How to Actually Enjoy Holiday Small Talk (And Give Better Gifts for Less) SB1771

Holiday parties make you want to hide behind the cheese tray. Gift-giving season makes your budget cry. This episode is your survival guide for both.

Joe Saul-Sehy, OG, and Neighbor Doug welcome Pulitzer Prize-winning author Charles Duhigg to turn holiday small talk from awkward endurance test into something you might actually enjoy. Whether you’re facing the office party, a family gathering with that cousin who won’t shut up about crypto, or the neighborhood potluck where you know exactly three people, Charles reveals how to walk into any room with confidence, even if you’re an introvert who’d rather be home watching movies.

The secret? Super communicators aren’t the loudest people in the room. They’re the ones asking better questions, reading the conversation correctly, and making others feel heard. Charles breaks down the skills that turn painful small talk into genuine connection, and why introverts actually have hidden advantages at holiday gatherings (yes, really).

Then the crew tackles the other holiday stressor of gift-giving that doesn’t demolish your December budget. Joe, OG, and Doug explore the rising trend of secondhand gifting. It’s not just about saving money (though your wallet will thank you). It can be more meaningful, more creative, and kinder to both your finances and the planet. From thrifted treasures to thoughtful “found” gems, they share how to give smarter instead of just spending more.

Plus, Doug’s toilet paper trivia arrives right on schedule (because what’s a holiday episode without something unexpected?), along with stories about neighbors behaving badly and a brief tour through apps you forgot you’re still paying for.

What You’ll Walk Away With:

• Charles Duhigg’s framework for turning small talk into actual connection without feeling fake
• Why introverts have secret advantages at holiday parties and how to use them
• Smart, budget-friendly gifting strategies that feel thoughtful rather than last-minute or cheap
• The case for secondhand gifts and how to do it in a way that feels special
• How to avoid blowing your holiday budget without looking (or feeling) stingy
• Creative ways to personalize gifts without overspending or resorting to gift cards
• Why communication skills affect both your happiness and your financial decisions

This Episode Is For You If:

• Holiday small talk feels like torture and you’d rather shovel snow
• You want to give meaningful gifts but refuse to wreck your January budget doing it
• You’re an introvert dreading the season of forced social interaction
• You’re tired of generic gift guides telling you to “just spend less” without actual ideas
• You believe better conversations and smarter spending are both learnable skills

Before You Hit Play, Ask Yourself:

What’s the most meaningful non-new gift you’ve ever given or received? Think about why it mattered. That’s the kind of gifting Charles and the crew are talking about. Drop your story in the comments because we’re building the anti-Amazon holiday gift playbook together.

Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201

Enjoy!

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Our Headline

• With Rising Costs Top of Mind, 81% of Americans Plan to Shop Secondhand for Holiday Gifts, OfferUp Reports (Morningstar)

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Doug’s Trivia

• When it comes to Amazon sales, what toilet paper brand wipes the others’ asses?

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Want more than just the show notes? How about our newsletter with STACKS of related, deeper links?

• Check out The 201, our email that comes with every Monday and Wednesday episode, PLUS a list of more than 19 of the top money lessons Joe’s learned over his own life about money. From credit to cash reserves, and insurance to investing, we’ll tackle all of these. Head to StackingBenjamins.com/the201 to sign up (it’s free and we will never give away your email to others).

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Other Mentions

• The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business

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Join Us Wednesday

Tune in on Wednesday when we talk about changing course over your career, betting on yourself, and when to think about happiness over money…with Lew Frankfort.

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Written by: Kevin Bailey

Miss our last show? Listen here: How to Save Money Without Making Your Life Miserable (SB1770) » The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] Joe: Finally getting cold here in Northeast Texas and that means my hands furry and for 

[00:00:05] OG: everybody north of the Mason Dixon line cold. We mean sixties. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Morning lows in the mid forties 

[00:00:13] Doug: means I have to put on socks. Cold like that. Cold pants. Yes. We’ve been shoveling for three or four weeks and you’re now just maybe seeing a little dew on the ground 

[00:00:23] OG: to get my pants up.

[00:00:24] OG: Wear my sweatpants. Yeah, I did put on a sweatshirt today ’cause I was like, 

[00:00:28] Joe: yeah, we’re talking real cold. Put on a sweatshirt. Kind of cold. Like real cold at the beginning of our Monday shows. If you’re new here, welcome first of all. Second, grab the mug and lift it in the air. ’cause we begin every week by saluting those people that protected us all weekend so that we could party like it’s 2025 this last month of the year.

[00:00:49] Joe: So on behalf of the men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union, who serve our active duty troops and our veterans, and the people who make podcasts to mom’s basement. Here’s to you. Thank you so much. Rah. Let’s all go stack Benjamins together now. 

[00:01:03] Doug: Wow, that is mighty brave of you to be waving around a Michigan State Spartans mug this time of year, when by the time it’s basketball season, Doug, it’s basketball season.

[00:01:11] Doug: By the time this airs, I’m pretty sure your football coach is looking for a new job. It’s 

[00:01:15] OG: basketball season. No, didn’t you hear Doug? They just have eliminated football. 

[00:01:21] Doug: Oh, state. Just got rid of it. 

[00:01:22] OG: They’re just like, we’re good 

[00:01:24] Doug: after this year. I think that’s okay. I, I went to a basketball school too, but we never had any pretenses.

[00:01:30] Doug: We never acted like we were once a football school. We’re just, we make quarterbacks and we have great basketball teams. Ours goes off and on. We’re like, yes, we’re no. Yeah, no. Yeah, no. How about we get the show started? 

[00:01:44] bit: That was a little boy. I thought the greatest thing in the world would be to be able to make records.

[00:01:49] bit: Okay, now let’s just play this and you’ll see what it sounds like.

[00:01:59] Doug: Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[00:02:13] Doug: I am Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. It’s that time of year again. Mom starts inviting all the neighbors over. Joe and OG host the uh, SB holiday party and I gotta go find some pants. Even worse, how do you navigate the chattiest month of the year here to help you either become the hit of the event or just survive it?

[00:02:34] Doug: We welcome Mr. Super communicator himself. Bestselling author Charles Duhig in our headline segment. Remember that horrible time when your sister-in-law gifted you that that thing that somebody else had already used? Turns out, that’s a thing. We’ll explain why you might be in the cross airs to receive a hand-me-down this holiday season and now two guys who didn’t invent the world of personal finance, but they’re great at redefining it.

[00:03:01] Doug: It’s Joe, oh and oh.

[00:03:11] Joe: And a happy Monday to you stackers. Welcome back to another episode of the Stacky Benjamin Show. I’m Joe Saul Sea. Hi. And across the cart table from me is the one and only og. How are you brother? 

[00:03:22] OG: It’s my princess wave. 

[00:03:24] Joe: He’s, he’s good. I, I think it’s full on queen material, don’t you, Doug? Like that’s, that’s not princess.

[00:03:30] Joe: I think he’s kind of princessy. Very much so. Depends on the. But we need him in full on queen mode today because he’s gotta be the one who just navigates the ship because man, we got a great show today. We’ve got the bestselling author, Charles Duhig, who is back. You know, oh gee, this is hell for some of our stackers this time of year.

[00:03:50] Joe: This is the chattiest month. We go to holiday parties at the, for the neighborhood we might go to for our kids’ school. We maybe go to the holiday party for work. We are going to so many, so many things. And if you’re an introvert, how do you navigate that? But this can be the time where you build those relationships that help you stack Benjamins the rest of the year.

[00:04:15] Joe: It’s all about who you know and if you do a good job. So Charles Duhig is gonna help us with that today. Sweet. Should be a lot of fun. I know that, uh, you’re looking forward to the Stacking Benjamins holiday party, Doug. Accept the part where I have to put on pants. That’s the annoying part for you, but the good part for all of us.

[00:04:32] Joe: Thank goodness mom has a dress code og. If she didn’t have a dress code, this, this would be absolutely horrible. 

[00:04:39] OG: I just like the bathtub full of eggnog. That’s my favorite 

[00:04:41] Joe: part. Mom insists on that and I just think that is, that makes it 

[00:04:45] Doug: well, yeah, you guys don’t care. You don’t have to clean the drain out after the party.

[00:04:49] Doug: I’m the one who’s gotta unclog. You know what eggnog does to a plumbing system? 

[00:04:55] OG: Is that euphemism? 

[00:04:57] Doug: That’s what I was gonna ask. I’m not sure what plumbing system you’re talking about. I gotta clean it all. 

[00:05:05] Joe: Oh, not only are we getting to talk to Mr. Duhigg, we are going to also talk about, uh, a trend with the kids these days.

[00:05:13] Joe: What are the kids these days doing for all you who aren’t kids that you wanna know? Or maybe you are a kid and you wanna know what the hot trend is. We’ve got you covered. So sit back, relax. You found the show. Hold on. Spend the next, hold on. 

[00:05:25] Doug: Did you just say maybe you’re a kid and you wanna know what the hot trends are?

[00:05:29] Doug: Like they’re coming to us for the hot. You totally come to us 

[00:05:33] OG: and never know. 

[00:05:34] Joe: Doug could be a first. It could happen, Doug. It could happen. Next thing you know, he is gonna say that the holidays just aren’t real. Like none of this is real. Charles Duhig is a bestselling author. I first heard about him with his, uh, amazing book, the Power of Habit.

[00:05:51] Joe: Of course. He was on just over a year ago talking about his incredible follow-up book. Super Communicators about the ways that people who are phenomenal at communication, how they do it. So when I was having a chat with Charles last month, I said, Hey, you know what? We have our annual episode. Vanessa Van Edwards has been on, Suzanne, Rowan has been on.

[00:06:11] Joe: We try to do this every year to help you. It’s so big. And being able to stack more Benjamins that we love talking about navigating the holiday party. And I asked Charles if he would come and do that. He’s like, oh, that’d be a lot of fun. So he’s upstairs talking to mom. We’re going to hear from him in just a moment.

[00:06:28] Joe: But before we get to Charles, we got a couple sponsors to make sure that we can keep on keeping on. You’re not gonna pay anything and you’re gonna be able to. Negotiate not just the holiday party, but also forge some of those lifelong relationships, hopefully this month. So we’re gonna hear from them, and then the Charles Duhig joins us in the basement.

[00:06:57] Joe: And I am super happy he’s back for his third trip down to mom’s basement. Charles Deic joins us again. How are you man? We need a frequent flyer pass for you. Well, thanks for having me on again. I really appreciate it. Well, this is a big time of year when I think we need to be super connector because for those of us, Charles, who are introverts, who pretend that we’re extroverts, it’s difficult.

[00:07:16] Joe: It’s also just a difficult time in general. We’re in far more holiday parties. We’re talking to the boss that, or the boss’s boss that we never get to talk to, and how many times have you and I heard stories about people and their heart’s beating outta their chest and they step in it. Their one opportunity to talk to maybe that big client or the boss’s boss.

[00:07:35] Joe: This is our one time when we need to put on our superconductor pants and get good at this. 

[00:07:40] Charles: And that’s one of the reasons I wrote super communicators is because I talked to a lot of people who said, look, I don’t know how to make small talk. Right? I go to these parties and I sort of stand in the corner and I feel awkward, like, what should I do?

[00:07:50] Charles: And one of the things that we know is that super communicators are really, really good at inviting other people to have conversations. And so for the upcoming months when you’re going to a holiday party or when the family’s around the dinner table for Thanksgiving or when you know you’re going to your neighbors and you don’t really know your neighbors that well, there’s a couple things you can do to make that those interactions easier and better.

[00:08:13] Charles: The first is have a couple of questions ready to ask. There was this really interesting study that was done at Harvard where they brought a bunch of business school students into a room and they said, okay, look, in about five minutes you are gonna have a conversation with a stranger, which is one of the most anxiety producing things you can ask people to do.

[00:08:29] Charles: And so they said, but before you have this conversation, we’re gonna give you an index card. Write down three things you might wanna talk about, right? Like maybe a question you want to ask or something that’s happened to you. Just take 30 seconds and literally write these down. And people would say like, you know, did you see the game last night?

[00:08:43] Charles: And are you going to that movie? Gonna go see that movie this weekend and let me tell you about this like, cool party I went to. Then they tell everyone, okay, go ahead and put your, your cards in your pocket. Then they assign them, their partners and they go and they have the conversation, and afterwards they ask them, how did that go?

[00:08:58] Charles: And the people said, you know, it went so much better than I thought it was gonna go. And then they said, well, did you ever ask those questions that you wrote down? And they said, no, no, you know, actually we had so much else to talk about. But I felt so confident because I knew that if there was like a weird silence or something like that, I had these questions or these topics in my back pocket that I could pull out.

[00:09:18] Charles: Oftentimes when we have trouble making conversation at parties, it’s because we have trouble knowing how to start. And we tend to imagine, anticipate that it’s gonna be more awkward than it actually is. But there’s a solution to that, which is ask a question. Everyone loves being asked questions. And if you have some questions in your back pocket, every conversation’s gonna go better.

[00:09:40] Joe: Is that it for us? It’s not about trying to force myself Charles to be a natural networker. It’s just this mindset shift in preparation. Absolutely. 

[00:09:48] Charles: Absolutely. And, and I mean, there’s other aspects to it too, right? Like what kind of question you ask matters. Because most of the questions we ask are questions about facts or what are known as surface questions.

[00:09:58] Charles: Oh, where do you live? Oh, where do you work? And the problem is those aren’t really invitations to have a deeper conversation. Those are usually just kind of things that lead to one word or three word answers. But then there’s another kind of question that’s known as a deep question. And a deep question is something that asks us about our values or beliefs or our experiences.

[00:10:17] Charles: And that can sound a little bit intimidating, but it’s as simple as if you meet someone who’s a doctor, instead of asking them, oh, where did you go to medical school? Asking them, oh, why’d you decide to go to medical school? What was it that made you wanna be a doctor? That small shift in a question invites the other person to tell you about something real, to describe something about their experiences or their values.

[00:10:38] Charles: That’s the beginning of a real conversation. And the nice thing about a deep question is that when you ask a deep question and the other person responds, it’s natural for us to answer our own question. Oh, you went to medical school ’cause you saw your dad get sick. That’s really interesting. I, I decided to become a lawyer because I saw my uncle get arrested when I was a kid.

[00:10:55] Charles: So that’s the second thing. The first thing is to ask more questions and to have those questions in your back pocket. Just spend 30 seconds thinking about it before you go to the party. 

[00:11:02] Joe: Can I ask a follow up? Because I did wanna talk about this, about the three things super connectors do better because I think this is so they’re super communicators.

[00:11:09] Joe: Well, and this is funny, this isn’t aside because I know I’ve called it super connectors three times, but I do think super communicators are super connectors and I think that absolutely this brain, you know, fuzz that I have calling it quote the wrong thing is truly because when you are communicating better, I think it’s not about saying more Charles, I think it’s about connecting better.

[00:11:33] Charles: Absolutely. That’s why the subtitle of the book is How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection is ’cause You’re exactly right. The goal of communication is for us to connect with each other. 

[00:11:42] Joe: I swear to God, every time I tell my friends about your book, which I’ve read, I think 500 million times, I think I always call it Super Connectors.

[00:11:50] Joe: I think that’s right. That’s right. I think I love it. They find you anyway, Charles, they Oh good, good. They find a way, but there are three things they do differently. And the first one was to ask better questions. Now I’m thinking about the setting here though, right? I’m at a holiday party, I got a drink in my hand and I’ve got the boss for just a second.

[00:12:09] Joe: I can ask him, you know, where did you go to law school versus why did, but I also think this is a person, she is super busy. She wants to talk to 50 million different people. I’m asking her this question that’s inviting something she may not want at the holiday party. 

[00:12:27] Charles: Right? And that’s the second thing that you have to keep in mind is.

[00:12:30] Charles: How do I prove to this person that I’m actually listening to what they’re saying and that I’m responding to what they need? Because the truth of the matter is, every time we open our mouth, there is something motivating that, right? Like, I want you to think that I’m funny, so I tell you a joke, I want to get to know you better.

[00:12:46] Charles: So I ask you a question. And so the, my question for that person is, when you’re at that party and you see your boss and you’ve got 30 seconds with them, question might not be the right thing to do. What is it that you need out of that, number one? And number two, what do you think your boss needs out of that?

[00:13:01] Charles: Why is she having this conversation with you? So let me ask you like, what do you think, like when you’re in a setting like that and, and you’re talking to someone who has some, some clout over your life and you don’t have that much time, 

[00:13:13] Joe: why are you talking to them? I think my mission, if I’m thinking about this party, it might be just to get on their radar so that I can have a better conversation with them later on when I invite them to lunch later on where we can maybe dig in, I feel like there’s some sort of connection so that I can then invite a deeper conversation.

[00:13:33] Charles: And why do you think your boss is there? Like why are they at that party? 

[00:13:38] Joe: Our boss is there, number one, I think, to show leadership, right? And to show that, uh, in unity this is important. And I would think,

[00:13:51] Joe: do you like it when I get the aha halfway through the answer? I hope all the stackers just heard that. And for those of you who don’t watching the video as my face turns red, and so I’m like, and maybe they wanna get to know their workers a little better too, Charles. 

[00:14:04] Charles: It could be. And so what I love about what you just said is that they want to like show their leadership and they wanna get to know their workers a little bit better.

[00:14:11] Charles: And so let’s use that as a roadmap. Let’s go up and say, Hey, Mrs. Corcoran, I just want you to know, like I thank you for all the work you’ve done in the last year. Like I just feel like this company is like on the right path. It’s doing great. I feel really, really seen and appreciated here. And so I just wanted to thank you for that.

[00:14:28] Charles: And I actually did have a question for you. I’m, I’m wondering how you’re thinking about the future, but I, I know you’ve got a lot of people to talk to you right now. If it’s okay, can I email you my question and, and see if you might have, you know, 15 or 20 minutes to get together for lunch someday, where we can talk it through?

[00:14:43] Charles: Fabulous. Yeah, I mean, and what’s, what I did there is I put a question in their head and I didn’t require them to answer it, right? Because there’s the difference between mandating something and inviting something. When I ask you, oh, why’d you decide to become a doctor? I’m inviting you to tell me more about who you are.

[00:15:02] Charles: When I ask you what’s the hardest case you’ve ever had that made you cry, I’m kind of mandating you to give me something deep, right? Yeah. And so what I wanna do is I want to invite and not mandate, you know, if you only have 30 seconds, that’s not really a lot for back and forth, but that is enough time to put a question out there and say, I know that you, um, you went to business school and I’m thinking of going to business school.

[00:15:24] Charles: Is it okay if I drop you a note? ’cause I just wanna ask you like, what made you decide to go to business school and do, do you think it was a good decision? So I’m, I’m showing them, I’m actually interested in who they are. That gives me their ability to send that follow up email. 

[00:15:37] Joe: That’s fabulous. Is there something, by the way, that super communicators do physically?

[00:15:43] Joe: You know, I’m thinking about some of these, if you remember the eighties and nineties in the old NLP language of I lean forward a little bit, or I look you in the eye, or I focus on this thing. Are there anything, super communicators are really good with nonverbal cues, 

[00:15:58] Charles: so nonverbal cues are really important in language, but it’s the type of thing where if you’re thinking about them, you’re probably not doing them very well.

[00:16:06] Charles: And so people tend to say, you should have a firm handshake and you should look them in the eyes. There’s really no science to back this up. Different people have different methods of communicating. What is important is to be fully present, because if I’m fully present with you in that conversation, my body is automatically showing you that I’m interested.

[00:16:25] Charles: And one of the things that we know that’s interesting from neuroscience about communication is that when you’re in conversation with someone, your body and your brain actually starts to change. Your breath patterns will start to match each other. Your heart rate will start to match each other. And most importantly, if we could see inside your head, we would see that your neural activity is becoming more and more similar.

[00:16:44] Charles: This is known as neural entrainment within neuroscience, and it’s actually the goal of communication. We think of communication as something that’s about transmitting information, but it’s not. That’s just a side aspect. A a lucky beneficiary. The reason communication exists, the reason why we evolve to communicate is so that we can feel connected to each other, so we can entrain with each other.

[00:17:04] Charles: And so if you are focused on really like having a real conversation on listening to what this person is saying on following them, they’re gonna know, they’re gonna see it in your posture. You’re not gonna have to think about like, how do I stand? Or how do I make eye contact? Whatever feels most present to you is the best thing to do.

[00:17:21] Joe: How do I fight all of the distractions at the holiday party? Let’s say I am trying to have a really good conversation. I’m trying to be present. You know, we’ve got music playing in the background. Somebody’s spilling the punch. There’s another conversation that’s a little too close to you and I, somebody says something about a horse, and all of a sudden I, I realize I like horses and so I’m trying to pay attention to this, but I overhear some of this.

[00:17:46] Joe: Are there some keys to making sure that you’re able to stay present and in the moment. 

[00:17:51] Charles: Absolutely. So the first thing is, if you’re at a holiday party, it’s okay to have a bunch of short conversations, right? I mean, at a holiday party is not really the time to have like a real heart to heart with someone.

[00:18:02] Charles: And so if you’re talking to someone and they mention a horse and this other conversation, it’s totally okay to say like, do you mind just to hit pause on what we’re talking about? They just mentioned a horse, and I love horses. So I think what’s important there is the setting actually matters. But let’s say that you’re at a party where there aren’t mentioning horses where you do wanna get a little bit deeper with this person at that moment, what’s really important is to prove to them that you’re listening.

[00:18:25] Charles: Because listening alone is often not enough. There’s a suspicion in all of our minds that the person we’re talking to is not actually listening to us. They’re just waiting their turn to speak, right? Or they’re looking over our shoulder to see if there’s someone like more important or more famous, they should go talk to.

[00:18:40] Charles: No, I hate that. It’s the worst. It’s the worst. And so I think what’s important is that. We have to prove that we’re listening. And the way that we do that is oftentimes by repeating back what we hear the person saying, not in the same words. There’s actually a technique for this known as looping for understanding that you can use in conflict situations, which is that step one is you ask a question.

[00:19:01] Charles: Step two is you repeat back in your own words, which you heard the other person say. And it’s important to do it in your own words, right? Not to mimic them. But the goal here is to say, you know, you said this thing before that’s really interesting to me, or, or, let me see if I’m getting this right. What you’re saying is, and then step three, which is the one I always forget, is ask if you got it right.

[00:19:18] Charles: Did I hear you correctly? Because what I’m really doing at that moment is I’m asking for permission to acknowledge that I was listening. And if you acknowledge that I’m listening to you, you become much more likely to listen to me in return. 

[00:19:30] Joe: I love that so much, by the way, when people do that, when they say, did I hear you correctly?

[00:19:34] Joe: Did you say it does, just this acknowledgement makes me feel heard. So it is this check, and it’s funny because I love it, but Charles, I don’t do it enough. 

[00:19:45] Charles: I, it’s hard, right? It’s hard. And I’ll say we don’t have to do it all the time. In conflict conversations, in situations where we disagree with someone, where there’s a little bit of tension, it’s incredibly powerful.

[00:19:55] Charles: But in most of our conversations, we don’t have to do that because we can show that we’re listening simply by asking a follow-up question, you know? Or by saying, oh, it’s so funny you mention that, that reminds me of this thing that happened to me. I just wanna prove to you that I’m paying attention, and more importantly, that I’m processing what you’re saying instead of just like biting my time until it’s my turn to say something.

[00:20:14] Joe: I love the idea from earlier. I wanna go back to earlier, and the idea of it was really the first technique that you shared, Charles, which was, I do a little bit of homework ahead of time. I’m a little bit prepared. I might not use any of the preparation. I thought that was fascinating. No, I didn’t use any of it.

[00:20:30] Joe: We had such a good time. We did that, but I felt prepared, which gave me confidence. But a lot of that preparation is thinking about the people that are going to be at the party tonight. After you and I record this, I’m headed to this event, and I know a few people there, and being an introvert, I’m going to do that.

[00:20:47] Joe: But let’s say, and you’ve done this, I’ve walked into a neighborhood gathering before and horror of horrors. There is nobody there that I know. I know nobody. Oh, this happens all the time. Or the new person at work, like what do I do when preparation becomes 

[00:21:04] Charles: that much harder? So the preparation doesn’t necessarily have to be specific to the pre people who are in that crowd.

[00:21:09] Charles: ’cause you’re right, a lot of times we don’t know who’s gonna be at the party, and the preparation doesn’t even have to be specific to this event. I might have a couple questions that I usually ask. So when I walk into a setting like that, I give a lot of speeches, right? And so oftentimes before the speech, there’s people milling around who are gonna be in the audience, and I’ll just walk over and I’ll be like, Hey, I just wanna introduce myself.

[00:21:29] Charles: I’m Charles. I’m just wondering like, what brought you to this conference today? So like everyone loves being asked questions like that. Everyone loves being asked questions, period. And I think in those situations it’s really easy to walk up and just ask a question. It’s much easier than saying something about yourself.

[00:21:47] Charles: The second part of that is, let’s say we ask that question and I find out this person is not someone I wanna talk to, right? So how do I gracefully exit that conversation? The way to do it is oftentimes simply to announce that you have to right to say, oh man, it’s been so great talking to you. I apologize, I don’t wanna keep you.

[00:22:06] Charles: ’cause I know that there’s a bunch of people here you need to meet with and I have to, I have to go find my boss somewhere in the crowd. But it’s so great meeting you. So what I’m doing in the air is I’m telling them, look, I really like you, but we do both have to move on to another conversation. And that’s okay.

[00:22:20] Charles: That takes the sting of it away and the awkwardness of it away. 

[00:22:23] Joe: And that sometimes feels hard. And they’re like, no, wait. But I wanna tell you one more dead joke. Yeah. And, and if they do, then that’s okay 

[00:22:30] Charles: too, right? But usually people are like, yeah, thank you so much. It’s so nice to, to meet you as well. And you walk away with this very warm feeling as opposed to a feeling of awkwardness.

[00:22:39] Joe: You talked, the second piece was listening and proving that you’re listening. I interrupted there. What is the third? What’s the third piece of being a super communicator? 

[00:22:49] Charles: The third part of being a super communicator is to recognize that there’s different kinds of conversation. And oftentimes when we’re in a conversation, we might move from different type to different type, but we have to move together.

[00:23:00] Charles: So most conversations fall into one of three buckets. There are practical conversations where we’re making plans, we’re solving problems, but then there’s also kind of emotional conversations where I tell you something about my life or I tell you what I’m feeling. And I don’t want you to solve that problem for me.

[00:23:14] Charles: I don’t want you to solve my emotions. I want you just to listen and empathize and share with me. Then there’s social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other and to society, the identities that are important to us. And what’s really important is that researchers have found that all three of these different kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate.

[00:23:30] Charles: And in a discussion you’ll probably move from emotional to practical and back to emotional and then to social. But if two people are talking to each other and if they aren’t having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, it’s very hard for them to fully hear each other and it’s very hard for them to feel connected.

[00:23:47] Joe: Why is that? Because we get triggered 

[00:23:49] Charles: early in the conversation, or Well, I think because why would we be like schiff’s passing on night? Yeah. I think because we’re not actually present, we’re not actually listening to the other person. Okay. Right. What we’re doing is we’re saying like, I’m gonna talk to my wife and I’m gonna tell her like.

[00:24:03] Charles: She’s upset about this thing, and I’m gonna tell her all the solutions I have to solve that problem. Well, I’m thinking there about myself. I’m thinking about what I want instead of what she wants and what we can build together that we both want. And so one of the things that super communicators do is they spend just a couple of seconds at the beginning of a conversation asking themselves, is this a social conversation or an emotional conversation or practical conversation?

[00:24:24] Charles: What kind of frame of mind does this person seem in? And then oftentimes they’ll match them or they’ll invite them to match themselves. And once we’re aligned, we can move from conversation to conversation together very easily. But the key is, if you come up and you’re talking about something emotional, you’re telling me about a fight that you had with your, you know, 18-year-old son.

[00:24:46] Charles: And I say, oh, here’s a solution for that. Here’s what you ought to do. Then we’re having different kinds of conversations. But if I just take a moment and say, God, that sounds so hard. I’m so sorry. I’ve had struggles like that with my own kids, and I know like how much it can keep you up at. If it’s okay, can I tell you a couple things that I do with my kids that I think has made a difference?

[00:25:04] Charles: In other words, do I have your permission for us to move from an emotional conversation to a practical conversation together? That works really, really well. 

[00:25:13] Joe: And again, the framework, Charles, of not mandating, but inviting. 

[00:25:17] Charles: That’s exactly right. Because when we invite, rather than mandate, what we do is we make the person feel safe.

[00:25:25] Joe: You mentioned giving speeches and there are times at at a holiday event, let’s say I’m hosting the holiday event and maybe it’s time for me to make, to make a speech or give a toast or do something like that. Is there a way that super communicators stand out when they’re speaking to a room full of people where others don’t?

[00:25:44] Charles: I think they do, they, number one is they’re usually brief. When a toast doesn’t go well or a speech doesn’t go well, it’s usually because it’s too long and people are kind of getting bored. They were in the middle of a conversation, they wanna go back to it. So brevity is the soul of wit here. But then the second thing is, oftentimes what you’ll notice is that the best speeches are speeches where people reveal something about themselves.

[00:26:06] Charles: They indulge a little bit of vulnerability because it’s interesting to look at vulnerability. And vulnerability makes that person real. And so I think that the two things you can do is keep your comments brief and then talk about who you are. And, and that doesn’t mean you have to talk about like, you know, the time your mom was mean to you or why you cried on the shoulder of your spouse recently.

[00:26:26] Charles: Vulnerability doesn’t mean that vulnerability simply means telling you something about myself that is meaningful to me, and that you could judge if you wanted to, but I’m hoping that you won’t. 

[00:26:37] Joe: When we began talking about this, when you were on and super communicators, super connectors, all of the above.

[00:26:46] Joe: I still think of it as super connectors. I can’t, that’s okay. That’s all right. I can’t help it because I truly do think they’re super connectors. 

[00:26:52] Charles: I do too. 

[00:26:52] Joe: But when super communicators first came out, we talked about this and talking about it now again, in light of the holiday season, it just strikes me again, Charles, how much we think being a super communicator is about charisma.

[00:27:07] Joe: And you’re saying it’s really much, much more about curiosity. 

[00:27:11] Charles: Yeah, it’s absolutely right. When researchers look at charisma, there’s what people think is charisma. Oh, he is handsome, or she’s beautiful, and they, they just have the gift of gab. They can tell such great stories and they, they just seem so optimistic and funny all the time.

[00:27:25] Charles: And then if you actually study those people who have been deemed to be charismatic, the ones who tell stories all the time. Kind of do the stereotypical charismatic things. Everyone thinks they’re a blowhard, like they don’t come off as charismatic. They misunderstand what charisma is, what charisma is.

[00:27:43] Charles: It’s not about proving to you that I am great. It’s about making you feel like you are great. When I ask you a question, I say, oh, that’s so interesting. I’ve had similar experience in my life, but like the fact that you handled it that way, that’s really admirable. All of a sudden you think I’m charismatic because talking to me, you enjoy talking to me so much, right?

[00:28:03] Charles: It makes you feel good about yourself, and that’s what charisma actually is. Charisma, you’re exactly right. We should think of it as curiosity. We should think of it as this willingness to go places with a person to really try and figure out who is this person? What makes them tick? What do they want to talk about right now?

[00:28:19] Charles: How can I invite them to talk to me about it? That’s what true, genuine charisma is. 

[00:28:25] Joe: Which to me is far more interesting because this discovery, like this exploration is so exciting. I think it turns every party into what can I learn that I didn’t know before? You know? So in some ways it kind of p parallels, uh, Carol Dweck, right?

[00:28:39] Joe: And this growth mentality, it really is parallel thinking to that. 

[00:28:44] Charles: Well, and what I love about it is that it changes the burden you place on yourself. When I go to a party, my goal is not to walk away with everyone thinking I’m really funny, or I’m really clever, or I’m really smart. My goal is just to understand who other people are.

[00:28:58] Charles: And if I have one real conversation at that party and I walk away saying, you know, Jim’s a lot more interesting than I thought. He was like, did you know that, that he grew up abroad? If you do that, that party, and that conversation was a huge success. You were the best version of yourself at that party.

[00:29:15] Charles: And so it’s easier to go to those parties when I set the expectation. Not that I’m gonna impress everyone with how smart I am, or they, they’re gonna think I’m so dynamic, but rather I just wanna learn about at least one other person. Then suddenly the stakes are so much lower for me and I, and I feel so much more confident walking in.

[00:29:31] Charles: It’s 

[00:29:31] Joe: funny, it’s been a long time since I read The Great Gatsby, but I just, I seem to remember even at the beginning when Nick goes to the party and for people who haven’t read The Great Gatsby, I apologize, but it just seems like the reason the Great Gatsby at the beginning is so loved is because he made everybody feel like they were something that they were important, that they were this bigger than themselves and elevated everyone else around them, less about him.

[00:29:52] Joe: And if you’ll remember, 

[00:29:53] Charles: most people at those parties never met Jay Gatsby, right? Right. He would, he would stay up in his room and he would like Moon for Daisy, the woman that he was like in love with. And so he did. They didn’t even know him, but because he brought, invited them to this thing that made them feel special and that he clearly like wanted them to feel at home.

[00:30:12] Charles: They thought he was the most wonderful guy on earth. 

[00:30:14] Joe: Super communicators has been out for a while now. I know hundreds of thousands of people have read the book, have listened to the audio book. There’s gotta be something though after hundreds of interviews. And clearly, by the way, the best too. I’m sure we’re a mom’s spaceman.

[00:30:27] Joe: I know. You don’t have to say that’s definitely true, but that’s That’s right. But there’s gotta be something you’re like, I don’t think interviewers ask me about this one piece enough. Is there a piece of super communicators that is just being underexplored by people that do what I do? 

[00:30:46] Charles: Yeah. So I think it’s a really good question, and you’re right, it’s been out for a little while.

[00:30:50] Charles: The paperback came out I think about two months ago now. I think the one thing that when it comes up is most valuable that, that sometimes people don’t get to is what is the role of communication in living a good life? And it turns out there was a study that was done, the Harvard Study of Adult Development, also known as the grant study, where they followed thousands of people throughout their entire lives.

[00:31:11] Charles: What they found is that there was really only one predictor of lifelong health and happiness and success. And that was that people who are happiest and healthiest and most successful at age 65 had at least a couple of close friends at age 45. And that doesn’t mean that they talk to those people every single day or every single week, or even every single month, but there was at least a couple of people that they went out of their way to keep in touch with, to have conversations with.

[00:31:39] Charles: It is these relationships that we have with the people around us, be it our spouses, our kids, our friends, our coworkers. It’s these relationships that make life meaningful. And so everyone who’s listening, there’s someone in your life who you haven’t talked to in a long time, and you like that person a lot, and it’s just now it feels awkward ’cause you can’t really remember what their wife’s name is, right?

[00:32:00] Charles: And you can’t remember how old their kids are. And you’re worried you’re gonna call up and it’s gonna seem weird, and you’re gonna be like, by the way, what’s your wife’s name? But if you call them up today. The first 20 seconds might be a little bit awkward, and the next 20 minutes are gonna be wonderful, and you are gonna feel so good about yourself and the world and your friend, and you’re gonna be so happy that you picked up the phone.

[00:32:21] Charles: So that’s the thing that I think people should carry away, is that conversations are what make life meaningful, and the more that we lean into them, the better off we are. 

[00:32:30] Joe: That is Charles, to me, what Stacking Benjamins is all about, it’s not about more money, it’s about more life, more meaning in our life.

[00:32:37] Joe: I mean, money’s just a route to the end. And man, this time of year when we can communicate not just more, ’cause we’re gonna communicate more this month, whether we want to or not communicate better is so important. Thank you so much for mentoring our stackers again today. It’s good seeing you, my friend.

[00:32:53] Joe: It’s good seeing you too. Thank you so much for having me on. This is such a treat for me. And let’s go back. The paperback Super communicator is now available everywhere. 

[00:33:02] Charles: Everywhere you buy books and on audio on Audible and audiobook. I, I recorded it myself, so I, and I’d love to hear from folks, 

[00:33:09] Joe: just one last thing.

[00:33:10] Joe: Do you find that fun recording the audio book? I find it to be work. It’s hard, right? I don’t know if you’ve done this before, but like it was far harder with stacked than I thought that it was going to be, but by a bajillion percent. 

[00:33:22] Charles: Yeah. In order for the words to work, you can’t really, you have to both be thinking about what you’re saying and not thinking about what you’re saying.

[00:33:28] Charles: And I, I find it to be a kind of exhausting activity, but I’m really pleased with the product afterwards. And it’s always nice to like go back and be like, oh, you know what? That sentence came out better than I thought it would. And then to look at other sentences and be like, God, that just, you could have found a more graceful way of saying that, 

[00:33:46] bit: hi, I’m Mitchell Walker and when I’m not teaching people how to find hidden money, I’m out Stacking Benjamins.

[00:33:56] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Duggan. Today we celebrate the birthday of an invention that cleaned up America’s biggest dumps. Imagine this, it’s the year 1857 and your New York businessman, Joseph Gati, you’ve realized there’s one dirty job that you need to clean up, especially after a night of Mexican food if you’re Joe’s mom.

[00:34:19] Doug: So you created Gatti’s medicated paper to wipe away your troubles. That’s right. You just scoured your brain for the recipe to make the first commercially sold toilet paper. Congrats. But I won’t shake your hand until you washed it. I know you skipped last week, the McDonald’s. Let’s keep this relationship sanitary.

[00:34:40] Doug: Here’s today’s question. When it comes to Amazon sales, what toilet paper brand wipes the other’s asses? Is it Scott Quilted Northern, or Charmin? I’ll be back with the cleanest answer you can imagine.

[00:35:02] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m four squares max and guy who hates unclogging the toilet. Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. Back in 1857, Joseph Gati probably made a killing when he smoothed out the world’s problems and debuted the first commercially available toilet paper. Of course, as always, I’m sure that Gati was working as toilet paper magic in private when these big companies open the door exposing a whole new industry, and it made things awkward for everyone.

[00:35:30] Doug: That’s why today Gati is nowhere to be seen. And instead, the industry is dominated by Charmin, made by Procter Gamble, quilted Northern, made by Georgia Pacific, and Scott owned by Kimberly Clark. All huge companies, but which of these behemoths wipes the skid marks off the others when it comes to Amazon sales?

[00:35:50] Doug: It’s Kimberly Clark’s Scott that wins the day, and that truly is the butt of this trivia. And now back to two guys who are wiping clean your money worries Joe and og.

[00:36:06] Joe: Oh man. How many Smoothening? WIPs? Yeah. Might’ve gone a little far on that one. I don’t think we’ve used Scott in, 

[00:36:14] Doug: uh, this house, in mom’s house here. No, because Scott doesn’t make anything over two ply. And that’s, uh, being generous. Those are 

[00:36:24] Joe: two of the thinnest plys possible. But it is wild how now those, I mean those are major corporations.

[00:36:29] Joe: Georgia Pacific. Oh yeah. Kimberly Clark, Proctor and Gamble. Fighting it out over toilet paper. Can you imagine if you’re at that? Speaking of the holiday party, by the way, big thanks to Charles Duhig. People like, so what do you do? You’re like, I’m the charming guy. Like I’m on the, I’m on the Charmin team.

[00:36:44] Joe: Mr. Whipple, are you familiar with him? That’s my uncle. Where’s the innovation by the way? In Charmin. We gotta do something new this year. What have they tried? Like sparkly Charmin. 

[00:36:53] Doug: Now the tail spicy strips is like spicy.

[00:37:01] OG: Did you have too much salsa yesterday? You make 

[00:37:02] Doug: honey spicy now. Why not toilet paper. Do you wish you would have

[00:37:09] OG: now you can eat healthy and still feel like you had four alarm chili, 

[00:37:17] Doug: get all the feels? 

[00:37:18] OG: Yes. None of the calories. 

[00:37:21] Doug: You’re right. I mean, they’ve gotta come up with stuff to, to keep advertising toilet paper. So I think, I don’t know if it’s Charmin or Quilted Northern, but now the tear off strip is like a curved line instead of just a straight, like, what, how is that making my life 

[00:37:34] Joe: better?

[00:37:35] Joe: That is another holiday party one. So, so, no, no, no. I’m not, I’m not just a toilet paper guy. You ever use the one with a curvy line? That is me. That was 

[00:37:44] Doug: me that came outta my big brain. Let’s go to our headline. 

[00:37:48] headlines: Hello Darlings. And now it’s time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin’s headlines.

[00:37:55] Joe: Our headline today comes to us from Market Watch. This story is by Jenna Canino. Jenna writes about, uh, this new trend this year, guys over Black Friday. The big sales weren’t just where Reina Conway, who comes on from Slick Deals every year, tells us about all the great sales, not just at the usual spaces like she talked about this year.

[00:38:17] Joe: You know, who else was having sales? Thrift stores were having sales. Jenna writes, Haley Doyle’s love for thrifting began in high school when she would take her pocket money to shop for secondhand t-shirts and jeans to curate her personal style. More than a decade later, the North Carolina based artist still gets a thrill for the treasure hunt at secondhand stores.

[00:38:39] Joe: She’s an eagle eye for clothing with a hundred percent cotton on the tag, or sterling silver jewelry stamped with a tiny 9 25 indicating the quality of material thrifting isn’t just for fun. It’s also more affordable than shopping at big box stores of the mall. I actually start looking at Christmas things in the summer to spread out the expense.

[00:38:57] Joe: She says times are hard and have only gotten harder. Frankly. Doyle 28 described herself as somewhere in the middle of Gen Z millennials, groups that have fueled thrifting growing popularity over the past several years. It turns out what all the kids are doing, OG is. Shopping at thrift stores and giving secondhand gifts to each other.

[00:39:17] Joe: I don’t know. If you got a hand me down from Doug, would you be offended or would you be high fiving him going, nice job, finding a cool deal on, you know, maybe a really nice driver that might, uh, need some new grips soon. 

[00:39:31] OG: Oh, I was thinking about clothes and I was thinking I would have to take in the waist like four inches or something, but Wow.

[00:39:37] OG: Four feet. Um, 

[00:39:41] Joe: I don’t know. I 

[00:39:41] OG: don’t have an 

[00:39:41] Joe: opinion about it. Like if he got you the driver that you wanted Uhhuh, Mr. Golfer, but it had been swung a couple other times by somebody before you Yeah. I 

[00:39:53] OG: mean, 

[00:39:53] Joe: would you be like, that’s great. Thank you. 

[00:39:56] OG: I mean, especially if it saved a bunch of money. Yeah, sure.

[00:39:59] OG: Yes. It means if it’s not broken, right. Lemme get 

[00:40:01] Doug: this straight. So there’s no shrink wrap on the club head. There’s no price sticker on the shaft. There’s some, like the dimple impressions are right near, near the Zel, the heel of the club, or there’s like a couple of nicks on the top of the driver because I got underneath it.

[00:40:16] Doug: You’re like, it’s all good, bro. Driver. Yeah, I driver mean. I wouldn’t be excited 

[00:40:19] OG: by that, honestly. But if it’s a nearly new condition, sure. What’s the difference? 

[00:40:24] Doug: Wow. It’s not the answer I expected, Joe. 

[00:40:27] OG: It’s like a car, right? It’s like you could go buy a brand new car or you can get one that was like the dealer demo and has 1800 miles on it, which is still pretty new in the grand scheme of things.

[00:40:39] OG: And Right. Save $15,000, like it’s the same car. 

[00:40:43] Doug: Sure. But what does it say about in that? It’s a different exchange, right? That’s your choice if you’re going to, you’re making your own. Um, yes, financially prudent decision to buy a used car. But when someone’s gifting you something that’s used, doesn’t it feel a little different?

[00:40:59] Doug: Unless it’s some vintage thing or hard to get or something like that. 

[00:41:02] OG: It ultimately just depends on what it is. Right? Like underwear, probably not a big fan. 

[00:41:06] Doug: Yeah. Pass. I washed them. I don’t know how many times they have to tell you that. 

[00:41:10] OG: I mean, 

[00:41:11] Joe: you didn’t bleach ’em, which clearly was needed. It does depend on what shape it’s in.

[00:41:15] Joe: I agree with that, og. I mean, if it’s in, yeah, if it’s in really nice shape. 

[00:41:19] OG: I think you can also like have the conversation like, you know, Doug gives me a driver. I’m just using this as an example. And for those who don’t know, a brand new driver’s like $700, right? You’d be like, what the heck, Doug? Like, holy crap, there’s no, wow.

[00:41:33] OG: No. This is ridiculous, right? Like, yes, I love you, but I’m married friends, don’t give friends $700 drivers. To which Doug would reply, no, no, no, no. You gotta hear me out on this one. I found this, I was at this store, it was at the plate against sports. The guy said it would only been used twice, and the guy said, you know, he brought it in.

[00:41:49] OG: It was hell of a deal. And I know you said you were looking for a driver. I just thought this would be a good, you know, like if you kind of pair that with the story because it’s so obnoxiously expensive on the front end and then go, but here’s, here’s why I, here’s how I got there. I think that helps quite a bit because I wouldn’t accept a driver from Doug.

[00:42:08] OG: ’cause it’s like, you know, they’re like 700 bucks. Like what? I’m like, no way. I get Doug like a candle, 

[00:42:13] Doug: which you did one year and it came broken. I actually have this, this exact problem solved. It’s funny you picked this example, Joe, that I know just kind of came to the top of your head. But this happened to me.

[00:42:26] Doug: My brother gave me an entire set of irons. Back when King Cobra Irons were the top of the market in the, in the nineties for my birthday, he gave me a whole set of irons. But the pitching wedge had like a nick or a dent out of the, the leading edge. He claims he was managing a golf shop at the time outside of Boston, and he claims that a guy came in, threw the box back at him at the counter and said, these suck.

[00:42:53] Doug: I, I’m returning ’em, I’m getting new ones. And so he’s like, I got a set of irons I can’t do anything with. ’cause one of them’s a little damaged. So he claims he gave them to me. I have to this day still accused him of stealing them from the back 

[00:43:07] Joe: because that’s what brothers do at the holidays. That’s exactly what brothers do.

[00:43:10] Joe: That brother, you could have found a deal or you’re a thief. 

[00:43:14] OG: He low jacked him hoping that you get arrested. 

[00:43:18] Doug: But it did feel like in that case, I guess you’re right, it felt. It was, it would’ve been way over the top. If he didn’t have that story to back it up, I would’ve, I would’ve been like, something doesn’t feel right here.

[00:43:28] OG: Yeah. Like a whole set of like, you know, like a sweater or something. I’d be like, oh cool, thanks. Like, no, no, no, it’s awesome. It’s j crew I got, but I got it for $8 at the thrift shop. I’d be like, cool with a K. 

[00:43:42] Joe: See? And what’s funny is I think that also you wouldn’t like that, but there may be people that like X type of sweater and would think that, that’s great.

[00:43:52] Joe: Like my daughter, if you found her, uh, sweater at a thrift shop for eight bucks, she would high five you. So I think it’s as much about who the receiver is too. Yeah. 

[00:44:03] OG: Ultimately, do you even, like, unless you say that you bought it there, 

[00:44:08] Joe: how would anybody would know? I would come clean immediately. I would, well, here’s the reason why.

[00:44:14] Joe: Let me tell you the reason why, because my, we’re using real names because. My sister-in-law gives me this book about, uh, but this is several years ago about Enron and about the whole Enron meltdown and how that whole thing in Houston actually happened. Turns out it was fraud. And she goes, spoiler. She goes, I really love this book, and I thought of you when I read it.

[00:44:41] Joe: Now when somebody says, I love this book and I thought of you when I read it, I think they have their copy and I’m getting a different copy. And she actually was passing it off like it was a brand new book. There was one dogeared page, like page 225, and then I realized Laura didn’t love this book. Laura loved this particular copy of this book and then gave it to me when she was finished.

[00:45:11] Joe: If she had said, I know you’re a finance fan, so I read this already and I thought you would really like it. That was one thing. By the way, the same year. She gives my father-in-law this VHS collection of all the James Bond movies. That looks great. Right? It’s, it’s pretty cool. It’s not in the original freak wrap, but it’s pretty cool.

[00:45:32] Joe: Three minutes later she says out loud, we got a new DVD player. She’s cleaning her house, giving gifts to family members and trying to pass them all off. See, I 

[00:45:43] OG: think that’s different, like in the holiday spirit of that’s a balance because not everybody can go drop a bunch of money on a bunch of stuff, but I would much rather like have had the experience where somebody said, like you said, Hey, I, I’m done with this.

[00:46:01] OG: I think you’d like it here. And you go, oh, cool book. Right? Yeah. Like not under the guise of like, I got you this gift. 

[00:46:08] Doug: Yeah. 

[00:46:09] OG: To me, that’s the worst part of it. It’s not the fact that your father-in-law got this set of VHS tapes. It’s the fact that it was. Tried to be like this. Yeah. Grandiose. Yeah. Gesture.

[00:46:22] OG: That wasn’t, there’s nothing wrong with saying, Hey, you know, here’s a book that I think my friend would like, or, I know you’re into James Bond and I have no use for this anymore ’cause we got a DVD player. But I thought you could use it. I thought you might enjoy it. That’s fine too. A hundred percent. Like all of that’s great.

[00:46:39] Joe: If she had led with a DVD player and then, you know, I was thinking you would love this and I looked at all the other stuff. You don’t need more junk. You would like this way more. So I thought I’d give it to you. 

[00:46:49] OG: Yeah, a hundred percent. Like that’s a, I mean, I think the, I don’t wanna say sliminess ’cause that sounds worse than I want it to be, but I think the sliminess of this is when, when you try to pass it off as something very thoughtful and new, but it’s not right.

[00:47:08] OG: There’s no rule that says you have to give your friends and family new stuff like. Don’t really have to say you have to give anybody anything. We’ve, and we’ve talked about this on the show years ago, we’ve had several Christmases long time ago where we were like, yeah, we’re out. We just don’t have it right now.

[00:47:26] OG: It’s just not, there’s no budget for it. Like I got mortgages to pay car payments and student loans. That’s my gift is I’m paying that stuff and still, my gift to you, Joe, is I’m gonna stay current on my mortgage payment so I don’t have to come and live at your house. That’s my gift to you. 

[00:47:43] Joe: I had a family, I worked with Russell, and Deborah hired me just before the holidays when I was a planner.

[00:47:48] Joe: We sat down and there was going to be very little money for if they wanted to get the ship back on track. There’s could be very little money. You know what they told me when we met in January to round out the financial plan, get everything rolling. They said it was one of the best Christmases they’d ever had because they, they focused on each other and they focused on the time.

[00:48:07] Joe: Mm-hmm. The season. They didn’t fo they didn’t spend all their time just hunting for the, 

[00:48:12] OG: trying to consumerism Yeah. Back out of it. Which is fine too, you know, like if you’re into gift giving and that sort of thing. Sure. But anyways, I, there’s a balancing act here. I don’t want to come across as sounding like, ew, it’s so disgusting to have used things like, ’cause that’s not true.

[00:48:28] OG: No. 

[00:48:29] Joe: When I 

[00:48:29] OG: read 

[00:48:29] Joe: this, I, 

[00:48:30] OG: I would rather repurpose a lot of stuff. You know, that’s repurposeable and when people say, you know, it’s funny because I think some of it is the term and it’s a Gen X term. Of like when you say thrift store, I think that people in our generation and older think that’s where poor people go.

[00:48:50] OG: And now it’s more, I mean like they have apps for it, like Poshmark. Oh yeah. Like, oh, you don’t like that $8,000 dress anymore. Someone will buy it from you for four. What a bargain. Like we, when that happens, we’re like, look at how smart I am when it’s like I have this $500 pair of jeans that I got for two 50 on Poshmark.

[00:49:10] OG: I’m so amazing. And then on both sides of that transaction, right? It’s like, I’m so amazing. I got rid of this and I got money and I’m so amazing. I picked up these great jeans for 250 bucks that I was buy at needless markup for 500. It’s like, but all of a sudden you, you, you drop that down to a set of pots and pans at your local shop and it’s like, ah, I 

[00:49:31] Doug: wouldn’t do that.

[00:49:32] Doug: Yeah. I mean, one of. One of the many points of gift giving, certainly not necessarily the point of the holidays. It’s a whole different topic, but one of the points of the gift giving is to show that you really love and care and know about that person and made a choice to get them something that they would value and showed, yeah, some depth to your relationship.

[00:49:52] Doug: And if you just hand them a wire whisk out of the kitchen drawer because you happen to get a new stand mixer, so you gave them the old wire whisk that you’re done with, don’t ask me why I use this example. Then you know that it actually devalues the relationship. It that person is gonna be like, really, this is all the effort you put into, into this interaction, into this exchange.

[00:50:13] Doug: So you gotta kind of pick your spots. Like you said, autumn would love the fact that you found an $8, a great sweater at some discounted price. She would value that. Maybe you gotta put, wrap that up with a little story so that she would appreciate it and realize why there’s no tags on it. But, uh, you, you gotta pick your spots, I think, and your recipients.

[00:50:32] Doug: Yeah, 

[00:50:32] Joe: don’t pass it off. It’s something that’s not, you know, Karen Holland, uh, the Amazing Woman We help as stackers, we all helped raise money for during the month of [email protected]. Karen, when she was on the show at the beginning of November, talked about how the world doesn’t need more stuff in landfills and nobody wants to give a gift that people don’t appreciate.

[00:50:50] Joe: So if you would appreciate something that I got you that might be used ’cause I can afford it while it’s used, versus buying something new that’s just gonna sit or be trash or, you know, nobody wants that. Listen to the stuff that is hot at thrift stores. ’cause I think most of these I would love used well in again, in good condition.

[00:51:13] Joe: The hot stuff at thrift stores this season, vinyl records. My son gave me a record player, and I’m now upgrading to a, a nicer stereo to play vinyl. There’s something really fun about going back into record stores now or going to, uh, garage sales and looking through these old, you know, some of these old records and just hearing that crackle.

[00:51:35] Joe: So, vinyl records, classic books, nostalgic toys, funky mugs, serving dishes, and high-end cookware. If you can get a high-end piece of cookware that’s used and you’re somebody that loves being in the kitchen, those are all things I think a lot of us would love you. Sports equipment could be an affordable option for kids asking for new gear this Christmas, the average amount family spend on child’s primary sport was $1,016 in 2024, according to the Aspen Institute’s project play, 46% increase, by the way, since 2019.

[00:52:10] Joe: Cost of kid sports going through the the roof. I think og you’ve seen that firsthand. 

[00:52:17] Doug: His kids don’t even play the expensive sports. 

[00:52:19] OG: Uh, I would disagree. My daughter played in a whole day softball tournament this weekend and, you know, new uniforms, um, for the tournament. You know, she had to have a fancy bat that she doesn’t swing.

[00:52:34] OG: Oh, that’s not fair. She does swing it from time. She tries 

[00:52:38] Joe: some things from this piece and I’ll, and I will link to it on our show notes. These are some tips from top thrifts. Give items a good once over for scratches, wear and tear rips and stains. Check clothing material on tags. Items made by of natural fibers like cotton, silk, linen, and wool.

[00:52:55] Joe: More sustainable, better quality than those made with plastic based fabrics. Look for items with original tags implying they haven’t been used or worn. Check jewelry for quality stamps. Look for a tiny 9 2 5 stamp to confirm a piece of sterling silver or 10 K, 14 K or 18 K to confirm the quality gold, although I’ve seen that faked.

[00:53:14] Joe: Wash any cookware before you gift it. No, that’s a big one. Look through the racks for Nike, Adidas, L Luman, ALO True Religion or Levi’s to get a, hold on. What was the other one? Discount. 

[00:53:24] OG: What’s the True Religion? Nope. The one that starts with an L. 

[00:53:28] Doug: L Luman. Lulu, man, you made it sound like a guy wearing a bowling shirt.

[00:53:34] Doug: Like Lou Laman. L Laman, isn’t it 

[00:53:37] Joe: L Laman? I thought it’s a guy that’s not a guy. I thought I thought Lou l Laman. Just let’s, let’s just abbreviate Lulu, a pair of Lulu’s, uh, true Religion or Levi’s to get a steepy discount. Willington is in our show notes at it’s jackie Benjamins dot com and, uh, yeah, go thrifting.

[00:53:54] Doug: This year I’m gonna pop some tags. Only got $20 in my pocket. Such a good song isn’t 

[00:54:00] OG: not about stealing clothes. 

[00:54:01] Doug: No, it’s the shirt, the, the song’s literally called Thrift Shop. It’s about how people are just stupid for buying all this stuff new. Gotcha. Joe, I know it’s getting cold out, but uh, I still like going out on the back porch ’cause that’s where I get to have my beverages.

[00:54:15] Doug: Can we pop out there for a second? 

[00:54:17] Joe: Yeah, let’s do it. We’ve got two things going on, Doug. First one is the success sessions. Start again in January. Those are 10 sessions with a small group, 30 or less, where I take you through 10, 90 minute sessions of my book stacked. We use that as the teaching tool and you put your financial plan together from the beginning to the end.

[00:54:39] Joe: It’s a small group. It is a great way to learn the basics of personal finance. You learn from each other, you learn from me. We had a great time the last two years doing it. You can see the reviews all over the place. Uh, Gertrude is putting the reviews up for past years. The average person who goes into this on a scale of one to 10 thinks they were a four and a half before the success sessions with their money and they were an eight and a half when they came out.

[00:55:03] Joe: So that’s the average score of all of our participants. So it’s stacky Benjamins dot com slash success to get in on those. Uh, you wanna do it before it fills up ’cause there’s only gonna be 30 people. Nice gift for yourself. For the new year. Now, the last thing, one of the last things we talk about is hiring good help.

[00:55:22] Joe: And if your goal, you already know your money, you know that you need more help, you need to do better in 2026 than you did in 2025 with your money OG and his team, Anna, and the team are taking on new clients. So head to stacky Benjamins dot com slash og. That’s where you find their calendar. And you know what?

[00:55:42] Joe: Just get on it if you know that having a coach. So two cool things, stacky Benjamins dot com slash og, or if you wanna dive in yourself, stacky Benjamins dot com slash success coming up on Wednesday. Speaking of gifting, speaking of gifting secondhand, I think a lot of people are like, uh, coach Handbag, maybe by that secondhand.

[00:56:07] Joe: Lou Frankfurt was the longtime CEO of coach and he joins us for lessons from how he ran coach and lessons about his career. This is a guy that didn’t start off in fashion at all. He was running kids programming for New York City when he changed careers completely. Can you change careers? Obviously Lou thinks you can.

[00:56:29] Joe: How do you navigate this brand new world of, uh, fashion? How do you open up the first whole new world? Yeah. How do you open up the first coach stores and he’s gonna talk about all those things more? It’s fascinating. We’re doing a case study of the brand coach with Lou Frankfort on Wednesday. Sweet. Today we’re doing a case study on this episode with Doug, who’s listed off, I see in front of him on the notepad, his top three things that should be on your to-do list.

[00:56:56] Doug: Sure did. Joe, here’s what everybody should have learned first. Take some advice from Charles Duhig. Invite people to have a deeper conversation about them, not you listening beats telling what you think is the world’s best story all day long. Second, that regift, if it’s something the receiver will like, who cares if it’s gently used?

[00:57:16] Doug: It costs less, keeps the item out of a landfill and will surely be loved by the recipient. So save yourself some money. But the big lesson, if you’re saving money, don’t do it by buying the cheap toilet paper. Just don’t. Just don’t. There are other places to economize people. Be kind to your behind. Thanks to Charles Duhig for helping us navigate the holiday party season.

[00:57:42] Doug: You’ll find his book Super Communicators wherever you find your favorite books. We’ll also share a link on your favorite website for financial knowledge. That’s us. It’s our website talking about us. Stacking Benjamins dot com. This show is the Property of SP podcast, LLC, copyright 2025, and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy.

[00:58:06] Doug: Joe gets some help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You’ll find out about our awesome team at Stacking Benjamins dot com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah, and before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know.

[00:58:28] Doug: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s Mom’s neighbor, Duggan. We’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[00:59:31] Joe: Welcome to the after show. This is the part of the show, new Stackers that doesn’t exist. What happens in the after show stays? In the after show, we don’t talk about it. We clean this place up, except we’re 

[00:59:40] Doug: about to talk about it and we’re publishing it on the internet. So does it really stay here? 

[00:59:46] Joe: It stays among friends.

[00:59:47] Joe: The friends only the people on the internet that can find this are the people that get it. The 

[00:59:52] OG: lazy people who haven’t hit stop yet on there. 

[00:59:54] Joe: But OG we get to find out who listens to us in the shower. Og, you were saying before we hit record today that you got 

[01:00:03] OG: I have, I have a great neighbor. Do you guys have good neighbors?

[01:00:06] OG: Doug, you’ve, you, you don’t like your neighbor, do you? Uh, 

[01:00:09] Doug: um, I really like one of our neighbors and the other one not so much 

[01:00:14] OG: like Mike or something. He’s the total ass, right? Is that what 

[01:00:17] Doug: you said? Yeah, he’s probably not listening to this. Mike is, uh, Mike is real name. We’re just gonna out him. He’s fairly, we are using his real name too.

[01:00:25] Doug: Absolutely. He’s fairly, fairly mercurial, can be a super nice guy. And then out of nowhere he’s just at, you know, uh, Carolina Reaper Hot. Your, 

[01:00:35] OG: your leaves fell on my side of the fence. 

[01:00:37] Doug: Yeah. 

[01:00:38] OG: I’m gonna sue you. 

[01:00:39] Doug: Little space. So my neighbor, Mike and I, were both on vacation for the same week in the summertime.

[01:00:44] Doug: And I got home maybe a day ahead of him. I need this huge tree between our two houses that died in that week. Every leaf was on the ground, middle of the summer. Trees bear. I mean, this is a huge tree, 50 feet tall when he comes home, I’m like, yeah, Mike, check it out. It’s wild that your, your tree died. He 

[01:01:03] OG: goes weird.

[01:01:03] OG: Your tree’s dead. 

[01:01:04] Doug: Yeah. And he goes, what’d you do about it? Did you call, did you call anybody? You get getting it taken care of. Like, why hell would I do that? Your tree, well you saw it should have done something about it. Then he just got hot. Whatcha talking about? So yes, that’s uh, that’s uh, my experience with one of my neighbors.

[01:01:24] Doug: What is your experience with your neighbor? It would be different, 

[01:01:27] OG: you know, I mean, like, it’d be different to say like if you’re in good terms. ’cause actually we had some issues with our neighbor, not issues in sense of like, we don’t like each other, but issues more like, Hey, I noticed in this last storm this thing happened to your fence.

[01:01:40] OG: Are you home? Do you need me to like go over there and like, 

[01:01:44] Doug: oh that’s nice. Zip 

[01:01:44] OG: tie it to like, you know, so it doesn’t get worse or whatever, you know, type deal. Yeah. Anyways, he just texted me this morning, are you at home? And usually that means that he can see something on my side of the house that I don’t usually walk on.

[01:01:56] OG: And there’s something ed up like your bare butt. No, I don’t tend to. Moon, my neighbor, unless he pays extra. But it’s more like stuff like, you know, 

[01:02:08] Joe: he can subscribe to the channel like everybody else. Yes, exactly. 

[01:02:12] OG: No freebies in my world, it’s usually something like, Hey, there’s a leak, I can see a leak. You know, there’s weird stuff coming out of your attic or something, you know?

[01:02:22] OG: And that’s helpful, right? Like, oh, you’re missing a shingle. You know? I can see it from my, my side of the fence, basically. And so I just said, yeah, I’m at home. What did I screw up this time? Except for maybe my wife leaving Mexican food outside. So the animals got into it last night. Ha ha ha ha. And then he texts back, are you at home?

[01:02:43] OG: And now, immediately I know that his phone has been compromised. 

[01:02:46] Joe: Oh no. And so 

[01:02:47] OG: I just wrote, are you at home? I think I’m gonna keep doing this back and forth. 

[01:02:52] Joe: Yeah. 

[01:02:52] OG: Until somebody gets a picture of somebody’s nipple. I’m not sure. 

[01:02:59] Doug: That’s always a game changer. That’s when the conversation turns big 

[01:03:02] OG: old hairy nipple.

[01:03:03] OG: And, and I’m gonna use, not mine or, or his, I’m using Doug’s nipple obviously. ’cause it’s public and it’s in the domain. I was gonna say, you have 

[01:03:10] Doug: dozens of pictures of that. 

[01:03:12] Joe: I got a similar text from a friend of the show who was just on recently. Andy Hill gonna be back on in January, by the way. Talking about owning your time.

[01:03:20] Joe: Nicest guy in podcasting. Yeah, totally nicest guy. Andy writes to me and says, Hey, I have a new, uh, WhatsApp group that I’d like you to join and we’re gonna talk personal finance and all kinds of stuff. And I just wrote back to him and I go, I go, dude, I’m not on, I’m not on WhatsApp. I’d love to help. Hope you’re doing well.

[01:03:40] Joe: And then he writes back and goes, well, it’s a, it’s a brand new group. Here’s the URL. And I went. Oh God. And I literally wrote, oh no. And I wrote, I nearly fell for it. Nice job. Spoofing the nicest man in podcasting. 

[01:03:58] OG: He’s like, no, no, seriously, I’m starting a new WhatsApp group. 

[01:04:01] Doug: Well, what’s wild? I mean, that, that took some social engineering wasn’t just a bot who spoofed a phone number, which is more than likely what happened in OGs case.

[01:04:10] Doug: They actually know that Andy’s in personal finance and podcasting and scripted something along those lines. 

[01:04:17] Joe: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:04:18] Doug: Unbelievable. 

[01:04:19] Joe: No, it was, it was, they’re working too hard. It was a really, really good one. And I almost fell for it. And I went, oh. And then I said, uh, hope you don’t get away with this. And I’m telling Andy right now, I’m telling, I tell mom, I’m 

[01:04:33] Doug: telling, I’m telling mom, you know, I saw a commercial, uh, watching football a couple of weekends ago for Cash App.

[01:04:40] Doug: I thought if I ever get a request for WhatsApp or Cash App, I immediately think you’re a scammer. Like there’s no way I’m ever using either one of those two. I don’t use 

[01:04:49] OG: WhatsApp, but I’ve, I’ve used every payment system there is. And it’s because other people use them different. You know, you’re like, whatever.

[01:04:56] OG: It’s super easy to set up, which is what their goal is. One time my kid asked me, he’s like, he’s like, Hey, can you send me, you know, whatever 20 bucks on Cash app? ’cause I gotta, how they do the ticket to the thing or whatever. And I was like, I’m not sure I have that. And I opened it up, I had like 30 bucks in the Cash App app because somebody had paid that way sometime ago.

[01:05:16] OG: And I’m like. I was thinking about that in the context of like estate planning, right? Like how are you going to be able to keep track of all of your digital payment locations in addition to Yeah, normal bank accounts and all that. Do you think it’s tough finding like a stock certificate from, you know, 1987 in grandpa’s drawer, who’s got the sell password?

[01:05:36] OG: Wait until, wait until you need the, the face ID to unlock Cash app in 2028 or 2038 or something? 

[01:05:43] Joe: Is that the 2025 equivalent of finding 10 bucks in your jeans? Is this the new one? Absolutely. I opened up Cash App and there’s 30 bucks there. 

[01:05:50] OG: I don’t use any of those things ever. I never use PayPal, Venmo Cash app.

[01:05:54] OG: I don’t, I mean, I have them because, you know, people will send money and that’s just a convenient thing, right? I, I hate using Zelle because I don’t like anything attached to my bank account if I can avoid it. We have this golf trip that we go on every year with a bunch of firm owners and you know, we get a little.

[01:06:10] OG: Frisky with our betting and different things. You know, there’s a couple pops and people will bet. And the easiest way to do it is via Venmo. And like literally that’s the only time I use it religiously is through that week. You know, we’re like, here’s your $10, here’s my $10, here’s your $10, here’s my $10, we’re just ven mowing back and forth.

[01:06:29] OG: And then a year goes by and I open up Venmo to see like how I’m gonna pay my bets off. And I’m like, oh crap, I got 500 bucks in here from last year. That’s awesome.

[01:06:38] OG: It’s very cool.