puberty that you just talked about. Don’t worry about all the stuff he’s putting on that whiteboard. Worry about getting the basics. You make a big point of the fact that, you know what kind of holds us back is not the fact that we can’t get this.

[00:14:24] Joe: It’s that we’re obsessed with looking rich instead of being rich. And that really hit me because I started thinking about what drives that behavior. It feels like there’s this whole economy that’s built on, don’t check my bank account, just look at my outfit. What is the most common looking rich trap that you think most of us fall into before we start going down a Mrs.

[00:14:48] Joe: Dow Jones, future rich person Highway. 

[00:14:51] Haley: I mean, it happened to me. I think that it’s like the designer purchase. You know, if you wanna look rich, there’s no quicker route. Than just buying something that has some sort of logo on it. Like for me it was, I bought a Louis Vuitton monogrammed bag, by the way, from eBay.

[00:15:10] Haley: So I’m sure that it was like fake and then I couldn’t afford my rent. But it was like I had gotten a first paycheck and I was like, I feel good. I’m rich now. Let me stunt on everyone and get this back. And I think that that is the same for most people, especially with online culture. Because the truth is we live in this golden age of finance where from our phones.

[00:15:37] Haley: We can invest so much easier than any other generation. We can check our bank statements, our credit card statements, like we can be on top of our money and grow our money in the most democratized way now because of the digital age. But with that has also come so much distraction and advertisement of what to spend the money on.

[00:15:59] Haley: So, you know, our parents’ generation saw 500 ads a day and we see at least 5,000. That’s a huge influx. And not to mention on social media now everything is shoppable. So if you see that influencer that you admire wearing a new outfit, ’cause they’re always wearing a new outfit within two minutes with Apple Pay, you can buy what they bought and then you know, have that feeling of what feels like their life for a second because obviously.

[00:16:30] Haley: The core human condition is that sometimes we wanna escape our own lives. Spending sometimes feels like an easy way to do that. 

[00:16:37] Joe: It’s like the friction is gone either way. You made the point. We can invest very quickly if we want to, but we can also get the hell into debt very quickly if we want to. It’s like you gotta decide what team you’re gonna play on, 

[00:16:49] Haley: play on.

[00:16:50] Haley: Yeah. You have to decide. But I also think that you need to create systems around it too, because I find that a lot of impulse spending is really just from a lack of emotional regulation. It’s when you’re sad or when you’re tired, or when you haven’t eaten in eight hours or when you’re not your best. It is a way to have that dopamine hit, and so just be able to create pauses between you and that spending.

[00:17:18] Haley: Can really help. And then also creating systems around your online content diet so that you are unsubscribing from newsletters that really cause you to spend, or influencers that make you feel bad about yourself. And so you’re always spending money or removing Apple pay from your phone. Like I actually think the key to financial success is building in more friction.

[00:17:40] Haley: Like you said, frictionless. I’m like bring on the friction, bring it on. Like that’s what helps you stay rich and get rich and become a future rich person. 

[00:17:49] Joe: That’s so interesting, the fact that in this case, friction is a great thing, like eliminate the friction on investing, but on the spending side, creating that friction is pretty powerful.

[00:17:58] Joe: Let’s get into, we’ve talked about it a few times. We’ve said the words future rich person, I wanna play a very quick game of future rich person or not. So I’m gonna say the phrase. You tell me. Future rich person or not ready? 

[00:18:10] Haley: Yes. 

[00:18:10] Joe: Future rich person or not waiting for a money miracle, 

[00:18:14] Haley: not 

[00:18:14] Joe: future rich person.

[00:18:15] Joe: Or not marrying rich as a strategy, 

[00:18:18] Haley: not 

[00:18:20] Joe: future rich person or not buying stuff. You can’t afford to impress people. 

[00:18:26] Haley: Ooh, that’s a hard one. Not

[00:18:31] Joe: uh, one more future rich person. Or not 14 blushes. Zero in your 401k. 

[00:18:36] Haley: Not, but you’re gonna have great RO cheeks. 

[00:18:40] Joe: You’ll be broke with phenomenal cheeks. 

[00:18:42] Haley: You’ll be broke, but looking good, 

[00:18:44] Joe: those are all knots. Great job. What does a future rich person do differently? Hailey? 

[00:18:50] Haley: A future rich person enjoys their life now, but also sets their future self up because you have to always be thinking about where you’re going because finance is so based on time.

[00:19:04] Haley: Financial success is based on time in the market. Which I’m sure your listeners are very aware of. ’cause you know, they listen to you Joe Smart Cookie. But you know, and so being a future rich person is really being able to enjoy today while planning for tomorrow. 

[00:19:19] Joe: You share some of these, a lot of what your fans have gone through, these aha money moments.

[00:19:26] Joe: And these were a kick in the gut, Hailey, as I was reading them. Some of them just to share a few with our stackers. 

[00:19:31] Haley: They’re real. 

[00:19:32] Joe: Oh, they’re horrible. Yeah. And they’re just life hitting all of us. 

[00:19:37] Haley: Yep. A hundred percent. 

[00:19:38] Joe: By the way, I uh, was distracted because you’ve got the EBITDA mug. 

[00:19:41] Haley: Yes. I’m gonna send you one.

[00:19:43] Joe: Thank you for people not watching on uh, YouTube. Haley’s got the EBITDA mug, which is fantastic. 

[00:19:50] Haley: And Joe has a mug from Greece ’cause he, I do budgeted wisely and went on vacation. 

[00:19:55] Joe: I took the EBITDA and I made it work for me. ’cause I was listening to Mrs. Dow Jones channel. 

[00:20:00] Haley: Well, there’s a girl in the book who went to Japan on her high yield savings account interest.

[00:20:04] Joe: Which is the point, right? 

[00:20:06] Haley: That is the point. 

[00:20:07] Joe: Not having more Benjamins, but living a Benjamin lifestyle, $60,000 of healthcare rehab that wasn’t covered $135,000 in student loans, all of a sudden realized she had $135,000 in student loans. Somebody who said, I yolo in a ha to a coin, this one really killed me and lost 4,000 bucks.

[00:20:29] Joe: Many of us, you had your aha moment. I had my aha moment. Do we have to go through this valley of death or can we get ahead of it? 

[00:20:38] Haley: I think that a valley of death is not such a bad thing, you know, like out of the ashes, the phoenix does rise. But I do think that it sort of depends on your disposition. I’m the kind of person where I, I told you before, Joe, like if you tell me that the stove is hot, I’m not gonna believe you.

[00:20:54] Haley: I need to touch it and get burned. Like that’s just me. I learned through experience, but that doesn’t mean that if you haven’t had an aha money moment, you should go seek one out because like, don’t go get yourself into a lot of debt and like, 

[00:21:05] Joe: I need to know what this feels like. Right? 

[00:21:07] Haley: Yeah, no, if you could avoid it, please do.

[00:21:10] Haley: I did not have that luxury, but, and I don’t think many people do, but what I talk about really is the shift. And I think that especially when you’re in like your twenties and your thirties where you’re growing up and you’re with your friends and it feels really. Fun and easy and carefree finances and you sort of feel like everyone’s on the same page as you, and no one’s really planning for the future.

[00:21:33] Haley: And you’re all just sort of, you know, yo lowing. And then you look up and you realize, oh my gosh. Like how are they affording having a kid wait, they’re buying a house. How’d they buy a house? Oh wait. They’re starting their own business, and you have this moment where you realize that everyone else has sort of been diligently becoming future rich people, but no one gave you the memo.

[00:21:59] Haley: And so that is also a aha money moment, I think for many too, where they realize, Ooh, maybe I’m a little bit behind. 

[00:22:05] Joe: Yeah. You start to feel it. The stuff we’ve covered so far, stackers has been really the foundational stuff to a lot of the tactics that are in your book, on your channel, on your new podcast.

[00:22:17] Haley: Yeah. Financial team gotta come on. 

[00:22:19] Joe: Absolutely. I think just based on this, Hailey, we’d have a, we’d have a great time, let’s get there a little bit. We’re obviously just gonna be able to cover a couple foundational things today. Like we pack a travel bag for when we take the trip to Greece, there are some things we need.

[00:22:35] Joe: What are some of the accounts you think that might be things that we need to make sure that we set up if we’re beginning this journey to our becoming a future rich person? 

[00:22:43] Haley: Well, I talk a lot about in the book, like, you know, on Instagram when you watch Chefs Cook and they always have all of their ingredients in little Bowls and they’re putting the bowls in the pot and you’re like, okay, I would never do that at home.

[00:22:57] Haley: But it looks so great that they have everything chopped before. Great. So that’s called Meison Plus, which is a French term that I borrowed. ’cause obviously I love the way that they kiss. And so I talk about that with your finances, where before you even start cooking, you need to make sure that you have all your little ingredients set up so that you’re able to successfully build your financial structure.

[00:23:18] Haley: Because so much of financial success is about systems and structure. It’s not about willpower. It’s not about being super smart and reading the Wall Street Journal every day. It’s literally just about setting yourself up so that you’re infallible and no matter what happens around you in your life, you are not gonna fail because you’ve got it all your systems.

[00:23:38] Haley: Where we start with is one, having a really solid bank account, which. I think a lot of people just have the same bank account that they have from like their college fair. You know, they gave them a free pen and they don’t realize that, oh, maybe they’re getting charged crazy fees. Actually I hate the app.

[00:23:54] Haley: Like there’s just a lot of hidden nefarious things that can happen with banks. So I, uh, encourage people to look critically at their bank account. ’cause you should love your bank account and there’s lots of great banks out there now, especially online banks that are giving great rates. And then you also need a high yield savings account, which I’m sure you talk about a lot too, which is just a higher yield place to put your emergency fund and any short term savings, uh, that is separate from your regular bank so you don’t really see it.

[00:24:21] Haley: And then on top of that, you know, you’ll build in investment accounts and you know, all of your retirement accounts and things like that. But we start with the checking account and the high yield savings account because they’re for sort of like the baseline account structure that every person needs in their life.

[00:24:39] Joe: People start out, they got debt and they wanna begin investing, which one comes first? 

[00:24:45] Haley: So I talk about this in the book, like in those action movies where someone is in a fight scene and the building is on fire and someone is attacking them, and you’re like, what are they gonna do? Are they gonna deal with the fire or are they gonna, you know, fight this attacker off?

[00:25:01] Haley: And the truth is, when you have debt and you don’t have an emergency fund, it feels like that you’ve got things coming at from all directions. But you have to leave the building first, avoid the fire, and then you can deal with the attacker. Because if you deal with the attacker and the building burns down, you know, no one’s winning.

[00:25:21] Haley: So that I say that you need to start with your emergency fund. That is the first thing you need to do. Put that oxygen mask on first. Get that six months in a high yield savings account. Even if you have high interest rate debt, just pay the minimum while you’re saving that emergency fund. That is your first priority.

[00:25:39] Haley: And then once that is all stacked up Stacking Benjamins, then you can focus on paying off your high interest rate debt. And I have a really great method for doing that in the book, which is the fastest and cheapest way to pay off debt. 

[00:25:54] Joe: Man, it’s funny. I want to ask you about that, but I have four other questions which are higher priority.

[00:25:59] Joe: Okay. 

[00:26:00] Haley: I love it. 

[00:26:01] Joe: What’s something that people overcomplicate? ’cause as you said earlier, we make this all complicated. You know, we got the whiteboard with 57 things you need to do. What is the main thing you see when you’re meeting with people or you get feedback from your audience that they’re way overthinking?

[00:26:15] Haley: I think one is lack of automation. Like automation is the key to financial success. I would not be a millionaire without automation. There’s no way, because we’re human beings. We’re fallible. Like we wake up every day. We think that we’re gonna go on a 12 mile run, we’re gonna have a green juice. We, you know, are gonna get 12 hours of work done in two minutes, and then by 3:00 PM it’s like, give you the cookie, let’s hit the bong.

[00:26:38] Haley: And like, where’s a beer? You know, like, and 

[00:26:43] Joe: you described our announcer guy Doug Day yesterday, just now. 

[00:26:48] Haley: I love that for him. But so you need to create, use automation so that you don’t have to rely on yourself for that. And then the other thing that I think that people miss is just looking at their fixed expenses.

[00:26:58] Haley: Because a lot of times your life before you even add in, like. Grocery shopping and travel and going out with your friends and all the fun stuff that makes life work with living. Your actual fixed expenses are too high, and that just puts you on this ponic treadmill where every month before you even add anything else in, you’re underwater.

[00:27:20] Haley: And so what’s so bad about cutting back a little? Or you have two choices. You either have to make more money or. Save more money, and with saving money, there’s a floor to how much you can cut. But with making money, there is no ceiling to how much you can make. And so I really come from like an abundant money mindset.

[00:27:41] Haley: I really believe in encouraging people to make more money. I believe there’s so much money out there for all of us, but also that you have to be smart about how you do it, because online everyone’s like get a side hustle, like, oh, just add this in. And it’s like, great. If you’re a nurse who’s already working a hundred hours a week at a hospital, you’re gonna side hustle.

[00:28:02] Haley: Yeah, right? You’re gonna pass out like that. You don’t have the bandwidth for that. You gotta be with your family. You gotta take care of yourself. And so maybe it’s about just finding a better job. Should you work at a private hospital instead of a public hospital? Should you go into private nursing?

[00:28:16] Haley: Finding ways to optimize your skills where you could be paid more. Because when you’re creative, you actually can find roots to make more money, which I know it sounds really easy when I say it like that, and it is difficult, but I do. I think that when you really look critically at what your skillset is, there are opportunities to bring up your income.

[00:28:35] Joe: Yeah. I feel like a lot of money channel fans are people that are born to find ways to cut, and yet you can’t shrink your way to greatness is a phrase I heard a long time ago that I 

love. 

[00:28:46] Haley: I love that phrase. 

[00:28:47] Joe: Yeah. You can only cut so much. It’s like at some point it’s about living. 

[00:28:51] Haley: I also hate cutting, like my money philosophy is like, I’m always trying to find ways to make more money.

[00:28:57] Haley: Versus cutting. I mean, sometimes I do cut, like, don’t get me wrong, and I keep myself on a budget for sure, but I also like, I just try to me it feels so much more like it makes me feel so much more expansive to think about how can I make more versus getting so stressed about what I need to cut back on.

[00:29:16] Joe: It’s funny because now the reason I cut back, and of course I’m in a better place than I was when I was horrible with money in the nineties, but the main reason I cut now is because I think I really don’t value this. Like why am I spending money on this thing that I don’t value in my life? Like it’s just a waste and so there’s no reason to have it.

[00:29:32] Joe: But making more money is always, you know, another trip to Greece or another day in Greece while you’re there. 

[00:29:38] Haley: Well, I didn’t realize that we were both so obsessed with Greece. I am also, I go every summer and I think that it is where that’s great to go to Stretcher dollar too, because people always think about like the big islands that the cruise ships go on.

[00:29:50] Haley: But if you go to the smaller, like last summer I went to. Fag, Andros and CNOs. But it was so, it was affordable and it was just so beautiful and remote. And so I feel really aligned with you. But also I love what you said about cutting things that you don’t value. I feel like we talked about designer goods and like that to me was sort of, I love fashion, so that is definitely something that I spend money on.

[00:30:14] Haley: But in terms of peacocking at all, I don’t do it really anymore. You know? ’cause it doesn’t really add value to my life. I don’t ever order food in like just things that you were like that you sort of do on repeat. I’m like, I’d rather just scramble some eggs. I have been burned by delivery sushi so many times.

[00:30:29] Haley: I think that we can call it. You know, you know

[00:30:36] Joe: I heard a joke one time. Two words that don’t go together are discount and sushi like or gas station sushi. Right? Yep. 

[00:30:46] Haley: I agree. 

[00:30:47] Joe: What’s the first thing a future rich person does this week? 

[00:30:51] Haley: I think the first person that a future rich person does this week is you have a money date, which is something that I do religiously.

[00:30:58] Haley: And by the way, guys, I never wanna do it a lot of times to get where you wanna go in life, it’s like going to the gym. But then once you’re there, you’re totally fine. But it’s like, you know, every time that I’m like, okay, I’ve gotta do my money date this month, I, you know, have to sort of kick myself to get myself to sit down and actually open my bank accounts.

[00:31:15] Haley: But then I feel so much better after. So that’s the other thing is like, I wanna be real about the fact that like, people always say, oh, if you do something for 21 days, it becomes a habit. And then you just like magically become a different version of yourself and it’s like so easy and it’s like, no, sometimes it’s still hard, but it doesn’t matter.

[00:31:33] Haley: You still have to do it. But anyways, a money date is just a set time every month where you sit down with your money because. Joe money is a relationship and if you, you know, were in a relationship and you guys never spend time together, I don’t think that it would be going very well. You need time to review your spending, look at your bank statements.

[00:31:51] Haley: I’m always finding things that I forgot to cancel, subscriptions. Maybe I’m seeing a charge for a package that I forgot to send back, and it’s just a set time to take care of all of those tasks. Yeah, opening your mail, like just that stupid adulting that we all have to do. Financial adulting. It’s so annoying, but we gotta do it.

[00:32:13] Haley: And if you don’t schedule the time to do it, you just won’t do it because it’s not a fun thing that you’re gonna wanna just throw into your day to day. You gotta be like, okay, this is what I’m doing it. And also. You can make it fun. I don’t believe in delivery sushi, but I do believe in cracking open a bottle of wine at home sometimes and looking at my finances, like not something that I would say no to.

[00:32:36] Haley: You know, or a lot of people don’t drink. You could have a mocktail, but whatever your poison is, try to make it as enjoyable as possible. But take that time to have a money date. Just because what you don’t track, you will never grow. So it’s really important to understand where you’re at financially if you wanna make progress.

[00:32:55] Joe: It’s been so fun getting to know you just a little bit. And this interview could be 18 hours long, but we’re gonna let let you go to the next thing. Hailey’s new book is Future Rich Person. If you don’t mind, put it right in front of the camera for our YouTube viewers, ’cause this is awesome. What a cool cover.

[00:33:11] Joe: It is out shortly, just in a couple weeks. What’s the day it comes out, Hailey? 

[00:33:16] Haley: So it comes out May 12th, and you can get it on mrs dow jones.com/book. But because I know that your listeners, they love a good deal. They love good value. I will say it’s worth it to pre-order because I have stacked, I’ve stacked Benjamins, but I’ve also stacked about $700 of bonuses for pre-order customers that you get access to.

[00:33:41] Haley: The moment that you pre-order it. So like you’ll get my money book, which is this like viral money template, that’s like your companion for your money date. You’ll get my credit card guide, you’ll get my debt payoff planner, you’ll get my generational wealth guide, like just basically everything that you need in your toolkit to become a future rich person comes when you pre-order.

[00:34:02] Haley: So it’s definitely worth it, but a lot of those offers are expiring, so we gotta make sure that we move fast. 

[00:34:08] Joe: Gotcha. The guide plus your implementation right there together. We had somebody today with another segment of our show who was like, I really would like infographics around all this stuff. I would like a workbook to be able to go through it.

[00:34:20] Joe: And that’s what you’re giving people? 

[00:34:21] Haley: Yes, exactly. We gotta hook ’em up. I’m like that too. I need that. 

[00:34:25] Joe: So fun getting to know you. We will link to not just the book and Mrs Dow Jones website, but also to your fantastic social channels. ’cause if you’re not following Hailey on social media, you’re missing out.

[00:34:38] Joe: ’cause two things as you saw today. She’s super funny. And also, number two, man, your advice is just so spot on. When you were talking again, I’m gonna go back to the same spot, when you were talking about what to do at the beginning of the Iranian conflict, it was the three things that you need to do. And I, you know what?

[00:34:55] Joe: I’m gonna link specifically to that video so people go watch it. Great seeing you. Thank you so much for visiting Mom’s basement. 

[00:35:02] Haley: Joe, I admire you so much. I really think you are so terrific at what you do. You’re such a pro and I’m a stacker, so it is really exciting to be in the basement. I’ve gotta tell everyone who’s listening, great hospitality, love it here.

[00:35:16] Haley: And I’m hoping to come back because like you said, this conversation could have been way longer and I agree. 

[00:35:23] bumper: This is Aaron from Colorado Springs, and when I’m not teaching three boys how to patch hockey, stick holes and drywall, I’m Stacking Benjamins.

[00:35:36] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor. Duggan. Isn’t Haley Sacks amazing? Mom’s completely charmed upstairs, and I, on the other hand, am not happy because who wants to follow that, but we’ll make the most of it by switching from Mrs. Dow Jones to the Dow Jones, which you may know is an industrial company average hundreds of millions of investors worldwide use to track financial progress in the USA.

[00:36:03] Doug: This index is most often represented by just 30 companies, which brings up this question of the current companies in the Dow, which one has been there the longest? I’ll be back with the name of a company, you know very well. Right after I get Haley’s autograph, I’m sure she’ll also want mine. You know, we’ll just, we’ll swap.

[00:36:34] Doug: Hey, there’s Stackers. I’m Autograph Swapper and Guy who might be putting something up on eBay this afternoon, if you know what I mean. Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. Ah, the Dow Jones created in the 18 hundreds, but still cruising along like a kid on a bike coasting downhill. Sure. Sometimes he’s screaming his head off, but other times he’s basking in the joy of all that momentum.

[00:36:55] Doug: Let’s take a look at today’s question. Of the 30 companies in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which of the current companies has been in it the longest? While a few companies have been in longer, they are no longer in the exchange or had breaks between their long runs. Case in point, if GE were still in the Dow, it’d be the champ because it lasted from the original date of 1896 all the way to 2018 before dropping out of the current companies.

[00:37:23] Doug: Today, it’s Proctor and Gamble that takes the prize having been added on May 26th, 1932. And now back to guys who don’t like to gamble with money, but they’re the proctors of your money exam. Oh, that’s awkward. It’s Joe and og. Put that rubber glove away, Joe. 

[00:37:43] Joe: And you could tell by the part that we deleted that, uh, Doug doesn’t know what proctoring an exam means, 

[00:37:48] Doug: but it’s never good.

[00:37:50] Joe: It doesn’t sound, doesn’t sound great. Hey, uh, let’s go to something that does sound great. A headline. 

[00:37:56] headlines: Hello Darlings. And now it’s time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin’s headlines. Our headline 

[00:38:03] Joe: today comes to us from the Wall Street Journal. This is written by our friend Veronica Dagger and Ben Eisen.

[00:38:10] Joe: Oh, gee, you’ve been monitoring this. There’s been a lot of volatility in fact of Veronica because she is a journalist. Calls it extreme volatility in the mortgage market. See how it’s playing out? Veronica and Ben Wright. Mortgage rates started the year falling by the end of March. They were soaring people taking out 30 year fixed mortgages to buy homes or refinance.

[00:38:34] Joe: Have had to endure, especially high rate volatility as a market responds to twist and turns in public policy. Whipsawing rates, man, she’s got all the words today. Whipsawing rates are now threatening to chill the spring home buying season Perspective. Buyers often decide what they can afford based on mortgage, pre-approvals, but then have to return later to lock in a rate that might have risen.

[00:38:54] Joe: Meanwhile, and this is what I wanna talk about, og. Let’s say that one of our stackers is thinking about this. They’re thinking about moving, they’re thinking about maybe refinancing the house. She’s not wrong. I, I, I love the terminology, right? Uh, soar and plummet and whipsaw and all these things, but let’s be realistic.

[00:39:12] Joe: Rates have been bumpier since January than we’ve seen in quite a long time. If you’re trying to lock down. What you do next, either lock in a low rate or you’re trying to buy a house. How do you frame this with somebody who’s trying to get a little bit of certainty in an uncertain world? 

[00:39:31] OG: While I think that the rates that you pay on your debt is something to factor into your decision making, I’m not entirely sure that you wanna base your entire mortgage strategy or your cash flow plan to like the tippy top.

[00:39:48] OG: What is the exact amount of money that I can borrow to have my lips just barely cresting the surface of the water? Uh, according to the bank, you know, the bank’s job is to optimize for profit for the bank and also. Risk reward, right? And so they’ve largely accepted that if your mortgage payments are less than 36% mortgage, all in taxes, homeowners association insurance plus, plus principled interest is 36%.

[00:40:17] OG: Your total debt payments are 42% of your gross income, then largely assume that your’re gonna be able to make your payments. That’s, that’s kind of the number that they go that will will accept this risk. But if you think about it from like the logical standpoint, if you make a hundred thousand dollars, you know you’re gonna pay some taxes and that sort of stuff off the top 42 grand of that a hundred going to debt is an insane percentage.

[00:40:44] OG: That is crazy talk in terms of trying to figure out like all the other things that have to go on in your life, like food and utilities. And if you’re buying a house for the first time, it’s not something as simple as going, well, my rent’s 2,500, I can go pay 2,500 a mortgage and I’m not, you know, wasting money on rent.

[00:41:02] OG: You have more volume of a house probably to, to heat and cool and clean and ensure and make sure stuff doesn’t break. And when it does break, you have to fix and know there’s 

[00:41:13] Joe: totally costs garbage sometimes that 

[00:41:15] OG: wasn’t, yeah, there, I mean there’s just more stuff to deal with. It’s not a simple transaction of like, I’m spending 2,500 in rent, I can get a $2,500 mortgage and I’m even money.

[00:41:25] OG: I think my advice would be while the rates are important and you know, we can have the debate of like, should you have a 30 year or 15? Or should you, you know, get an adjustable rate? You know, how does that all work out? While we can have that debate, I think at the end of the day, I would keep that number to more like 25% of my gross income, like my house payment, to give yourself some breathing room for those extra things.

[00:41:48] OG: And also, you don’t wanna be so stressed out. Like I, I think everybody compares, I just saw this chart the other day. That was where, I believe it was baby boomers and millennials. I think that was the comparison. Have, did you guys, either of you guys see this? It kind of made the, I’ll find it, we’ll include it in the show notes.

[00:42:07] OG: Or maybe, or maybe not, I’m not sure. Go to the show notes anyway, because you might have a surprise if I can find this thing. But it was a gap between like wealth or net worth or something like that. Adjusted obviously, you know, for inflation, so on and so forth. But millennials are in a better spot. I know that’s gonna like rage baiting a bunch of people and they’ll be like, are you kidding me?

[00:42:26] OG: Like housing prices and grandma, grandpa and all. I get it. Okay. But for some reason it seems to me that people are comparing other people’s, like end to their beginning. And I’ll give you a perfect example of this. It’s just a mentality thing. My son who is 16, almost 17, uh, we were talking about different things, family related and money and you know, we’re kind of an open book and he asked something about the house and how much does it cost and how much is it worth and you know, what’s the payment and all that sort of stuff.

[00:42:54] OG: And we talked about it and he’s like, how in the heck am I ever gonna afford that? Like, that is an insane amount of money to pay on a house or like the, the purchase price, you know? And I was like, dude, I’m almost 50. Like this is my end house, not your beginning house. We see these things and we go like, I want that, but I’m at this stage of my life.

[00:43:17] OG: I don’t understand why we, why we have to compare it that way. We don’t have to always have the top of the line, everything or, you know, live in the absolute best neighborhood or you know, whatever. Like, I get that there’s gonna be pros and cons to that and like school districts and all that sort of stuff.

[00:43:33] OG: But, but it’s okay to have a smaller house first, you know, if that’s what’s in line with your budget and, and you know, wait to catch up. I don’t understand the allure of the stress of what realtors will say. Buy your second house first. You’ve heard that phrase. Maybe you guys have heard that phrase from, from real estate professionals.

[00:43:52] OG: Both of your opinion sounds horrible. It just sounds like something, maybe this just what they told me, it sounds 

[00:43:56] opener: so horrible. 

[00:43:57] OG: Maybe this is, they’re like, you gotta look about you, uh, uh, you should buy your second house for a, I can already tell that you’ll do it. Um, I mean, you should do it. It’s better for your family.

[00:44:05] OG: But why be stressed out about this stuff? What’s the value of. The anxiety versus, well, no, you don’t understand. Like, this is where I have to be ’cause this is the, you know, whatever. Just 

[00:44:19] Joe: I feel the same way about this as I do about safe withdrawal rates. Why would I be on the bleeding edge of the, this is all the money I can spend.

[00:44:26] Joe: ’cause you’re gonna og, you’re gonna worry about everything. Every time there’s any fluctuation at all. You’re gonna worry about, is my safe withdrawal rate still safe? We’re not gonna know until you’re dead. We’re not gonna have any idea. Yeah. Until it’s over. If 

[00:44:37] OG: you died 78, your safe withdrawal rate could have been 22%.

[00:44:40] Joe: We have no idea. So why you’re, 

[00:44:42] OG: it could be 105, it probably should be three. 

[00:44:44] Joe: So why you’re gonna begin your plan there. And I, and, and I’m glad you brought this up about this, this topic, because you know, my initial thought is you need to give yourself a range. Number one, give yourself a range. And number two is we’re always trying to call the top or bottom of everything.

[00:45:00] Joe: And you gotta give that away. You’re never gonna do it. You’re never gonna call the top or bottom. 

[00:45:04] OG: Well again, the comparison game is what? What’s the phrase there? Comparison is the thief. This thief of joy, 

[00:45:10] Joe: joy. Mom says that all the time. 

[00:45:12] OG: I think like Emerson said it all the time actually. Well 

[00:45:14] Joe: I don’t know, but Emerson got it from mom.

[00:45:16] Joe: I’ll bet. 

[00:45:17] OG: Probably. But we have these things, especially, you know, new home buyers, you know, they hear these stories of like, I got my mortgage at two and a half, like once in 10 generations, right? Of like chaos that, that had that happen. When we bought our house in 2015, our mortgage rate was four. And I remember thinking like that was such an insane number.

[00:45:39] OG: I would never pay that off early. And I would try to cajole the bank into letting me borrow more money repeatedly at 4%. You know, like how long can I run the charade? But when I started planning in the late nineties, I remember refinancing houses from eight and a half down to six and a half, and that was like a huge savings.

[00:45:57] OG: Huge. Generationally. If you look at the historical rates, they’ve been falling for 40 years. Since the 1980s, rates have like just kind of trended all the way down to where they are now. And I know it feels like they’re high, but this is kind of a normal number. And so you might be able to arbitrage, or you might be able to get lucky and be like, oh, I got mine at five and seven eights.

[00:46:20] OG: Like, wow, what a great rate. Or, I got screwed and I got mine at six and a quarter. But this is kind of where it’s supposed to be in terms of the numbers. There might be some craziness that happens, and in case you forgot, the reason that you got two point a half percent on your mortgage refinance in 2020 was because the world was ending.

[00:46:37] OG: Like every single solitary thing in the entire universe shut down all at the same time, and no one was allowed to do anything ever. So all business, every single solitary mode of economic growth was shut down and it caused the entire economy to collapse in 17 days and only because of the intervention of the federal government.

[00:47:01] OG: Did it not turn into a giant depression? And part of that was massively lowering rates. So if you want all that to happen again, let’s get after it. You know, let’s, the, the two and a half percent thing was kind of fun. The reason we got two point a half percent was pretty much the worst thing imaginable.

[00:47:17] OG: So let’s not say that that’s a good idea. I think you have to give yourself a lot of margin when you’re borrowing money and recognize it’s not a life sentence. You know, you can refinance, you can borrow at a cheaper rate. There’s so much creative financing out there. Now, if you’ve got brokerage account money in your borrowing money, you might consider using your brokerage account instead of a traditional loan.

[00:47:40] OG: There’s lots of opportunities there. There’s just a lot of ways to borrow money. I wouldn’t do it right up to the edge, you know? ’cause that’s stressful and stress sucks. 

[00:47:50] Joe: Yeah. I think that giving yourself then that range, if it’s between here and here, then I’m gonna go forward. And also remember, if you’re moving, if you’re moving OG and you’re changing.

[00:48:01] Joe: Regions of the country, or you really want the new house if it’s in the middle of your range, even though it’s not as low as it was, remember that that rate, to your point, when you refinance, you can refinance again if it goes lower. So I don’t like dealing with man rates. Were at 3% and now they’re way above that.

[00:48:20] Joe: So I can’t move. Looks like I can’t move until it gets jacked up. Well, you’re never moving. If you’re thinking about going to three, there’s a distinct possibility that will never happen again. But if you look at where it is now and you really wanna move, it’s your thing that you want to do well then what’s that phrase that people in real estate use?

[00:48:37] Joe: Date? The rate. Date. The rate. You don’t have to stay married to it forever. You can bring it down later, but make sure that it is inside of the parameters. 

[00:48:45] OG: Yeah. Gotta work in the budget. 

[00:48:46] Joe: Yeah. Of the entire budget first. I think what this year also proves is trying to prognosticate where rake are going because everybody thought, man, we’re going even lower.

[00:48:56] Joe: We’re going even lower. We’re going even lower until we weren’t. I think playing that game is a dangerous activity, too. Guessing what’s gonna happen next. 

[00:49:05] OG: I mean, when should you invest money? When you have money to invest, when should you borrow money? When you need to borrow money. 

[00:49:15] Doug: Wow. 

[00:49:15] OG: It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.

[00:49:17] Joe: I know 

[00:49:18] Doug: he’s like a philosopher king. 

[00:49:19] Joe: That’s the hot take. Doug 

[00:49:20] OG: should engrave that stuff in like a cave somewhere and in 50 years they’ll be like, wow, they wrote this in like, we’ll just translate it to like Latin and like carve it in some cave.

[00:49:34] OG: They’ll be like, I don’t know who this OG guy is, but damn. Was he smart? 

[00:49:37] Joe: We gotta make a graphic and put that on the internet. Found in OGs, man cave. We’ll call it from the, from the man cave. Yeah. Great work is always by Veronica and Ben. Yeah. We will link to it on our show notes page at Stacking Benjamins dot com.

[00:49:52] Joe: We, Doug, have this great segment we call the back porch and I think we need to briefly go out on the back porch and see what’s going out in our wonderful Stacking Benjamins community. 

[00:50:03] Doug: You know, Joe. Lately out in the basement, Gertrude’s asked a few times, uh, for people to brag about what they’re doing, and two, caught my eye.

[00:50:13] Doug: By the way, we don’t get enough. Gertrude doesn’t get enough responses to these ’cause we know that all you guys are doing some pretty cool stuff out there. Whether it’s directly related to sort of financial independence or not, we just wanna know what you’re doing and, and, and what Cool. ’cause you could inspire somebody like Rob inspired me.

[00:50:32] Doug: He apparently under the auspices, under this sham veil of financial Independence, took a trip through the Netherlands and Belgium with 37 of his closest friends. But I was saving money. I’m sure we got group discount rates or something, but Sounds very, very cool. Rob. That sounded like a great trip. And then, um, stacker Nikki took a class to learn how to, and I don’t, I don’t know any of the words in the sentence after this.

[00:50:58] Doug: This is, maybe somebody out there can help me. She took a class to learn how to inoculate logs to grow. Shit aches. 

[00:51:06] Joe: What 

[00:51:06] Doug: came shiitakes. Okay. I don’t know what that word is, either. Came home and got five logs from a recently down tree. And work some magic. She’ll be Stacking shit aches in about eight months, shiitake months, shiitakes, okay, whatever those are.

[00:51:22] Doug: She’s Stacking ’em 

[00:51:22] Joe: fantastic 

[00:51:23] Doug: mushrooms, and she’s waiting great mushrooms. 18 months. Oh, that’s why I don’t know what they are. They’re shrooms. 

[00:51:28] Joe: Yes, 

[00:51:29] Doug: but I mean, that’s, I mean, that’s something to brag about. She’s sort of long-term investing in logs. Maybe that’s a euphemism for something. I don’t, she can’t be talking about real logs.

[00:51:37] Doug: Right. 

[00:51:38] Joe: Talking about growing shrooms and grow into Amsterdam, that tells you all you need to know. Stacking Benjamins right there. That’s our community. Yeah. Let us know what you’re doing. Uh, tell us what’s going on. If you’re a creator, go in there and, uh, tell us what your latest thing is. We might even base our Friday round table on it.

[00:51:59] Joe: We’ve been known to do that before. So, uh, jump on it. Stacky Benjamins dot com slash basement gets you there. Of course, we have our bad groups, our Benjamins after dark groups around the country. Stacking Benjamins com slash Bad bad. Links for all these in our show notes page. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us.

[00:52:15] Joe: Thank you to Mrs. Dow Jones, Haley Sachs for joining us today. Fantastic fun. We’ll see everybody on Friday where comedian Roseanne Dunkel is going to join us. And, uh, our round table festivities. We’re talking about why you might not want to invest like the 1%. We hear that advertisement all the time.

[00:52:34] Joe: Invest like the 1%. Talk about why you might not wanna do that coming up on Friday. Doug, what should be on our takeaway list? 

[00:52:41] Doug: Well, Joe first take some advice from Mrs. Dow Jones. Haley Sachs wanna be a future millionaire? Stop trying to get rich quick and master the basics. It’s not that hard, and the odds are incredibly low that you’ll mess things up so much you go backwards.

[00:52:56] Doug: Second mortgages, remember, marry the property, but date the rate 

[00:53:01] OG: sounds kind of salty, huh? 

[00:53:03] Doug: If rates lower in the future, you can have a little side piece anyway. If, if rates lower in the future, you can refinance and lower your debt obligation. That said, don’t be so excited to marry the rate that you have to divorce the property later.

[00:53:18] Doug: You won’t be allowed to visit every other weekend. Nobody wants that painful separation. But the big lesson, speaking of what nobody wants, somebody needs to share with Joe’s mom that nobody wants Lima beans. Nobody, ma. If they’re gross, they’re overrated and only minimally nutritious. Fight me on this. If you like Lima beans, I’m fairly sure you hate life.

[00:53:43] Doug: Thanks to Haley Sacks, AKA Mrs. Dow Jones for joining us today. If you know you’re gonna buy it, grab your highlighter and head to mrs dow jones.com where Haley has a bunch of tools to help you dig in easier. We’ll also include links in our show notes at Stacking Benjamins dot com. This show is the Property of SP podcast, LLC, copyright 2026, and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy.

[00:54:08] Doug: You’ll find out about our awesome team at Stacking Benjamins dot com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello and oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know.

[00:54:27] Doug: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug, and we’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[00:55:36] Joe: I was chatting with my cousin who lives in Indianapolis, and you know, a couple weeks ago they had a cold snap, like, uh, Doug in northern Michigan. You guys got like another burst of winter. 

[00:55:47] Doug: We did 

[00:55:48] Joe: winter in April. 

[00:55:49] Doug: We did. Always happens. 

[00:55:51] Joe: Also, Jesse Kramer sent us. A photo of life in Rochester. He is like, it was 80 and now it, it’s back.

[00:55:58] Joe: But they had just thrown away an old suitcase. He and his lovely spouse and as they were doing some attic cleaning and he said he went out there with a garbage the next day. And there in the suitcase three baby foxes. 

[00:56:16] Doug: Whoa. 

[00:56:17] Joe: Yeah. 

[00:56:18] Doug: That’s wild. 

[00:56:19] Joe: So he calls animal control ’cause they live, they live in a really small town, so it’s not inconceivable that there would be a fox there, but not usually where you’d find a fox.

[00:56:28] Joe: So he calls animal control and animal control asked him, said, are the foxes moving? You know, ’cause it’s so cold. And he said, uh, well I don’t know if they’re moving, but that would explain the suitcase. 

[00:56:43] Doug: Dammit, Joe, I’m just getting ready to go into all I know about foxes and they’re kits, by the way, they’re not baby foxes, they’re kits, and it’s really unusual that the Mama Fox would’ve done that because she would’ve set up her den a long time ago.

[00:56:58] Doug: And why I didn’t see that coming is infuriating. 

[00:57:02] Joe: I thought I set that up pretty well. 

[00:57:04] Doug: You did. You got me. Doug, 

[00:57:05] Joe: what movies have you seen? What movies have you seen? 

[00:57:08] Doug: Well, I’ve been watching a lot of shows lately. Not as many movies, obviously, like the rest of the world. Finished The Pit recently, man, is that a good show?

[00:57:18] Doug: It’s just so well put together. 

[00:57:21] Joe: I, I love, as you guys know, I have a lot of friends who work in healthcare and they’re always like, that would be the longest shift ever. It’s 

[00:57:27] OG: like, ER 2.0 pass. 

[00:57:29] Doug: It’s exactly that, but it’s still really well done. The writing is great, it engages you, but isn’t 

[00:57:34] Joe: it like one day, 1 24 hour period?

[00:57:37] Doug: It’s one 15 hour shift. Yeah, it’s sort of a real time. 

[00:57:42] OG: Does it have the, like the sex and drama like Grey’s Anatomy? ’cause then I might be interested. Well, 

[00:57:48] Doug: there’s, there’s, there is some nudity. 

[00:57:50] OG: Okay. 

[00:57:51] Doug: Alright. Not in the way you’re hoping for, but there definitely is nudity. Boy, 

[00:57:54] OG: I don’t watch Grey’s Anatomy for the Sex.

[00:57:56] OG: I watch it for the articles.

[00:58:02] OG: You don’t even know what to do with that, do you, Doug? You’re like, that is, that was, that was almost as well done as the Fox joke. 

[00:58:10] Doug: Watch it for the articles. 

[00:58:12] Joe: Are, are, are you really watching Love on the Spectrum? 

[00:58:15] Doug: Yeah. You got a problem with that? 

[00:58:17] OG: Doug watches all sort of white trash tv. 

[00:58:21] Doug: Dude, I cover the, I cover the spectrum.

[00:58:23] Doug: You 

[00:58:24] OG: did. He knows everything about any bachelor or bachelorette season. 

[00:58:27] Doug: No, we stopped that. ’cause that’s ridiculous. Now we stopped that. 

[00:58:31] OG: Okay, now it’s ridiculous. By the way, Joe, it finally just got ridiculous. 

[00:58:35] Doug: They jumped the shark. 

[00:58:37] OG: Yes. 

[00:58:37] Joe: I never thought that show was ridiculous until Doug just figured it 

[00:58:41] Doug: out 

[00:58:41] OG: recently.

[00:58:42] Doug: Until they cast the woman from, uh, real Housewives of Salt or Mormon Housewives or whatever it was. 

[00:58:48] OG: So literally the last season. So Doug has watched every season up until the most recent one. Now it’s gone too far. 

[00:58:55] Doug: No many seasons. We actually, we actually peeled off from that a couple years ago. I think we finally, finally aged out of it.

[00:59:02] Doug: But we do watch a lot of varied stuff and I’m proud of that. I gotta tell you, love on the spectrum is some of the sweetest, nicest, feel good television you’re gonna watch. It is so nice. See, I dunno anything 

[00:59:14] OG: about it. I said it’s white trash, but I don’t really know. 

[00:59:16] Doug: It’s not at all. No, these are, okay.

[00:59:17] Doug: These are, I’ll say young adults, early twenties, generally, sometimes a little older who are pretty solidly on the spectrum and they’re. Opportunities for finding romantic partners are very different than the rest of the world. And, and watching them find love is, and, and how they interact with each other and just how pure they are is really heartwarming and I would recommend it.

[00:59:41] Doug: It is, it is just a nice, nice thing to watch. And each season they’ll have, I think there’s been three seasons, uh, and they’ll have maybe five or six different people and it’s just great. 

[00:59:53] OG: How does this rank in the continuum of, so what is this name, what is this show called? 

[00:59:58] Doug: Love. Love on Spectrum. 

[00:59:59] OG: Love on Spectrum.

[00:59:59] OG: Love on the spectrum versus love island. Which one, 

[01:00:05] Doug: which one is more feel good? Like where? Well, it depends on long-term feel good or short-term feel good. Short term, feel good. 

[01:00:13] OG: Where is it on that, on that spectrum? 

[01:00:16] Joe: What is more short-term? Feel good? What is more long-term? 

[01:00:19] Doug: Feel good? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, one, you feel good about watching and the other you don’t, 

[01:00:25] Joe: you feel a little dirty, a little dirty.

[01:00:27] Joe: You 

[01:00:27] Doug: feel a lot dirty. Watching Love island. 

[01:00:29] OG: I need to be in your world that has time to watch, like network. 

[01:00:33] Doug: Just stay up later 

[01:00:33] OG: tv. 

[01:00:35] Doug: Just stay up later. Grandpa, I’ve, I’ve got a good list here. Here’s another thing that’s definitely on the, on the other side of wholesomeness, which is DTF St. Louis. What does DTF stand for?

[01:00:47] Doug: I’m not, can I say it? 

[01:00:49] OG: Let’s not tell him. Doug, let’s, let’s just, let’s think of something down to the 

[01:00:58] Doug: fairway. 

[01:00:59] Joe: Oh, it’s 

[01:00:59] OG: about golf. French fries. 

[01:01:00] Joe: Oh yeah. 

[01:01:02] OG: He’s gonna like, ask the McDonald’s person if they’re DTF. I’m gonna have a Big Mac and, uh, are you, are you DTF down to eat french fries? 

[01:01:13] Joe: Nope. I get it now.

[01:01:15] Joe: I get it. Thank you. Thank you. 

[01:01:16] Doug: But that show, which is Jason Bateman, and we’ve talked about this recently on the show, but I, we finished it and, um, you gotta have an open mind. You definitely do. But it’s very well done. You gotta have an open mind. You definitely do. It’s, you know, it’s not for everybody.

[01:01:33] Joe: Speaking of not for everybody. Cheryl picked a film and we lost my dad about a year and a half ago, uh, almost two years ago now. My dad was known as Manly Man, except he loved watching Hallmark movies. Like my dad would sit and watch that same formula over and over and over, and I swear to God I’m his kid because Cheryl’s like, we’re gonna go see you, me in Tuscany, and you, me in Tuscany.

[01:01:59] Joe: Is, uh, it is travel porn. So if you think that the Tuscan countryside is beautiful, like I do, every time the, the theater was empty except Cheryl and I and two other people, and every time it would give you that sweeping shot of the countryside, I would just yell, shut up. Just, just shut up. Because it was, why would you do that?

[01:02:19] Joe: So beautiful. Just take my wallet. Now, isn’t 

[01:02:22] Doug: it illegal to yell things out in a empty movie theater? 

[01:02:25] Joe: Yeah, maybe. I don’t know. But it was the solid six and a half that you’re looking for from a romantic comedy. And then, uh, last weekend we went to the Indie theater and we watch this cool movie called Mile End Kicks, which is about a woman who’s a young film critic.

[01:02:44] Joe: What’s what, what’s the famous movie about the, the guy that goes a Cameron Crow movie where the guy goes and he’s the, the young film critic following the, following the band. 

[01:02:56] Doug: Well, he is the Rolling Stone writer. That’s, uh, 

[01:02:58] Joe: yes. I 

[01:02:58] Doug: don’t know that he’s a film critic. Um, 

[01:03:00] Joe: yes, the Rolling Stone. Well, same thing, 

[01:03:03] Doug: I think you’re talking about almost famous.

[01:03:05] Joe: I am. So if you like the movie Almost famous, you, you take this, uh, young woman who lives in Toronto. It’s a Canadian movie, and she, around 2011, when bands like Arcade Fire, uh, really lighten up the Canadian music scene in Montreal. Lots of bands like it was the place to move if you are looking for the Canadian music scene.

[01:03:26] Joe: So she had written some for Spin she’d, written for a few other music magazines, music online sites. She goes to Montreal and she just makes a series of bad decisions, uh, falls in love with band members from some of these bands. Uh, learns a lot of lessons. But if you think about the unevenness of an indie film.

[01:03:48] Joe: I think you go in with the right expectation. Incredibly uneven movie, but uh, but man, the payoff’s worth it. 

[01:03:53] Doug: Yeah. 

[01:03:54] Joe: Mile end kicks, uh, if you like, almost famous, I think is a good modern day. I don’t wanna say redo ’cause it’s a different film, but same vibe. 

[01:04:04] Doug: Okay.