On today’s special best of 2023 episode, we revisit an exclusive interview that Joe had with superstar runner Kara Goucher who shared her experience of abuse while on the elite Nike running team.
This episode originally aired on March 15, 2023, so please ignore any mention of current events.
For the original show notes, visit Kara Goucher on Abuse, Money, and the Elite Nike Running Team
Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201
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Join Us Wednesday
Tune in Wednesday as we keep our Best of 2023 episode when we revisit Joe’s conversation with Dr. Julia DiGangi and the topic of mastering emotions and maximizing energy in financial decisions.
Written by: Kevin Bailey
Miss our last show? Listen here: Top 5 Plays To Win The Money Championship Game (Best of 2023 SB1453)
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Holiday wines and beers are also on sale. Starting at 7 99 host the perfect holiday party with Whole Foods Market. Must be 21 plus, please drink responsibly. Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe Saul-Sehy, co-host of today’s show. And I’ll explain the microphone quality here in a minute. But I wanted to jump in before we press play on this wonderful episode because I have two things for you.
First, no profanity In today’s show, we bleep out a minor word, so maybe there’s some minor profanity, but I wouldn’t be, uh, coming in here at the beginning if we didn’t have something incredibly disturbing at the beginning of today’s interview. So I would avoid having young children listen to our featured interview today with Olympian and Elite running star now NBC Sports Analyst, Kara Goucher.
So I would avoid young ears in the room. At least until you hear it. Second, I also need to pull back the curtain on how we constructed today’s episode because if I don’t, we’re gonna seem pretty tone deaf when you hear that explosive part of today’s story. So the topic of running a money interests me and clearly I saw that Kara had written a book talking about some problems at a Nike’s elite running team, and I thought this would be a great way to meld this, uh, greedy side of money.
I. And the topic of money and running, uh, two topics that I love. So I reached out to co-author Mary Palon, who’s been on the show a couple times to see if maybe Kara would come on. I was super excited when she referred me to Simon and Schuster, their publisher. I. But the publisher, because of the explosive part of this interview, which I did not know was coming, did not allow Kara to be available until Monday.
It is now Tuesday night as I’m recording this, you’re listening maybe on Wednesday morning. That’s a very quick turnaround for a show like ours. So because of our travel schedules, I’m now in a hotel room in Indianapolis getting ready for an appearance as you’re listening to this show on the Bob and Tom syndicated radio show.
And OG is out with family in Colorado. So we recorded the rest of the episode ahead of time because we thought we knew what was coming, and clearly we did not. And once I heard the whole episode, uh, together as we exit the interview with Kara, uh, we seem a little tone deaf. And that frankly is because we’d already recorded it and we had no idea.
Uh, of the elephant in the room piece of this interview. It’s a, it’s a wonderful interview. Kara Goucher was such a great guest. It’s a, it’s a great episode, um, but a horrible story. So let’s just get on with it. Here’s today’s Stacking Benjamins.
Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show.
I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Duggan, who knew running could be such a dirty business. Today with a look at life inside of Nike’s elite row running team, we welcome Long Distance, star and Co-author of the new bestseller, the Longest Race. Kara Goucher, in our headline segment, the job market is cooling. What should your strategy be?
We have Ideas, and later we’ll throw out The Haven Lifeline to a lucky listener. And of course, I’ll be sure to share some Delectable trivia. And that word makes me uncomfortable. And now two guys who are helping you go the distance, Joe and oh Ginger.
Hey there, stackers. Welcome to Wednesday, a Delectable Wednesday. Doug. It probably is. Why wouldn’t it be a delectable Wednesday? We have a delectable show. So awkward for you to, I’m gonna say delectable a lot. Now I am Joe Sci. I average money on Twitter and man, do we have an action packed Wednesday for you, but first you heard the crooning of Mr.
Doug, mom’s Neighbor Doug. But you haven’t heard yet the man across the card table from me bringing it at the midweek. It’s Mr. og. How are you my friend? What’s good? Well, I’ll tell you what’s good. Kara Goucher coming down to the basement today. That’s good long distance. Sensation is a guy that, uh, about a hundred pounds ago, I was a distance runner myself, so I followed, is that a unit of time?
Uh, I, uh, I followed her career and I’m, I’m very excited to talk to her. Obviously we’re gonna talk to her about some disturbing stuff going on inside of Nike. You know, money does strange things to people, as we’ve heard many times. Tell Mom said that. Oh, well Kara Cher’s gonna tell all in just a minute.
But you know what, OG before that, I think it’s time that you and I had a serious talk again. Sorry. Yes. Sit down and listen to this. Well, if you know me, you know how excited I am about Aura Frames. You know, they set me a couple of them, which is kind of funny because we already have a subscription for my mother-in-Law, where whenever Cheryl and I go around, did I tell you I went to Bavaria?
I tell you, I went to Bali. We, we go to these different places. I’ve been very lucky. I’ve gone a lot of places. But you know what? I feel like we can take, uh, my mother-in-Law along with us because we send it right to her. And in fact, the one that I just got, that one, don’t tell anybody. That one’s going to mom so that she gets to travel with us as well.
And what’s cool is you can take your app, you just have an app on your phone, take pictures, and you can give that code to everybody in the family. So everybody can either use the app, use the code, just send pictures directly to that. So it’s not just us. Grandma’s got all the grandkids and she knows everything that’s going on.
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Well stackers national security experts are warning our aging power grid is more vulnerable than ever. January Mark the third time a power station in North Carolina was damaged by gunfire. Recently, authorities are saying the attack quote raises a new level of threat. Authorities are now checking our grid for vulnerabilities.
They’ve identified nine key substations if those are attacked, power could be knocked out from coast to coast for up to 18 months. Imagine a blackout. The last, not days, but weeks or months, everything’s frozen in time, just like here in mom’s basement. The moment the power fails lights all over the country, we go out throwing people into total darkness, and that’s why having your own solar power more important than ever with four patriots, Patriot power generator, you get a solar generator that doesn’t install into your house because it’s portable, take it with, you can even use it inside, but it’s powerful enough for your phones, your medical devices, or even your fridge.
Right now, you can go to four patriots.com and use Code SSB to get 10% off your first purchase on anything in the store, including the Patriot Power Generator from four Patriots. It’s the number four Patriots. You’ll also get their famous guarantee for an entire year after your order. Plus free shipping on orders over $97 and a portion of every sales donated to charities who support our veterans and their families.
Just go to four patriots.com, use code sb and you’re gonna get 10% off. That’s the number four. patriots.com. Use code SB to get yours today. Do you know better now? I’m all squared away. Thank you. Well, there we go. ’cause we got some headlines to do. So let’s move. Hello Darlings. And now it’s time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamins headlines.
Wow, you really took him out behind the wood. She didn’t you? Oh yeah. Made him pick his own switch. Oh yeah. And there we got the eye roll from og. Perfect. I learned. I learned my lesson. He, he said very convincingly. Yeah. Today’s headline comes to us from the Wall Street Journal. It is written by John Raath, who is going to be on the show, uh, fairly soon, talking about economics.
John writes, long robust US labor market shows signs of cooling. Oh gee, we saw it in the tech sector last year. The rest of the economy looked pretty good. Life looked great. Your chance of losing your job at jobs outside the tech sector didn’t look bad. Well, we, we, we might have some problems here. Uh, John Wright’s demand for US workers show signs of slowing a long anticipated development that’s showing up in private sector job postings, even while official government reports indicate the labor market keeps running hot.
ZipRecruiter and recruit holdings to large online recruiting companies. Say their data shows the number of job postings is declining more than labor department reports of job openings. Investors recently hammered shares of those companies after disappointing earnings results. So do you think that because their earnings were down, they’re like, Hey, people need a job way more than the, than the government says you need a job.
I don’t think there’s any conspiracy, any truth to that. Do you con conspiracy theories? I, I’m sorry. I’m a little distracted by Doug’s very much like mad scientist hair that he’s got going on right now. I just like, it’s like, did you touch a light bulb or a light? Did you put your finger in a light socket?
Doug, you’re Doug, you’re on mute again. I just all, I’ve been just been laughing. ’cause out of embarrassment, I don’t, I, I can’t do anything else. This is all of the hair that there is. This is, this is like, and this is when you go to the science center and you put your hands on the thing and like all the electricity’s around your hair stands up.
I’ll get a hat. I think this is just how disturbing this is how disturbing Doug finds this, uh, job report. Yeah. Great. Save
Nobody saw through that was throw level man. Nobody saw through that one at all. Yeah. Bring it back. Yeah. So are things getting tighter? You would think Right? The economy’s, uh, a little different. The, uh, profitability, all that sort of stuff, it’s gonna trickle down to, to the employment level I would imagine.
Absolutely. And you know, I think that’s a great point, OJI, that whether ZipRecruiter is onto something or not, certainly making yourself more marketable, this is just a great reminder for our stackers, right? Mm-Hmm. Just, just continually work on making yourself. Look attractive because you never know. How many times have we over the last decade heard people say to us, and now he has a hat?
I was gonna say, make ourselves look attractive. And Doug shows up with a hat on. He just goes and grabs, grabs a hat, but make yourself look more attractive because how many times over the past decade have people come on this show and say, I was surprised. All of a sudden somebody’s like, Hey, can you come down to my office?
And you go into your boss’s office and there’s somebody from HR sitting in their office or on the compensation side. Lots of studies have shown that once you get ingrained into a, you know, an organization, you kind of end up on the trajectory of, you get your regular, regular air quotes, cost of living, pay raises.
Meanwhile, they’re hiring people five, eight, 10%, uh, higher than you’re at just because that’s the market. But you’re not on the current market train. So you always gotta be kind of looking around to see what’s, uh, whether or not you’re. Being competitive. If you’re being competitive in your skills, if you need to up those or if your employer’s being competitive, you know, in the compensation and benefits and all that sort of stuff.
I found another piece on that note from indeed.com. This is, uh, written by the Indeed editorial team. Six Ways to Find Your Next Job. And I think that this idea of sharpening the saw that you’re onto OG is a, is a great thing for us to discuss no matter what the conditions are right now. Number one, ask your network for referrals.
I’m old enough to know, number one thing, dust off that resume. I’ll give you a little, a little thing here. Dust off your resume doesn’t make the top six. Yeah, it isn’t even nobody. Resume is dead. Resume is gone. Network and referrals. I know somebody. Yeah. You know, you just have that conversation and you wanna be that connector then never eat a loan book.
Right. It’s all about, I. Just being that connector. Joe Polish, who’s got a big following, his whole thing is I wanna be the person that everybody knows that can find the person that you need. Yeah. I mean, if you’re somebody that’s connecting other people, you’re gonna be the first person people call for anything, which is a great spot to be in because then they perceive that they owe you a favor.
And now when you need something great to go back. So if your, if your network isn’t dusted off, if your LinkedIn profile is, uh, you haven’t looked at it in a while, you haven’t built up some of these connections on the business front, probably a great place to start. Number two, contact companies directly.
How about this one? Look at the companies that you wanna work for. Places you want to go and just say, Hey, I, I would love to, I would love to work for you. If a company you’re interested in this piece says doesn’t have any relevant jobs posted on their website, reach out to them via email or phone to see if they’re looking to employ someone with your qualifications and experience.
If a company’s not actively recruiting for your role, they may keep you on file in case a position becomes available in the future. I don’t know anybody who’s done this, but it seems to me to be a great idea. I don’t know, the cold calling works Doug. Doug looks like he’s got an opinion about this, but Doug did it for this job.
Doug, did you do it for this job? I did. Doug Cold called us. Cold called us. But I think the, um, combination of those first two probably makes the most sense, right? Network into the job or into the company that you want. So you’re on LinkedIn and you go, I wanna work with, you know, I wanna work at Pepsi, but I don’t have an in at Pepsi.
Find somebody that does that, you know, and then, you know, kind of work that angle. Doug, you know somebody that did this or did you actually do this? Well, I tried it, I tried it once. There was a, there was a job opening that I thought was a little beneath me, and so I, but I applied for it and, uh, had a phone interview and talked about that, but said, you know, I’m really interested in this other role that I see that you have posted.
And the guy’s like, yeah, we kind of already have somebody in mind for that, but you know, let’s talk to you about this role. Anyway, so I kept talking about that role and they bring me in for an interview, and the first words out of my mouth when I sat down at the guy’s desk was, so let’s talk about that director role.
And the guy’s like, look, I told you once before we’re done. Wow. And he kicked me out of his office. That was it. That was the end of it. The 32nd interview. I’m like, I’m going for it, because they said, everybody says. And cut. And we’re done. Yeah. Good day sir. Did you say that? And okay, let’s go back to the beginning of this.
Do you guys validate? Guys? Validate. Why are you wearing a tuxedo? I got my Yeti cup here with a lid. Do you guys have a coffee? Can I grab a coffee on the way out? Number three, use job search platforms weird that indeed.com would say to use job search platforms. Weird. Wow. But very seriously. I think that, uh, whether it is indeed LinkedIn, ZipRecruiter, whatever it is, job search platforms are kinda like the dating apps right now.
I mean, it seems like that’s the place all companies go. Like how do you find, how do you find your employee? You don’t go to the newspaper anymore. Sadly, newspaper people love the newspaper. But who does that breaking news? Newsprint is dead sometimes in our neighborhood. They will drop off free newspapers and you have to call to cancel it.
Yeah. You’re like, please, please stop. Please stop sending me. They’re like, it’s free. We’re like, I’m like, no, it’s not. It’s, it’s a, a pile of trash in the front of my house that I have to remember every so often to go clean. Like, please stop sending, I love the free newspaper because I have a solo stove.
I’ll save ’em all for you and I’ll bring ’em to you. Perfect. I got a use for ’em. I’ll collect all my neighbors too. We record for Friday. Bring those over please. Number four, go to job fairs. That’s two things, og I think that’s a networking opportunity and you’re gonna meet people. Doug looks dubious on that one, but I do like the networking aspect being, and, and they talk about this in the piece.
Being face-to-face, eye to eye with somebody ahead of time might be a deeper connection than just going to indeed.com. Yeah. I don’t know that there’s a lot of job fairs post covid, but maybe. Number five, leverage. Oh, this piece was written in 1887. Sorry. Now this is, this is, this is a new piece. And then, uh, number five, leverage social media.
I think we talked about LinkedIn. Number six, inquire at staffing agencies. We’ll link to these in our show notes page at stacky Benjamins dot com. And I think we’ll also dive deeper in the newsletter, the 2 0 1, which is always free. You can unsubscribe whenever you want to, but it’s the place where we dive deeper into whatever we talk about on the podcast.
Coming up next, when you think about professional sports, you think about money, but generally OG you’re thinking about baseball, football, hockey, NBA, tennis, golf. I could think of a lot of things I think of before I think of professional running. Like if I asked you to talk about dirty stuff happening in professional sports and in the name of money, where would professional running sit on your list?
When would you finally get to it? I, I don’t know that I would, uh, think of running right behind curling. I think it’d be a little ahead of curl. No offense to you. Curlers. I love me some curling, but for me it’s way ahead of time. Well, this is a woman coming up next whose career I followed for a long time.
Kara Goucher, three time NCAA champion. Two two-time Olympian winner of the silver medal of the 2007 World Championships in the 10,000 meteor in the 10,000 meters. Wow. She’s fast. She’s outta this world and, and a podium finisher at the Boston and the New York Marathon. She’s a running analyst for NBC Sports.
She coasts the Hit Running Commentary podcast. Nobody asked us. Of course referring to another Olympian Des Linden, who by the way, Doug, uh, you see out running in your neck of the woods. Yeah, in my neck of the woods. Literally, she, she doesn’t live too far and we have great training grounds, lots of hills around here and she out doing some training at my house.
You, my house. You know, for me, those are the worst training grounds. I like it. Really, really flat. Always downhill. And always downhill. Yes. Just a slight grade downhill. But Kara might think differently about that. We’re gonna talk to her in just a moment, but Doug as a way to get there. I think we have some trivia first, right?
Sure do. Joe. Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor Doug, and I prefer speed walking to running. But that, that’s just me. Not everyone’s blessed with these swooshing hips I’ve got. Speaking of opting out, today’s question is in November, 2019, the entire company of Nike opted out of selling products directly through what platform.
I’ll be back right after I hit the mall and break in these new walk-in shoes. They’re so shiny and white haystack, there’s a lot of people upset about mint shutting down, and I get it. Uh, you spend time linking all your accounts, creating different budgets, but rocket money is one I can recommend. They make it easy to get set up.
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Hey there stackers. I’m Nehi socks and short shorts wearing Joe’s Mom’s neighbor Doug Wanna know what Platform all of Nike joint forces to stop selling their products on. It was Amazon and now it’s time to Lace Up for the Longest Race with Kara Goucher. Let’s just do it, and I’m super happy she’s coming down to mom’s basement to talk about her career and so much more.
Kara Goucher’s here. How are you? I’m good, I’m good. I’m nervous. Obviously this is launch week, but I’m also ready. For this to happen. I thought you’re nervous ’cause you’re being interviewed in somebody’s mom’s basement for a podcast. I mean, that’s part of it. It’s a little weird. What the hell am I doing here?
Mostly it’s good. Yeah. Where’s my agent when I need them? Kara, let’s just get right to it. A 2022 piece from the New York Times written by Kevin Draper, Matthew Futterman details why famed Nike Oregon Project Distance coach Alberto Salazar went from ban for four years for doping violations to ban permanently.
And the piece reads that the United States Center for SafeSport and Organization that investigates reports of abuse among Olympic sports ruled that Salazar had committed four violations, including two instances of penetrating a runner with a finger while giving an athletic massage the name appropriately, uh, by the New York Times not mentioned.
However, there’s all these identifying characteristics and I’m sure Kara, there were so many people probably at the time going. There’s only a small number of people it could have been, but I believe for the first time here you are identifying publicly that at least one of those times was you. Yeah. Yep.
And when that article was being written, it was one of the worst experiences of my life, if I’m being honest, because they wanted me to comment and I, they legally couldn’t run my name until I had commented, and I was not ready to do that. It was interesting when the article ran, I thought that a lot of people would just connect the dots, but what I got were a lot of texts and emails from people in my life saying, wow, I, that’s so sad.
I hope whoever that was is at peace. So it didn’t, you know, I was worried that people were gonna connect the dots and just call, like, just point blank, ask me. And that’s not what happened, which I’m grateful for. Did you say anything to Alberto Salazar at the time when that happened? No, I said nothing. I was stunned and honestly, I convinced myself it was a mistake.
I don’t, in so many instances like this, you always hear that where the person who has this happened to them goes, oh, it must have been a mistake. It must have been. But clearly now that you’ve been able to put the dots together from a lot of different people, this was clearly not a mistake. Yeah. And, and understanding that, and coming to terms with that took a long time because it’s one thing to have a really kind of icky situation with your coach, but he’s the great guy and he’s a dad, and you kind of put it aside as like, he’s just a terrible massage therapist and I don’t wanna, I felt bad, I felt bad that I thought maybe he had done something like that to me on purpose.
And so for so many years it sat in that box and that way it couldn’t hurt me. It was like, oh, well it was just an accident, an unfortunate accident. But, but obviously as I’ve. Gone through therapy and talked with people, I look at it differently of course, and that was really hard for me to, to reckon with.
Well, and it put a pit in my stomach, Kara, when I was reading it, just you blaming yourself and even later, uh, an email that you wrote or a letter that you wrote to Alberto talking about how he was such, in a lot of ways, such a father figure and that he’d helped you so much and clearly in a lot of ways he had, there were some things that he, that he had done that were fantastic for your career and it just, even, even reading that.
But what I’d like to do is, is I’d like to go back to the beginning because as I read your book, obviously this, this is a money show. Money is entwined in everything here, but your love of running did not start at all with with money. Let’s go back actually, even before running to your parents, you have the most unlikely pairing of parents between your mom’s family and your dad’s family, but somehow they make it work next to a soccer field is where they meet.
So sports looms large in your family, but you’re living on the east coast. Your family’s headed to Duluth. For a family, a visit or a family reunion, your dad has to stay behind to take care of some business. And when you get to Duluth, your mom gets a call and I think how you’re maybe, what, three years old at this time.
Yeah, I was a week away from my fourth birthday. Yeah. Do you remember the call at all? You know, I don’t, I can picture it, but only because I’ve been told this story so many times and because I grew up in my grandparents’ house. I mean, we had our own house, but I was there so often that I can picture everything, but I don’t remember, um, there’s a lot that I don’t remember about that time.
I, I just, you know, I was probably just too young to really remember. And, you know, it’s interesting because I always felt like, oh, it didn’t affect me that my dad died. I don’t even remember. Um, but obviously now that I’m older, I’m like, oh no. That really affected me. And it really left me open to like seeking that.
Father figure throughout my whole life. But also when my son turned four, I remember thinking, if I were to die right now, he would, I have left an imprint on him. And in a weird way that was healing because I, I realized that my dad has affected me and who I became. That your dad was killed in a car accident.
How did, how did the accident happen? Um, he was driving to work and there was someone who had, was drunk and high. He actually jumped the mid, I don’t even know what you call it, like median or the, yeah, the median. And went airborne and landed on top of my dad’s car and he was killed instantly. And it was horrible.
It was horrible. My mom had me, my sister who was a couple weeks from being six, and then my little sister who was only six weeks old. It just completely changed the trajectory of her life and of our lives and what, you know, growing up looked like. I just can’t, just can’t imagine your, your papa, which is what you called your grandfather, always said to you, if you see something wrong, make a plan and make it better.
If you don’t like it, fix it. I love that. So I’m guessing he must have told that to your mom because your mom immediately decides she can’t do anything about your dad being dead, but she can try to set up a Mother’s against truck drivers in the area. So she goes to work on this. Was she successful? Oh yeah.
She got the MAD chapter done in for Duluth, Minnesota. And she was a big part of mad for many, many years of most of my childhood. Driving down to the Twin Cities a lot to host events. She was one of the main people that got victim impact panels. So if you get a DUI, you have to go in front of victims of drunk drivers and hear their stories.
And she has worked so hard at that her whole life. She still does victim impact panels. And you know, she modeled for me early on and so did my grandpa about like, not, don’t complain, do something about it. And I really feel like I am my grandfather’s granddaughter. I mean, through and through. Like he really had a huge impact on me of you have power if you choose to do the right thing.
And so he obviously had that influence on my mom as well. Well, that resonates throughout the book, like your grandfather’s imprint. Kara is all the way through this project, so he became your first running coach. But let’s talk about that. When did you start running and why did you start running? You know, my grandpa was a lifelong runner.
He didn’t race, he just liked to run. That is a sickness. Oh my gosh. How much we bonded over our love of running. But he took me to my first race when I was six. It was like a mile run. And he loved to tell the story. Oh my God. The people at his retirement community would literally roll their eyes. ’cause he would always tell the story.
But he brought me and I fell at the start and he worried that, oh my gosh. ’cause I was kind of like a little wissy. And he thought, oh great, you know, she’s gonna cry. And instead I jumped up and was like, they’re getting away from us. And he loved it because he realized I had this competitive spirit that he hadn’t seen before and I just wanted to be like him.
So he was a runner and I wanted to be a runner, but I didn’t realize there was organized running teams at that time in my life. It was just something I did. Maybe I’d be out at the cabin and run with him a little bit, or there’d be some kids race and he or my mom would enter me. And it wasn’t until middle school that I realized you could actually like.
Do this as a sport. Well, and I loved, in middle school, you wrote that you had to run against Scott, who at that time Kara was the love of your flipping life. Like this guy was, was whatever happened to Scott, by the way? How come Scott’s, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. So I’m at Nike as a Nike athlete, and one day I’m like, I swear, I just saw my childhood.
Like absolute obsession. And then it turned out that he was interning and then he got a job at Nike. And then we ended up being Was Adam jealous? Was Adam jealous? He wasn’t. He should have been, but he wasn’t. Yeah, right. You’re such great crush. It’s back. But yeah, no, he’s such a great guy. And then even the, the last few years I lived in Oregon, we would go on runs together.
Like he ran Boston in 2011 when I ran Boston in 2001. Wow. So it’s just the world is wild. Life is wild. But you had fun then. You had fun in middle school. You got promoted, you said because the school budget cuts, you got promoted to the high school team and immediately. You’re seeing success as a runner and it seems like your freshman and sophomore year you’re having a lot of fun, but that changes your junior and senior year because you start to put pressure on yourself.
My daughter, by the way, Kara ran for the University of Arkansas, but her, her senior year, she put so much pressure on herself. What would you say to these high school athletes listening to this that do, you know, it becomes so much less. I remember for my daughter, sometimes her senior year of high school became so much less about fun and what she’d loved before and almost a, a sickness because of how competitive we are.
Yeah, it’s a slippery slope, right? Because you wanna be as competitive as you can be, and you’re dedicating so much time and effort to it, but then it can spiral out of control where you lo like you lose the love of the journey because you’re so worried about the destination. You’re so worried about The results.
Seem like you’re having no fun your senior year in high school. No, and then, you know, that happened to me multiple times throughout my career. I, I just really had to fo like, if I hadn’t had such incredible teammates, we wouldn’t be talking right now because I just would’ve been like, this isn’t fun. I hate it.
I’m not as good as I used to be. I’m letting everyone down. Every race is a disappointment. And I didn’t have the skillset to say like, Hey, your body’s changing, or, Hey, you don’t have to pr every time you step out there. I just didn’t have that. So instead it just felt like a massive failure. I mean, I literally hated it at that time in my life.
Well, and I was wondering then why, why then are you gonna pursue running in college? I think because every time I thought about quitting, I had, and this is throughout my whole career, I had this little voice that would feel like, you’re gonna regret it. You’re gonna regret it. You’re not there yet. And so it totally changed the way I looked at colleges.
I wanted to, like, before that, I had been to a national high school meet and I thought maybe someday I could be a national champion. And then after my senior year, my junior year into my senior year, I was like, I’m never gonna be a national champion, but maybe I could go and and become a national champion by helping a team, like maybe I could help a cross country team win a national title.
All of the schools that I had wanted to go to weren’t talking to me anyway. And so I totally switched focus. And that’s how I ended up at Colorado. I had seen them take second at the National Cross Country Championship, and they were kind of a ragtag team. Like they didn’t have any superstars. And I thought, well, maybe I could help them push them over the edge from second to first.
And we did. We did get it done. My last year. We got it done. We were national champions. It was so interesting the way you got into college because you had to, you had to go get it. Nobody was chasing you. No. I literally left messages on answering machines, which also dates me, but that’s what I did. I would call at night where I knew no one could hang up on me and I would leave a message.
So this is the only place where, where your amazing running career and Joe’s little running career, uh, intersect Kara. Okay. And that is. One of the, I, I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff during my life, but one very important thing I did, I thought I had a, a college scholarship to the University of Nevada. And on the national signing day, my letter never showed up.
So my mom worked at talk about dating you. My mom worked at a, at a church, uh, rectory and they had a mimeograph machine. There’s the dating right there where were the, you know, with the little blue ink and they’d roll that roller. And so I hadn’t applied anywhere else, so I had to go to the Peterson’s Guide to Colleges, and the printer was not hooked up, right?
So I had to just write down every school in the nation that gave away scholarships. My mom cranked out a bunch of letters. I had to pay for the paper, then I had to pay for the postage. I ran out of postage, by the way, after A through E and then backwards through University of, so I wasn’t going to Florida or Georgia ’cause, ’cause they never got a letter from me.
But I, I sent all these letters out and to your credit and to my credit, I was surprised how many people called back. Yeah, I was surprised the fact that you took, you took control and because of that you ended up with the great scholarship. Yeah, I mean, I had a little scholarship, maybe an okay scholarship, but still it was, it was a reason to go.
Right. And it was a reason to keep pursuing this sport and I realized I didn’t wanna be done. And maybe it wasn’t gonna look like what I had dreamt it would look like, but I could still go and still be an athlete and still running college. And, yeah, I mean, the answering machine worked. I mean, most people called me back and I ended up going to Colorado, so it worked out.
That’s fabulous. You, you really liked your coach at Colorado? Yes. And, and, and I really felt like your coach helped you turn it around and turn your really, give you self-confidence. How did that happen? Mark believed in me. Mark Wetmore believed in me before I believed in me. I came in my freshman year. I was like literally like a washed up high school star, and he just looked at me and was like, we’re gonna take this year by year.
And I bought in. I bought in that the improvement would be small but steady and I trusted him and everything that he thought I could achieve, I ended up achieving. And I needed someone like that. I needed someone who believed in me, but who wasn’t selling me crap. Like, oh, I’m gonna turn you around, you’re gonna run amazing this year.
You know, it was like, no, this is gonna take time. And I’m so grateful to him. And then I actually got to finish out my career with him as my coach as well, which I’m very grateful for. To see him come back I thought was really cool. At the end of your career in college, things don’t go as well as you want.
You were hoping for an agent. You were hoping for offers from shoe companies, your. Uh, a fiance or husband by the time you guys graduated husband by then, right? We got married that summer or that fall. Got married this, that fall. Yeah. So Adam is, is making $90,000 with Fila, was it? With Fila? Mm-Hmm. And then you get an offer from, from Nike.
Tell me about getting that, that, was that a letter? Was that a phone call? How did that happen? That’s a great question. I think I sat with Mark Wetmore and Adam when we wrote up a contract that we thought was fair and then we, I probably faxed it to a few different companies and John Caprioti of Nike said, I’ll do this deal.
And that was that. I was a Nike athlete. It really was. It was a little bit like high school all over again where. I was really struggling mentally. My running was suffering. I felt so much pressure and I really had a horrible senior year, senior track season anyway. And you know, I nobody, no one wanted to be my agent.
No one was coming after me. And yeah, Adam and Mark and I wrote up a contract, mostly Mark did that he thought was fair and we just shopped it. And one company said yes. And that’s how I became a Nike athlete. You said $35,000 felt like the world to you, but as a finance guy, Kara, I’m like, how is she budgeting?
Were you working other jobs while you’re, no, but remember this was 2001, right? And my then husband owned a property, so I was, you know, I was kind of mooching off him, if I’m being honest. Like he was successful. He had signed for $90,000, but he had done so well his first year that he was making a lot more than that in rollover bonuses.
And so being married to him allowed me to just be a full-time athlete, which was ridiculous ’cause I was injured and running terribly anyway. But yeah, no, I didn’t have to get another job. Well, and while you are injured, you decide that maybe you need to change a scenery or looking at going to Wisconsin.
Beautiful there. I can’t imagine running through those hills. Of course you were in Colorado, so those hills are nothing to you. Right? But then you get a call from Nike to be a part of this program. And I just have to imagine, Kara, that just the offer of running for a Alberto Salazar had to be just a thrill.
’cause everybody, you know, I mean, when I was growing up, that name was just gold. Well, this is kind of funny, and Alberto and I used to laugh about this. I didn’t know who he was. You had no idea. Um, I had no idea. At one point I was telling my family, no, he had every American record from the 1500 through the marathon, and he was like, no, I didn’t.
So this was actually a joke that we used to laugh about. I like Googled him and found out he was a really good marathoner. But no, I didn’t know who he was. Adam had heard of him, but I think it was just, we went on a visit to the Nike campus and we got to meet some of the other athletes on the Oregon project.
And it was like, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. I mean, like, everything’s gonna be taken care of. We’re gonna be, I’m gonna be talking to people, sports psychologists. That’s always been a struggle for me. We’re gonna be getting massage therapy, a RT therapy. We have all these modality, underwater treadmills, all these crazy things.
And if we say no, we’re crazy. I mean, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. He’s, he’s a little unorthodox though, Kara, when you get there. Alberto. Yeah. Yeah. For people just listening to the audio podcast, I just got the, they’re like, are you kidding me? Look. Yeah. Look, this is the thing that’s hard is that even with all the bad memories, there’s so many good memories.
And Alberto is Alberto, and if you know him, you know him. He’s very charismatic and he’s always trying something new. And he’s very, he’s, I don’t, I don’t wanna be mean, but he’s kind of weird, you know? And you know, we got there and he immediately brought up Mary Slaney. I hadn’t even realized that he coached Mary Slaney when she tested positive.
He brought that up right away. I remember Adam and I saying like, what a good guy to like meet us with that. We didn’t have to ask about that or find out about it later. But yeah, I mean we, he showed us all around and it just, again, it felt like if we don’t do this, then like how bad do we want it? This is an incredible opportunity.
One of the unorthodox things he does is he has massages that are right in the middle of a co-ed space with everybody. So you write that, uh, you know, the, the guys will get on the table, he’ll pull their shorts up, so their asses hanging out, I think is the term that you used. And then, uh, he tells you to get on the table and there’s no professionalism, there’s no blanket like a professional.
He yanks up your, your shorts and now your ass is hanging out in front of everybody. I can’t imagine what that felt like. Well, at first it felt like no one’s ever done that, first of all, in a massage setting. No one’s ever just taking my shorts and tucked them up super high so that my butt was exposed, you know?
But no one acted like it was weird, like everyone’s exposed, and then everyone else is just sitting around making sandwiches, hanging out, watching ESPN. So it just, again, at the time I remember Adam and I being like, that’s a little weird. But then within a few months it didn’t even. Cause a single hesitation because that was just Alberto and that’s what he does.
That’s how dedicated he is to his athletes, that he even gives them massage. Things are going really well in your career, so all of these things, you’re sleeping in the weirdest tent I’ve ever read about this high altitude tent. It’s super hot. Your sister, I think, was the one that told you that. It seemed a little bit like a cult, and I’m reading it.
It seems a little like a cult in a lot of ways. You’re kind of cut off Alberta’s telling you the quote truth and what you should say about stuff and really like looking back on it. Does it feel like a cult? Yes, definitely. And I’ve talked to other people who were in that environment of specifically the Oregon project.
And looking back, we feel like, yeah, we were isolated, we were told everyone was jealous of us. We didn’t have a single person that we could talk to on the outside. Everybody was, it was just this ball. And from what I’ve learned and what I’ve been told, it was, it was very similar to a cult, if not a cult boy.
It, it certainly Red, red like one to me. You, you run with a, with a younger guy who you said felt a lot like yous and Adams little brother guy named Galen Rupp. I’ve watched Galen run a ton on television. Tell me a little bit about Galen. Galen is very smart. He’s really funny. Um, he was there for me a lot.
Um, there were times where, especially leading into the oh eight Olympic trials, Adam was at, we were up in Park City training. Adam was at the Olympic Training Center with an injury. Alberta was home, and it’s just Galen and I and we got along great and he worked really hard and we were really close. And that was one of the things that was hard about leaving was I felt like I was leaving him behind.
But you also realized, Kara, at that time that the, the treatment that Galen’s getting while he’s in the NCAA is clearly not by the letter of the law, but maybe by the spirit of the law breaking all these NCAA rules. Oh, yeah. I mean. Looking back, I feel like that was a red flag that some, you know, like Alberto’s thoughts were that some rules were just stupid and the NCAA rule was just stupid.
And there’s other rules later on that he thought were just stupid. Like it doesn’t even matter. Um, and looking back, that was sort of like a little test of our ethical standards and what we thought. I love Galen. At the time I thought he worked really hard. He was not a collegiate athlete. He was up in Park City with us.
He was in an altitude 10. He was getting the latest and greatest equipment, right? So clearly rules were being broken. Again, I’m not, I’m not proud, but I kind of just looked to the other way. And when the investigation went on and Alberto asked us to lie, essentially, if we were asked, I just was like, I, I can’t.
And fortunately we didn’t, we didn’t get asked by any investigators about it. And you were surprised that Moore wasn’t made of that at the time? I can’t believe that. Like you can’t even find a record of it. It was what it was. And again, I, I don’t put the blame on Galen as much as I do the people around him.
Um, but it was just sort of swept under the rug as if it, as if it hadn’t happened. Yeah. And for people that don’t know what Galen was doing, not only is he not on campus and Eugene being coached by the same people, he is being coached by this, this coach who’s training all pros except Galen. He’s down on Nike’s campus.
He’s not being paid, but he’s getting access to all of this stuff from a shoe company that other college athletes aren’t getting your career is going amazingly well. You all the things, when we introduced you in the open, we went through just all the huge things, Kara, that you did during your career and even reading about what was going on in your mind during some of those races was super exciting.
I’m there with you as you’re kicking into another gear that you didn’t even know that you had, which was so, so great. But. When it comes time for a new, a new contract, then you go from $35,000 to a heck of a lot more money. It was what, $325,000. That’s a massive pay raise they gave you. How did you feel about the, the pay raise?
And tell me about that. I felt proud, you know, I felt like I deserved, that I had was coming off of a medal at the World Championships. I knew that we were gonna renegotiate because there was interest from other companies and so my contract wasn’t up yet for negotiation, but they agreed to renegotiate early so that I wouldn’t leave or be tempted by another offer.
My agent at the time, Peter Subs, worked really hard to get that deal and the base was 3 25 and it had a lot of great bonuses in there as well, and I felt proud. I also felt a lot of pressure because now I’m getting paid as someone who’s expected to do well. So it definitely changed the way I looked at racing.
You know, before it was kind of like, I’m just. Crawl in the ranks and everything’s exciting. And after that it was like, okay, I have to deliver now because I’m being paid to deliver. Well, and in your book you talk a lot about the doping scandal and about all the stuff that goes on with doping. And I wanna quote you exactly what you write about doping.
You say, perhaps it is, it’s a bitter irony that in an endurance sport, those on the business side of things don’t seem to pay much mind to a runner’s long-term career. To have health and longevity in a running career, you need enough time to recover after races. But many runners have deals like the one I signed, forcing them to not only compete at a set minimum number of races a year, but stay on top of the results table or their risk being dropped.
These runners are being told you can’t dope. And what you’re saying here, Kara, is, uh, but if you don’t get caught, maybe you’ll keep getting paid. Like the risk reward is huge. Right. Well, when you’re being held to a standard of, you know, some people have, you have to be top three in the world or you know, I think mine was top two in the US or top 10 in the world.
Some peoples are even stricter. But now you’re saying that, you know, we know there’s people doping in the world. We know there’s people doping in the US So now you’re being held to a standard that might not even be realistic. Like you could have the race of your life and run a personal best and finish fifth at the Olympics, and now you’re gonna get, you face a reduction for that.
So what, it’s, it’s not blatantly saying dope, it’s just saying these are the standards we’re gonna hold you to, even though we know they’re not realistic. But that’s what you’re being held to, right? Yeah. Yeah. So figure that out, athlete. Yeah, exactly. Good luck. How, how are you gonna do that? Which doesn’t make sense to me.
’cause I think, I dunno, but I don’t run the company so I, I have no idea. I also don’t get the next part, which is, they also were very unforgiving when, when you became pregnant, you, you were suspended because you got pregnant. Yeah, look, Nike knew I was trying to get pregnant. They helped me pick the time.
It was an open conversation with my coach of what’s the right time to try to have a baby. There was a conversation between my coach and the head of sports marketing of what would happen to my contract, and Alberto came back to me and said, nothing’s gonna happen. You just need to say relevant. I couldn’t even say I was pregnant.
Nike orchestrated the announcement halfway through my pregnancy on Mother’s Day, on the front page of the sports section of the New York Times. So you can imagine my shock when I found out from my financial advisor that I wasn’t getting paid, because in my mind, I’m doing a million appearances. You are profiting, you’re marketing my pregnancy as women can do everything.
And yeah, it was a really disappointing time in my life and it made me realize that the brand that I love so much was not what I thought it was. Well, it made me think of El and Felix’s situation as well. And about, uh, all the problems that she had with Nike as well. Cara, I feel like, you know, when Allison was a Nike athlete, she’s saying all these positive image things and then you hear Allison talk today, and, and the reality was not the same.
Right. And that’s what’s tough because you’re still contracted with the brand. So it’s not like you can say, you know what, you guys don’t represent what I represent because now you are breaking the contract and now you are on the hook to break that contract, but it’s, you’re a contractor. So even if they’re spec, like they suspended me without pay, I couldn’t say, okay, well I’m gonna run an Adidas for a year until you guys start paying me again.
Like if you’re, if you’re a contractor and you have a job and the job isn’t working out, you can leave the job and go take another contracting job. But that’s not how it is with these contracts. So it, you’re really stuck. And that’s one thing I talk about in the book. ’cause I felt like I was lying when I would do interviews.
I, I mean, I went all the way to Mark Parker, who was the CEO and I said, I feel like I’m being forced to lie. Everyone’s talking about how you’ve supported me and this is a brand that supports pregnant women. And that’s, I, you’re making me lie. I feel like you’re making me lie. It was a really difficult time.
When you leave Nike, you’re looking for another shoe company and you find Zel and you take a meeting with Zel. Obviously we’re running outta time, but could you briefly talk about going to that first meeting with them because this, this feels like you. You’re leaving a sauna and there’s this breath of fresh air.
I just loved the environment. I loved everyone I met. But I also felt embarrassed because they sat me down and they said, well, what do you wanna talk about? What are your passions? And I was like, well, what do you guys wanna talk about? What are your passions? Because no one had ever asked me that in all of my 12 and a half years as a Nike athlete.
I was told what was important right now, which seems to me like a huge brand. Like Nike would do that. Yeah, no, but they would tell me what’s important. Right now we’re doing fly knit right now. We’re doing sunglasses right now. We’re doing whatever it is, lunar glide, whatever it is. Like this is what we’re doing.
No one had ever asked me like, what do you like, what are you excited about? What makes you feel excited? So I was so embarrassed because I was like, well, I mean I, I like women, right? You guys like women. I mean, it was so pathetic, but it was a huge makeup call for me. I remember when I left thinking I’m in my mid thirties and I don’t know what I care about.
And that’s a problem. Like I need to really deep dive and figure out who I am because for so long I’ve just done what everybody tells me to do and I don’t really, I haven’t really asked myself what is it that I want and what is it that I care about. What was empowering for me, and I think will be empowering for people as we close this out is that they say that they can’t afford you.
And you say, make me an offer. Can you tell everybody? Because this clearly proves it ain’t about the money Kara anymore. Tell the, can you tell everybody how much they, uh, they paid you? Yeah. So I was making 3 25 base at Nike. I did get a million dollar contract offer from another company and Zel said, we can’t pay.
I said, just anything. They offered me 20,000. And I said, done. That was so kick ass. So awesome. Thank you. I just feel like you’ve given the industry just the finger. It’s so good, but it’s not about the money. And I feel like now you’re back to that little girl in middle school who’s, you know, beating the love of her life, Scott.
In. Yeah, I mean, the end of my professional career was a bummer ’cause I didn’t make the Olympic team, but it was the happiest point of my professional career because I was running because I loved it. I was running with brands that believed in me and didn’t, they wanted me to do well, of course. But there was no like, well, if you don’t do that, I’m taking away some money.
And so I feel so lucky that I got to go out of my career with people that cared about me. And I was running, you know, like The Bachelor. But I really was running for the right reasons and it was awesome. Throughout this book, whether it worked out or not, it was clear you were always trying to surround yourself with great people from your grandfather being your coach, to your coach at Colorado, frankly, to even going after Colorado versus other schools that didn’t have programs like theirs.
And then believing that Nike was going to be that next step. Like you’ve always tried to surround yourself with the right people and that resonates. But, but I wanna ask about this project in general. You worked on this with one of the most amazing writers, Mary Palon. Can you talk about that partnership?
Like how did you and Mary get hooked up for this? So I, I talked to a lot of different people, and everyone I talked to, I was like, oh, I really like them. But when I talked to Mary, I was like, I really like her. She had just enough edge, you know, because we could tell my story, but not put in the money, not put in the details of the, like, the incidents between Alberto and I.
You could still tell an interesting story where Mary was like, it’s all or nothing, Kara. Like, it’s either we’re talking about everything or I’m not doing it. She just became such a close friend. There were times where we would work a few hours a week, multiple days a week together, and there were times where I just.
Like would cry the whole time and like we would get no work done. And she was there for me and, um, I just appreciate her so much because there’s no book without her and she’s just an incredible woman. And I think you said this before we started recording, but she’s a total, total badass and I feel really lucky to have her in my life, man.
I feel lucky that I know her to do so, so I’m with you. I’ve only interviewed her twice and I’m like, oh, this is awesome. The book is the longest race inside the Secret World of Abuse, doping, and Deception on Nike’s elite running team. It’s available yesterday, wherever books are sold. Um, we, we touched the surface guys.
We, we touched just the little, couple of the highlights. I got one more question I can’t let you go with asking you. You are a new podcaster. You and Des Linden, who by the way runs in a place near a guy Doug. Uh, uh, uh, she’s up in upper Michigan. Doug’s in upper Michigan. He sees Des running by his house all the time.
But, uh, how did you guys decide to do podcast? You know what, when she got fourth at the Olympic trials, we both stumbled into the hotel from separate places around midnight. And we looked at each other and we were like, wanna go get a beer? And that was the start of a friendship, a loose friendship. ’cause we don’t live by each other.
And then she was in Boulder, um, this past fall and we got a coffee, we were gonna meet for like an hour and then four hours later we were like, we’re starting a podcast. And we just, we were just like, we’re gonna talk about stuff and we’re gonna record three episodes and if nobody likes it, then we’ll be done.
But if people like it, we’re gonna keep going. And it seems like people have liked it, so we’re gonna keep going. I’ve liked it. It’s called Nobody Asked Us. You can listen to that wherever you listen to us now. Kara, I know you gotta go. Thank you so much for hanging out with our stackers and giving us this great money lesson that’s not always about the cash.
Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I’m Liz, the Chief Mom officer, and when I’m not busy being the breadwinner of my family of five, I’m Stacking Benjamins. Big thanks to Kara Goucher for coming on the show and. Money. Money, money, money, money, money, money, money. Hey, let’s roll Haven Lifeline. Oh, before that goes any further.
Don’t, don’t need any more of that. In my life, we’re gonna tackle some of life’s most important questions. Our friends at Haven Life Insurance Agency, og, they put what you value first. Is it running? Is it distance running? I was thinking about running, but I’ve started walking, which I feel like you should walk before you run.
Although, was I talking to you Doug? Where I was walking, but I had a cigar. Yeah, it was me. So does that count? He’s like, like, what’s that noisy I’m hearing? Oh, it’s just me trying to light my cigar. I thought you said you’re gonna go on a walk. No, I’m gonna, this is gonna be a walk while I have a little, uh, little pep.
I need a little pep in my step. What’s that noise? I hear? Oh, it’s just the pizza box opening. Kara, you ever uh, drink bourbon and run? Yeah, the beer mile? Yes, let’s do it. I’m in Tucker has to do that this weekend. He lost his fantasy football league, and he has to do a, he, he has a choice. He either has to do a beer mile or he has to get tasered.
No beer mile for sure. He’s doing the beer mile, but he doesn’t really drink, so they’re both gonna be, it’s a tough choice for him. Oh, have you been tasered before? It’s no choice. Running running is way better. In, no matter the condition, but carry on. Joe. What, what does Haven Lifeline have to say about this?
Our friends, our friends Haven life. Say it’s your loved ones and your time, spending time with them, which is perfect. Far better than getting tasered or I’m, I’m sure that’s what Matt wants. Have you spent a Christmas at my house? I’m sure that’s what Matt wants in the script haven life. Better than being tasered, better than being tasered.
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And of course, they’re backed by their parent company, MassMutual more than 160 years old. Today we’re gonna throw out the lifeline to our new friend Patrick. Hey, Patrick. Hi, Joe, N-O-J-J-G. I recently switched jobs. I would like to know if there are any advantages to keeping my 401k for my old employer, where it’s at currently, or if it’s better to just roll it over to an IRA.
I have almost 250,000 total split between Roth and traditional. All of my contributions have been Roth since I started contributing in 2014, and I have not rolled any employer contributions over to Roth. So all of that is still traditional. The administrative fees for the 401k are minimal and the investment options are low cost Vanguard index funds that I would likely use anyway if I rolled the funds over into an IRA.
My wife and I are about 30, and we would like to have full-time employment be optional by 50 or 55. So are there any advantages to keeping my 401k where it’s at or should I roll it into an IRA? Patrick, thanks so much for the question and we haven’t had this one in quite a while and it’s a great, great question.
What do you say to Patrick? And really when you leave your job, you have a couple of different options. So obviously the first option is if your plan allow, and these are all subject to whether or not the plan allows you to do it, and some of ’em have account minimums, some of them will have costs associated with it if you wanna do.
But the first option is to leave it. So kind of what he’s talking about here, I’ve got a good plan, it’s got the investment choices I like, it doesn’t seem to cost much. I’m happy where it is. Uh, you can leave it if your company plan allows you to do that. The second option is the other thing that he’s talking about, which is to take it out, roll it into uh, an IRA or to a Roth IRA Patrick’s case.
He’d have one of each because he is got Roth money and IRA money benefit there is that it’s accessible to you. It’s from a liquidity standpoint. If you, you know, happen to need it for whatever reason, there’s different choices from an investment perspective. Um, also the cost could be better or the same at least as what the 401k plan is.
Sometimes it’s easier if you have other money. You know, you have a portfolio of regular investments at Fidelity and you can put your 4 0 1 or make your 401k rollover to an IRA at Fidelity easier to manage. The other option is you can put it in the new plan at the new company, which is an option he didn’t bring up, which is, can I take the old 401k and put it in the new 401k?
And a lot of plans will allow you to do that. I think the things that he’s thinking about, there are the pieces that you would want to evaluate. You know, what’s the cost structure, what’s the ease of use? The biggest problem that we see with people that leave plans and old 401k locations is that if it’s a small amount, maybe you change jobs, kind of back to back is we forget about ’em and you go, I will never forget about my $20,000 at Chicken Express when I was there when I was 15.
That’s a lot of money. It’s like, yeah, you will when you have $2 million in your 401k at your other company. And you’ve moved six times, they will lose track of you and you will forget how to log in and you know, and it just will kind of fade away and then you’ve lost that money. I doubt that you’d forget about 250,000.
So, so I don’t think that’s a real issue for Patrick, unless he’s got, you know, two and a half billion or something laying around then, then, then maybe you forget about 250 K. But little different than losing $10. Yeah, 10, 10 bucks finding in your jeans. Oh yeah, look, yeah. Um, there’s some other considerations too, I think in terms of like, how does the other plans, how’s the other stuff that you have going on in your life from an investment standpoint stack up with the tool that you have with the old plan If you are trying to build a cohesive investment strategy, sometimes you don’t have all of the options available to you in the plan that you have.
Again, in Patrick’s case here, it sounds like maybe he does or he is at least satisfied with the options that he has. So these are all the things that you would want to consider. And the last thing is that I would say. Some of the distribution rules are different between IRAs and 4 0 1 Ks, especially around that early retirement.
So if you’re thinking about using some of this money pre 59 and a half, you wanna be aware of which one gives you the most flexibility. But the cool thing is, is that at 30 you don’t have to make that decision. Now there’s probably gonna be changes anyway between now and 50. So I really wouldn’t stress what the rules are today because you know, you got 20 years to solve that problem.
But that’s a consideration as well. Thanks for the question, Patrick. If you’ve got a question like Patrick had, go to stacky Benjamins dot com slash voicemail and you know what? We will make it worth your while. We will send you a Haven Life Greatest Money show on Earth Circus t-shirt, which is, uh, fantastic.
Doug, you’ve been, uh, telling our stackers in our Facebook group to put some of those online. We’ve had a couple people take you up on it. Yeah, we got one from New Zealand that was awesome and she’d been in, in Antarctica. I noticed there was no T-shirt picture from Antarctica. From an article. She waited till she got to New Zealand where she’s like, it’s in the fifties.
It might be too warm. Isn’t that what she said? So Amanda, and then we’ve got Tyson in the Arctic Circle who share stuff. So we have listeners, community members from North Pole all the way to the South Pole and all parts in between 47 countries. That’s pretty amazing. That’s really, really cool. It is. When Tyson’s showing us the Northern Lights and Amanda’s taking a break from, from Antarctica, Tyson, Tyson in Antarctica or in, uh, Anchorage?
Is that where he is? No, no, he’s in the Arctic circle. He’s, he’s north of there on an installation. Yeah. Say Anchorage is like 10 miles north of me. 10 miles. Well, it sounds impressive when you say I’m in Anchorage, Alaska, but I mean, if you just draw a line horizontally, it’s like the next county up from me.
Oh, whatever, stacky Benjamins dot com slash voicemail. That’s if you wanna brags about where you’re from, okay. To us. And ask and ask a question to the Haven Lifeline. I’m a latitude bragger. Do you know where I’ve been? Hey, uh, speaking of where we’ve been, by the way, we’ve got some good stuff coming up here tonight.
I will be headed north to the Economy Conference. If you’re there, stop by and say, hi, doc G and I are doing a meetup OG at, uh, my favorite microbrewery in town called TAFs. Alehouse. Baby. They took a church. If you’ve ever wondered the next time we’re there, Doug, we gotta go there because church, this place is amazing.
They took a church and they. Turned it into an ale house. It was an old, abandoned, boarded up church, and it is the most beautiful place. And Cheryl and I, the first time we went there after we were told about it, there was a choir singing, uh, from the area that had been the altar, which by the way, instead of the altar, I don’t know if this is sacrilegious because churches definitely go to hell for whatever you’re about to say.
Yeah, the church has already not been a church before, but where the altar was are these huge tanks now full of beer. So do with that what you will. But it’s a beautiful venue. The event is sold out. However, if you just come hang out at the bar as soon as, uh, as soon as the what hour and a half timeframe’s over, we’re just gonna take over the whole place.
So come join us if you’re in Cincinnati. Cincinnati tomorrow night. WK Rrp tomorrow night. All right. That’s gonna do it for today, except for one thing, which is I know a lot of people come to a show like ours because you’re worried about the economy. You’re worried about our headline today. Uh, which is that the job market might be slowing down.
You might be worried about a lot of stuff, and if you’re feeling anxious to make some moves in your finance, what I’d like you to do instead is check out this free guide OG and his team have put together that’ll help you plan more and panic less no matter what the market does. It’s got some great insights on what you should be doing and smart questions to ask yourself so that you’ll make financial decisions that your future self will thank you for.
And to get that you head to Stacking Benjamins dot com slash guide. That’s Stacking Benjamins dot com slash guide. Alright, that’s our community calendar. Hope to see a lot of you in Cincinnati, but right now, Doug, I got a question for you, man. What should we have learned today? Well, Joe first take some advice from Kara Goucher.
Sometimes it’s not about the money. Don’t be afraid to speak up and tell your story. Second, looking for a job. Look to your network, and if you’re not yet looking for work, make that network more robust now so you’re not scrambling later. But the big lesson mall walking is hard. You gotta like really get to Kara Goucher’s level on this stuff to both be able to crank your hips but not drop your Cinnabon.
I mean at coffee too. That’s totally next level.
Thanks to Kara Goucher for joining us today. You can run and grab the longest race inside the secret world of abuse, doping, and deception on Nike’s elite running team at bookstores near you. We’ll also include links in our show notes at Stacking Benjamins dot com. This show is The Property of SSB Podcasts, LLC, copyright 2023, and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy.
Our producer is Karen Reine. This show was written by Lacey Langford, who’s also the host of the Military Money Show. With help from me, Joe, and Doc G from the Earn and Invest podcast, Kevin Bailey helps us take a deeper dive into all the topics covered on each episode in our newsletter called the 2 0 1.
You’ll find the 4 1 1 on all things money at the 2 0 1. Just visit Stacking Benjamins dot com slash 2 0 1. Tina Eikenberg makes the video version of this show. Once we bottle up all this goodness, we ship it to our engineer, the amazing Steve Stewart. Steve helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as I do right now.
Wanna chat with friends about the show later? Mom’s friend Gertrude and Kate Youngin are our social media coordinators, and Gertrude is the room mother in our Facebook group called The Basement. So say hello when you see us posting online to join all the basement fun with other stackers, type Stacking Benjamins dot com slash basement.
Not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s Mom’s neighbor, Doug, and we’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamins Show.
Get an inside look at Hollywood with Michael Rosenbaum. Let’s get inside of my father, John Glover. You know, we watched Talk film and, and most of these episodes I never saw, I didn’t watch the show. You never once saw yourself on Smallville in the beginning. I used to look at myself all the time and love to, and then as I get older, I stopped.
Why is that? I don’t know. Maybe ’cause I’m older. I was gonna talk to you about that. ’cause you’re 79. Yeah. How old do you feel? 11. Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum, wherever you listen.
Welcome to the After Show. Normally, I play a clip of the movie that we’re about to talk about. And by the way, if you’re new here at the end of the show, we have this lovely hidden track every time that we call the after show. You can call it dessert if you want to talk about it. Otherwise, just don’t talk about it and we’re good.
It’s fun for people to find on their own. However, we talk about all things non-money, so if you’re here for money stuff, we’ll just catch you next time. But normally, as I was saying, I, I will often play a clip of the movie that I saw or that maybe that Doug or OG saw this movie. I saw the new Antman movie guys.
I saw the new Antman, and you know what? It sucked. It was the same crap that Marvel puts out over and over and over. So I don’t even wanna play the trailer ’cause I want this to just go away. Whatever happened to good guy fights bad person or good person fights bad person in the world as we have it.
This whole idea of these quantum realms and a whole damn movie that’s in front of a green screen in these weird universes with these strange creatures like this, okay, I get that. It’s comic books, but we’re so far from Batman and Superman and just the basic stuff. It’s just so weird. It’s gotten so weird.
They’re fighting this entire movie in the quantum realm. What the hell’s the quantum realm? And why do I care? I was gonna go down the path of like, I’m really ticked off that my auto insurance has gone up a whole bunch, but no, I like this better. Yes, this is, oh, I die in this hill. This is a way bigger hill, I guess I could tell.
I, I agree. It is, it is so stupid. You know what, so my, my question is, when you, when you got the ticket to Aman, were you expecting it to be Well, Oscar winner? Like, we’re like, well, this is gonna be the Marvel movie where they break the mold. It’s got Paul Rudd. Everybody likes Paul Rudd. I love Paul Rudd. I think Paul Rudd’s awesome.
Michelle Pfeiffer’s in it. Oh yeah. Michael Douglas is in it. Michael Douglas. He’s like 85. Yeah, he is 85 and he’s in it. Yeah. All right. Cool. So you were expecting a nomination for Best Picture overall and Evangeline Lilies in it? Like just, I don’t know, just a, just a great cast. Yes. Uh uh. No, I was not expecting that, but OG I was expecting, I was expecting not to just be completely let down.
And in fairness, I probably wouldn’t have even gone to see it. But a good friend of mine actually bought me a ticket and was nice. Cheryl was out of times like, Hey, you wanna go see it man, with me? I’m like, yeah, it’ll just be fun to go hang out with my buddy Rick. And then Rick texts me and goes, okay, I bought your ticket when I was buying ours online.
I’m like, oh, well let me pay. Nope, you’re not paying me back. So it makes me feel a little bad saying, Hey, I went See it, man, for free. I my good buddy. Thank you to my buddy. It was very nice. But the movie blew, and by the way, I was starting to say this earlier. You know what the takeaway is? Literally the takeaway of the movie.
I’m gonna go ahead and blow this, blow this up for everybody. Spoiler alert. Being a short man sucks. Almost Doug. Seriously. Almost that bad. It’s never too late to not be a, and by the way, those are exact words. That is the theme of the movie. It’s never too late to stop being a just, come on, come on.