Tax planning in June? Of course! Why would you wait until next year, when you can’t make ANY financial moves that save you money, to start figuring out how to cut your tax bill? Right now, at nearly the halfway point of the year, we’ll dive into how to understand your taxes and make cuts with our tax planning mentor, Hannah Cole. Hannah will walk us through tax savings ideas for everyone, and then we’ll focus on those people who have either started a side hustle or who are entrepreneurs and share some great tips for business owners. Even if you’re just dreaming about having a business or “working for the man,” we’ve got you covered.
Plus, in our headline segment, two brothers woke up one day this spring and found themselves disinherited, losing out on approximately one million dollars! How did that happen? It could have all been avoided, and YOU can avoid this problem too. We’ll walk you through HOW to make sure your beneficiaries receive the funds you’ve decided should go to them. We’ll also explain how wills and trusts work, and get you started toward building a better “estate plan.”
Of course, Doug brings his awesome trivia challenge AND we answer a question from a Stacker in need.
Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201
Enjoy!
Our Headlines
- His Ex Is Getting His $1 Million Retirement Account. They Broke Up in 1989. (Wall Street Journal)
Hannah Cole
Big thanks to Hannah Cole for joining us today. To learn more about Hannah, visit About — Sunlight Tax. Tune into Hannah’s podcast, Sunlight on Apple Podcasts.
Doug’s Trivia
- What gift did France give to the United States on this date in 1885?
Better call Saul…Sehy & OG
- Stacker Sarah has a question about how to maximize workplace retirement contributions when she switched employers during the year, from a small business to a large business [Simple IRA to 401(k)].
Have a question for the show?
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Tune in on Wednesday when we’re helping you get more efficient with your money, specifically talking about moving your money to where it’s going to benefit you the most.
Written by: Kevin Bailey
Miss our last show? Listen here: Your 7 Biggest Retirement Money Headaches (SB1531).
Episode transcript
[00:00:00] Joe: It is Monday, and you know what the best way is to start your Monday? Uh, uh. That may be the yes. If I weren’t being sarcastic. Absolutely. Uh, but sadly it’s with a, it’s with a kitchen sink that won’t drain ’cause Ah, God knows. That’s [00:00:18] OG: always a fun, a fun way to spend the morning. Is that what you’re [00:00:20] Joe: dealing with right now? [00:00:21] Joe: Yeah. There’s something, uh, Doug likes this motion too, but you, you take your plunger and you go up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down. Two hands. I’ve built a career with that motion. Too bad, uh, Doug wasn’t here to help Mama Unc unplug the sink beforehand. You rushed in at the last second. Yeah. Maybe 25 seconds. [00:00:40] Joe: I’d have had that baby cleared. Yeah, it would’ve, would’ve been great. But truly, I think the best way to start our Monday is the way we do it every week here in the basement for our new stackers. We want you to raise your mug right now with, uh, whatever drink you have, and we’re gonna salute the people that kept us safe all weekend long while we were all partying. [00:01:02] Joe: On behalf of the Men and Women Making podcast to Moms Basement in the Men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union, here’s to our troops. Let’s go stack some Benjamins together. Now, shall we drink chocolate milk? [00:01:15] OG: All right, here we go. Hold your ears, folks. It’s Showtime. [00:01:25] Doug: Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show. [00:01:40] Doug: I am Joe’s mom’s neighbor,, Doug. And when’s the best time to plan your taxes? No, it’s not April 14th. It’s way before tax day like today. So let’s learn how to plan ahead for paying taxes with artist and host of the Sunshine Podcast. Anna Cole, in our headlines, how would you like to give your ex a million bucks? [00:02:01] Doug: Well, that happened to one person and now Mm-Hmm. Yeah, right. Could it happen to you? We’ll share the details you won’t wanna miss. Plus we’ll answer a question from one stacker who thought I’d better call Saul, see hi in og, and then I’ll share some generous trivia. And now two guys who’ve got a gift for helping people better understand personal finance. [00:02:24] Doug: Wait, can we go back? Can I be you guys’? Ex? I’ll take the million bucks. Anyway, it’s Joe and oh, [00:02:38] OG: he keeps acting up. He will be our ex. [00:02:41] Joe: Okay Dad, everybody, welcome to the, uh, let’s give a million dollars podcast, the Stacking Benjamin Show at your three day week confidence booster. And we’re coming in hot on a Monday. Doug was literally coming in hot. He had to change mics because man, that was loud because my previous mic was picking up my hotness. [00:03:00] Joe: Absolutely. Speaking of hotness, we got all the hot tax tips today and og when people think tax tips, they’re not thinking June, but you know what, like Doug said, this is the time to start planning. [00:03:10] OG: Oh, time. Like the present. [00:03:11] Joe: Hannah Cole gonna help us with that. We got a great headline. That man, uh, I think about 50 stackers, sent me this headline, said, you guys gotta comment on this. [00:03:19] Joe: And of course. Letter from a stacker. So let’s get this party rolling right after this. [00:03:26] bit: Hello darlings. And now it’s time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamins headlines. [00:03:33] Joe: Our headline today comes to us from the Wall Street Journal. This might be a cautionary tale written by Ashley Ebling, Jeffrey Eson and Margaret Stet dated in the 1980s. [00:03:47] Joe: Guys, uh, now almost 40 years after they broke up, she stands to inherit his $1 million retirement account play at og. [00:04:02] Joe: I did not expect that one. I thought he wasn’t going there. [00:04:06] OG: So all the people that you dated, you never know, went out. You might get a surprise. [00:04:12] Joe: The reason she might get the million dollars is that in 1987, Rollison listed Sault stat on a handwritten form with his employer as the sole beneficiary of his workplace retirement account. [00:04:25] Joe: Uh, how many cautionary tales have we done about this over, uh, 13, 14 years? I think we’ve done, I think it’s like a semi-annual. You, you know how you change the batteries in your smoke alarm? Or maybe you don’t do that anymore if you’ve got the new ones, but it’s kinda like that, like twice a year, we remind you through somebody else’s stupidity that you might not wanna do that. [00:04:46] Joe: He never changed the beneficiary designation. Of course, he died in 2015. [00:04:51] Doug: It used to be that the worst. Decision you could make when you were dating somebody was getting their name tattooed somewhere visible, like on your forearm or something? Nope. Putting ’em on as your beneficiary might, [00:05:03] Joe: might, might have been bad standing [00:05:04] Doug: in the way. [00:05:04] Doug: Or getting married. Or getting married. [00:05:09] Joe: Cautionary tale. After three children, you can get a divorce. It’s hard to get rid of a tattoo. [00:05:14] ?: True. [00:05:15] Joe: Standing in her way are Lyon’s brothers who learned about SOL stat’s claim to the money weeks after his death and a phone call from their estate lawyer. They don’t think he could have intended to leave the money to her. [00:05:27] Joe: Uh, we were shocked, said his brother Brian, a mechanic I. The brothers have been fighting his former employer, Proctor and Gamble, in federal court to rest the retirement money outta the hands of Sote. Now, Margaret Lozenger, and you know what? og, it doesn’t look good. [00:05:41] OG: I’m guessing that the nice lady who got the surprise email of a lifetime isn’t like, wait guys, this shouldn’t be mine. [00:05:47] OG: It should be yours. We just stated, for a short period of time, I wanna do the right thing. Yes, I, I’d want to be taught a lesson. [00:05:57] Joe: She definitely taught them a lesson. Yeah. Oh gee, let’s go over this. Let’s say that the will says that the brothers get everything. This is probably the case here. I don’t know. But in a lot of times, you know, that’s why the brothers probably think that they’re getting his money is because his will says that he gets the money. [00:06:13] Joe: Which one takes precedent? The will or that Proctor and Gamble form? [00:06:17] OG: Well, in almost every case, it’s going to be the beneficiary assigned to that account. You know, a lot of people think, oh, I don’t have any heirs. I’m single. I’m young, I’m divorced now, but I didn’t have any kids. I don’t need to make changes to this. [00:06:30] OG: Whatever was the last thing you wrote down is the thing that’s gonna happen. Beneficiary designations on accounts will always trump other estate planning documents, whether it’s in a, a will or a trust. If you say, well, no, I did a trust and my trust says I want it all to go to my brother, if your brokerage account says it goes to the cat, the cat gets the money. [00:06:54] OG: Or if it says it’s going to, you know your, in this guy’s case, your ex, probably because 40 years ago when he worked there, he didn’t ha, he’s like, well, I got a girlfriend, I guess, yeah, something happens. I give it to her. I don’t know. You know, my brothers are young. You know [00:07:10] Joe: exactly what he thought about that was, oh, I’ll just change it later if something happens. [00:07:14] OG: Yeah. Yeah. I read this story and I know that Proctor and Gamble had sent him a bunch of pieces of info along the way. Hey, by the way, we don’t have an updated thing. We only have what’s written. Obviously, back in the day, this wasn’t all electronic, and that’s one of the challenges is that. If you’ve been at a place for a really long time and there’s been some technology changes over the years, you might have filled out a beneficiary form on paper and that might be in, you know, a corporate record somewhere and you look online and it says beneficiary on file. [00:07:46] OG: They may have said, oh yeah, we’ve already got your paper form, but that doesn’t tell you who it is. We’ve also seen it be the case where the people have done the online thing, like logged into their 401k provider or their IRA or their brokerage account changed it and a year later it’s no longer there computer glitch. [00:08:03] OG: It just [00:08:04] Joe: either never took or went back to the original. Something never took, [00:08:06] OG: you didn’t hit save three times. Are you sure you’re double sure? Are you extra sure I’ve done this? I mean, we’re all guilty of this on Amazon, right? You know, you’re like, oh, I need that thing and you to send, and then like a couple days go by and you go, didn’t I order batteries? [00:08:19] OG: And you go Look, and you no still sitting in your Amazon cart. You’re like, no, I thought I hit, [00:08:23] Joe: huh? [00:08:24] OG: I did this with airplane [00:08:25] Joe: tickets one time and it cost me $400. Yeah. ’cause I didn’t hit that thing at the end. It said, Hey, you know, here’s all your flight details. And I’m like, okay, cool. Yeah, perfect. But you, you gotta scroll to the bottom and go confirm and then hit confirm one more time. [00:08:38] Joe: Yeah. Didn’t do it. Found out like four days later and the price had gone up a ton. [00:08:42] OG: Yeah. This is something that you just gotta check every so often, you know, even if you go, no, I, I’m a hundred percent sure I did this last week. Great. Set an alarm, like you said, when you change your smoke detector batteries and just go look again. [00:08:54] Doug: Yeah. And just because I’m captain obvious I’m gonna ask this question in case anybody else is, I mean, I know the answer, right? But I mean, just in case somebody listening doesn’t, you know, people change employers, you finally do your roll, like you roll over a previous 401k into your new one. Those previous beneficiaries, they’re gone. [00:09:11] Doug: Right. It’s the, it’s wherever you’re rolling into that, that now takes precedence over everything. That’s like if you do rollovers and you’ve got four of ’em and you’re rolling ’em all over at once, they all disappear. All the legal documents attached to ’em disappear. And it’s whatever you’ve got set up for the place you’re rolling into. [00:09:27] Doug: Correct. [00:09:27] OG: Yeah. And that’s a good observation too. I mean, again, you think, okay, I did this once, or I did it, you know, it’s obviously gonna go to my kids, or it’s obviously gonna go to my spouse. And maybe you’re consolidating it into an account that you’ve had it even longer that has a different, you know, that has something different on it. [00:09:42] OG: It’s just wherever the money is, you know, you get hit by the proverbial bus that, that it’s gonna matter. So, and the other thing you don’t wanna do, this is another thing that I see people do is they’ll write silly things like my, you know, follow the guidance in my will or my estate. They’ll check the boxes, says my estate, I. [00:10:01] OG: What you’ve basically done then is taken your ability to make the determination away and said, I will leave this to the court system to decide. And talking about different accounts being different. Different states have different rules too. It’s pretty universal. You know, the first couple layers, right? [00:10:17] OG: Where you go, you know, if you, if you’re married, it’s gonna go to your spouse. If you don’t have anything listed, if you don’t have a spouse that’s gonna go to your kids, if you don’t have anything listed, if you don’t have any kids, it’s gonna go to your parents if you don’t have anything listed. And then after that, it gets a little squirrely in different states based on brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and grandnieces and grand nephews and all this other sort of layers of people. [00:10:36] OG: And if somebody in that chain has passed away, even though there’s other people at that level, it’s gonna be different. So don’t take away your ability to make that decision by being lazy and checking the box. Like put somebody’s name there. You know, if you have a trust and you wanna put your trust, you can, but use somebody’s actual, you know, don’t just write my kids. [00:10:56] OG: Wow. Right. I’m glad, glad you said out, glad that, because I [00:10:58] Doug: would’ve thought. That if I checked my estate and I had a will in place and I had directions in place, I think of that as like, okay, that’s, that’s gonna govern everything in my estate. I would’ve thought that that would’ve prevented the 401k from going into probate. [00:11:11] Doug: You’re saying No, [00:11:13] OG: no. A will doesn’t prevent you from going to probate either. A will guarantees you’re going to probate. As a matter of fact, it’s a, it’s a probate admittance document, but [00:11:20] Doug: you’ve got trust set up as part of your whole estate planning process. I would’ve thought, right, that if I just checked my estate, that that would’ve taken precedence and, and like pulled the money in. [00:11:30] Doug: Had I checked that box that says my estate, you’re saying it doesn’t, [00:11:33] OG: well, you, you just said will’s in trust. Those are two different things. So Will is your wishes? A trust is a living document, a living entity that extends beyond your lifetime. In any of those cases, when you mark my estate, it doesn’t go to either of them. [00:11:47] OG: If you want it to go to your trust, you need to say, the beneficiary is my freaking trust. And then the trust would own it. Yeah. And I think the way to [00:11:53] Joe: think about this is to think about the two different levels of estate planning. Level one, the will tells probate what to do, gives what you [00:12:03] OG: want to have done. [00:12:03] OG: It doesn’t tell them what to do. It tells them what you want to have done. [00:12:06] Joe: Good point. It gives probate your set of instructions. So if you put your estate, it’s going to go to probate or if you put the will and the will references the trust, which happens in a lot of trust work. But if you go state lazy trust work. [00:12:22] Joe: Exactly. It goes to the will. The will automatically goes to probate. ’cause that’s what a will is, is it is your wishes for what probate does. A trust is like setting up a separate company. And because you’re setting up a separate company when you die, the trust does not die. It now gets a new CEO, which is your contingent, uh. [00:12:44] OG: Trustee. Yep. [00:12:45] Joe: Thank you. Oh my God. Your ex-girlfriend. Oh, trust as a trustee. That is so, so weird. Or in this case, ex-girlfriend. Right? It is a contingent trustee and the contingent trustee now takes over this company that stays alive after you die. And there’s a set of instructions about how that company will die, right? [00:13:02] Joe: Everything gets passed on to beneficiaries. So if you want it to avoid probate, don’t put your estate specifically, put the trust. And specifically that trust has a name, like every company has a name. Your trust has a name, name that company in as much detail as you possibly can so that there’s no mistaking that this will avoid probate completely. [00:13:26] Joe: And you know, it’s been a long time, OG since we’ve had an estate attorney come on and talk about this. And we know a great one who is fantastic at explaining all of this. So we’re gonna have, uh, our friend, Tim, come on here in, uh, shortly, hopefully by the end of summer. I. We’ll dive into estate planning. I do wanna say something else on this though, while we’re here today, which is some pretty common estate planning mistakes, og, because I think there’s, there’s a lot of them, but I think one that is very, very common is putting your parents in charge of your state, being that contingent trustee, or being the executor of your will if you’ve got nobody else to choose, choose your parents. [00:14:09] Joe: Yeah. But for most of us, your parents are going to predecease you, and if your parents have passed away, you’ve just created another heap of problems. If the executor of your will or your continued trustee has passed away before you have, [00:14:25] OG: well, a lot of times they have layers to that. If your estate plan’s done well, it’ll say it’s this person and this person and this person. [00:14:31] OG: You know, there might be a couple listed in there. It’s interesting. We go through these different stages in our life, and I think we just have to recognize that these different, these different seasons happen when you’re 25 and you’re sitting down at your first job and the HR person slides the thing across to you and goes, here’s your 401k information. [00:14:48] OG: Uh, go ahead and sign up and log in and choose all your stuff and we’ll get you squared away. Right. Well, who’s the person you probably call, you might call mom or dad at that point. Sure. Like, I don’t know what do, what do I do? I’ve been, you know, I, I know I need to invest here. I, but as you get older, maybe you change that to your spouse, and that’s a different season of your life. [00:15:05] OG: When you’re like 80, you probably are going back to your kids now. Like you, you see it like a, when you’re 40, you’re not gonna put your 8-year-old in charge of your trust, but when you’re 80, you might put your 60-year-old in charge of your trust. You know what I mean? But you’re definitely not have grandkids. [00:15:18] OG: It’s not, it’s not a one and done. Yeah. There’s different times where these different people, uh, make sense, but you have to review it. You can’t just, I. Set it up one time and be done because then stuff like this happens and everybody says the same thing. It’s so funny. People say, I will never lose track of money. [00:15:35] OG: I will never lose track of an old 401k. I can’t tell you how many times somebody showed up in my office and gone, I got this stock certificate from uh, Disney. What do you think this is about? I found this in grandpa’s drawer. I had a client one time who goes, I keep on getting these letters from Land O’Lakes. [00:15:53] OG: I’m like, the butter company? Yeah. I’m like, well, what does it say? It says that they need my new address. I’m not calling these idiots. I, what the hell do they need my new address for? For butter? I said, well. Is there any chance you worked at Land O’Lakes? Anytime? Well, I mean when I was in high school, but what the hell would they need to know? [00:16:08] OG: Now? Why don’t we send ’em your address and find out. It turns out you had one chair and it split 18 times. Well, no, it was, it was, it was a pension. It was like, it was a very small amount. It was $108 a month or something vested pension that, you know, this guy worked at, from the time he was 16 till he was 22 all through college and he had a little bit of money, like just waiting for it. [00:16:29] OG: He was 70 years old. Ed never, never received his pension. He forgot that he worked there. A hundred bucks a month is like [00:16:35] Joe: butter for life. [00:16:37] OG: It’s like, you know what the cash, it’s that, and he is gonna worry about the butter anymore. So you are gonna forget about it because life happens. And this is why you have to have a, a system for reviewing these things on a frequent basis. [00:16:48] OG: And estate planning is one of the key areas of financial planning and it’s just one of the things that you have to go through every so often and double and triple check to make sure it’s the way that you want. [00:16:58] Joe: Coming up, of course tomorrow. If you wanna dive more into estate planning, as I mentioned, we’re gonna have a state attorney on, uh, before summer’s over. [00:17:05] Joe: We’re gonna dive into this in a complete episode to watch, uh, for that in the near future. However, tomorrow in our 2 0 1 newsletter where we dive more into links and, uh, the nitty gritty, as mom says, of this entire, uh, situation and how to set up an estate right, Kevin Bailey will dive into a bunch of curated links about how to get educated on your estate plan. [00:17:29] Joe: Stacking Benjamins dot com slash 2 0 1 to sign up. Always free the 2 0 1 newsletter. Comes out every Tuesday and Thursday coming up next. Hannah Cole is just amazing. She is an artist who kept hearing over and over, og, you know what? Artists are bad with money. Artists are bad with money. She’s like, I don’t think we have to be bad with money. [00:17:47] Joe: And then she hired a CPA to help her. And guess what? The CPA talked to her like. She was seven years old. She’d never understand this stuff. So she went and got her her CPA. And of course, now she not only runs a podcast called Sunshine, which helps creators with their money and their taxes, she helps creators with their taxes. [00:18:09] Joe: And today, because we’re all creating a better future for ourself, she’s gonna help you think about not just your estate planning like we just did. She’s gonna help you think about your tax planning when you should, which is well before the end of the year, probably right about now at the halfway point. [00:18:24] Joe: She’s got some great tips. So, Hannah, coming up next, but before that, Doug, you’ve got the most amazing part of every show. Only [00:18:34] Doug: reason anybody’s here, Joe, our trivia. Bring it. You want me to give my tax planning help or are you talking about the trivia? Oh, the trivia. [00:18:41] Joe: Yeah. I think, we’ll, we’ll go ahead and we, [00:18:43] Doug: we don’t wanna upstage Hannah. [00:18:45] Doug: Okay. Alright, I’ll, I’ll give it a shot. Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. Yesterday was Father’s Day, which means dad’s across the country were showered with useless gifts such as mugs that say, I love to fart. I would love that mug. Goofy ties that have no appropriate place to wear them and tools to help them do even more chores. [00:19:05] Doug: Luckily, I’m not a dad no matter what that kid on the phone keeps trying to tell me. So, because I’m definitely not a dad, I don’t have to worry about getting silly stuff. Bachelors get way better gifts anyways. I usually get things like funny socks to wear all the way to the very climax of the third date. [00:19:22] Doug: It’s way different. Speaking of gifts, today’s trivia question is what gift did France give to the United States on this date in 1885? I’ll be back after I finish filling out my Amazon wishlist. You know, just in case anyone out there wants to surprise me. [00:19:46] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m Nude Sock model, and World’s greatest re-gift, or Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. Although the French are best known for their wine, their cheese, and chain smoking toddlers, when it comes to gift giving, they won’t part with any of those things. Today’s trivia question is, what gift did France give to the United States on this date in 1885? [00:20:08] Doug: The answer measuring an astounding 305 feet tall, weighing in with. 31 tons of copper and 125 tons of steel. The Statue of Liberty was given to the United States by France for our country’s 100th birthday. It’s funny, I actually thought the answer to that was gonna be Joe’s mom after all those stats. [00:20:26] Doug: Anyways, I can’t imagine. Whoa. Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You are not getting any brownies [00:20:34] Joe: today. I think. [00:20:35] Doug: I can’t imagine what a pain it must have been to wrap and ship that thing. Wonder what the return policy is. Anyway, now here to teach you how to best navigate taxes. It’s today’s mentor, Hannah Cole. [00:20:47] Hannah: She’s [00:20:47] Doug: got a a lot of work joining us this [00:20:49] Joe: summer. In there, in the basement with us is our friend, Hannah Cole. How are you, Hannah? [00:20:53] Hannah: I’m great. Nice to be in the basement with you. [00:20:56] Joe: Well, we got to first meet you on Instagram, uh, during tax season. Thanks so much for doing that. But I, I thought, you know what’s funny? [00:21:03] Joe: I. Nobody thinks about taxes during the summer, and as a guy that used to be a financial planner, I think you probably agree with me, this is the time when you can really do some great tax planning. [00:21:13] Hannah: Absolutely. Not to mention, your accountant will get back to you and answer your questions where maybe in three minutes. [00:21:21] Hannah: I know. Which is not true in March. Right. [00:21:23] Joe: What kind of mutant are you thinking about taxes in the summer? Yeah. You know, everybody thinks about tax time in March and in April when you’ve just got the shoebox of stuff like for our average stacker out there. Why is it that we should be be thinking about taxes here as much as we’re thinking about our summer vacation? [00:21:39] Hannah: Well, you can save more when you think about it before the year’s over, you have the ability to actually do something about it. Whereas if you’re only thinking about it after January 1st, you kind of missed your window already on a lot of things. Also June. Is it June 1st or July 1st is the midway. We’re about at the midway point. [00:21:57] Hannah: Yeah. We’re approaching the midway point of the year. So you can kind of just look back at your numbers and double everything to give yourself a really easy projection tool. [00:22:06] Joe: That’s a great idea by the way, for people. Look at it that way, mark. ’cause now you still got plenty of time to tweak. [00:22:12] Hannah: This is even better than year end tax planning, which happens like the phrase sounds like at the year end. [00:22:17] Hannah: Oh wow. But cry. But the idea there is that you get your numbers organized so you know what? You’ve almost made kind of before the window is closed so you can MacGyver like. Sneak under the, that marks how old I am, I’m afraid. But like MacGyver, you can like sneak through the garage door as it’s closing. [00:22:37] Joe: Nice. With duct tape and a coat hanger [00:22:39] Hannah: and a piece of bubblegum. Yeah, [00:22:41] Joe: absolutely. We solve the world’s problems. That’s all we do. That’s right. Uh, gen Z. Go look that up. Just go look it up. We’re not gonna take any time outta MacGyver, but let’s talk to the average person for just a moment. Mm-Hmm. That has a nine to five People with a nine to five generally have a very straightforward tax situation, Hannah. [00:22:57] Joe: But there’s still things we can do that are better for our taxes that maybe we don’t do for. So for somebody just starting out in life Mm-Hmm. What are some great tax ideas that the person starting out might go, oh, that’s pretty cool and I should do that. [00:23:11] Hannah: Okay. Two of the best things you can do. I usually work, I mean, I really specialize in self-employed people so that you’re making me think like what employees, ’cause they’re so easy, they don’t need as much help. [00:23:23] Hannah: But if you’re an employee or if your spouse is employed, because, um, when you’re married and you file a joint tax return, that’s your money too. You know, you, you have one tax return. Your employee benefits package is something that a lot of people, when they get a new job, they might take a look at. I hope they do, but a lot of them like stick it in the drawer and they’re like, I’m gonna do that later. [00:23:42] Hannah: If you did that, it might be time to pull that back out again and be like, do I have some benefits that I’m not taking full advantage of? Because just taking whatever amount of time it takes you to set up, you know, if they have an FSAA flexible spending account program through your work or sometimes there’s like childcare account. [00:24:01] Hannah: Oh, the childcare account. [00:24:02] Joe: Oh my god. When my twins were young. Oh, the childcare stuff was a light. I mean, the amount of money you can save by using your benefits for that is huge. [00:24:12] Hannah: Oh my goodness. Yes. For somebody who’s an employee, you’re probably the biggest bang for your buck that you can get with your taxes is really just like looking through your benefits package and your spouse’s benefits package and making sure that you’re using all of those tax advantaged accounts that your employer might give you access to. [00:24:30] Hannah: And also like then think about me and all of my clients who don’t get those things. [00:24:34] Joe: Yeah, [00:24:35] Hannah: enjoy it. [00:24:37] Joe: Well, no, and all of our stackers have thought about a side hustle, which is also why I wanted to talk to you. ’cause you know. Mm-Hmm. It’s the summertime and people are thinking, what should I do differently? [00:24:45] Joe: And maybe it is a side hustle, but before we get there, I do think, like I see somebody with an HSA and I start drooling. Yeah. I’m like, oh, HSA is a great opportunity. [00:24:54] Hannah: They’re sort of magical, they’re kind of unbelievable. For those of you who want the definition, which I think is important to always define things. [00:25:00] Hannah: Uh, HSA health savings account, easily confused with an FSA flexible spending account, but actually quite different. The health savings account, the HS eight, you can only open one if you have a high deductible health plan and you have to actually go onto your, you know, healthcare plan and like look up if it qualifies as one. [00:25:20] Hannah: But if it does, you basically get access to this, this really cool tax advantage account where when you put the money in, you put it in tax free and as long as you take the money out to pay for eligible medical expenses, which are pretty broad, like they can include eyeglasses and contacts and all kinds of stuff. [00:25:40] Hannah: Then it’s tax free again when you take the money out, which you know, if you’ve ever looked at the way that the taxes work on other tax advantage accounts like your 401k or an IRA, you only get a tax advantage on one end of those transactions, HSAs, you get a double benefit, so it’s a little bit magical. [00:25:58] Hannah: You can also invest the money that’s unused inside an HSA, and so that’s another piece of magic. You can actually have that money be growing and getting compound interest magic [00:26:09] Joe: on top of magic. On top of magic. It’s like Stacking coupons, you know? It is [00:26:13] Hannah: the ultimate Stacking of stacks. Yes, [00:26:16] Joe: yes. One more question for people just starting out on the nine to five. [00:26:21] Joe: Which is this. You know, we look at this thing that my partner OG and I call the tax triangle. We’ve got money going in pre-tax, and then when you pull it out, you pay tax on the back like your 401k, but then you got that Roth option on another end of the triangle where money gets taxed now fully, but then it’s gonna be tax free later. [00:26:39] Joe: Then we have this flexible money on the third, right, like a regular brokerage account. Yeah. I wanna talk about these two ends though. The Roth versus the regular. I’m in my first job, I’m signed up for my 401k. They’re giving me the option. Do I do the pre-tax option? Do I do the Roth option? What are the things I should probably be thinking about there? [00:26:54] Joe: Hannah, I. [00:26:55] Hannah: We could talk about this for the whole time if we [00:26:58] Joe: wanted to. Let’s do it. No, that’s gonna be time number two. We’re gonna have you back and let’s do that. [00:27:03] Hannah: Yeah, I would be really happy to, sometimes I think that people fuss over this question as a way of procrastinating and not making a decision. [00:27:10] Hannah: So I do wanna say, if that’s you, if you’re listening and you’re thinking, let me obsess on this little detail so I can avoid the big thing. Just just pick one and it doesn’t matter. But for the rest of us, you know, if you do the Roth, there’s some people out there, some personal finance people. I, Susie Orman is one of them who says, you should always do the Roth. [00:27:30] Hannah: It’s always better. [00:27:31] Joe: Yeah. We have Ed slot on a fair, I mean, we’ve had it slotted over and over and he’s like Roth all the time, period. [00:27:36] Hannah: Yeah, I mean, I get that. And the logic of that is that you are saving. Taxes on an unknown future tax rate, and many people suspect that tax rates in this country, despite how you might feel personally, are kind of unsustainably low and are likely over, you know, a multiple decade period to rise that they think that’s universally gonna be a good thing. [00:28:00] Hannah: Sure, that’s a good argument. I work with people who are lower income and often really struggling with cashflow. A group of people who really struggles with cashflow and coming up with the money to make a big tax payment are self-employed people, because a lot of times they have not gotten the memo about paying taxes quarterly. [00:28:18] Hannah: You know those of you with a W2, you are paying your taxes with every paycheck, which is lovely. That’s why your taxes are relatively simple and you always get a refund. But when you’re self-employed, you’re often facing a really big tax bill and that like amount of dollars in your bank account on April 15th is actually becoming a very critical question for that person. [00:28:38] Hannah: A lot of the time it’s a traditional account or nothing. And so I’m not saying 401k here ’cause they don’t generally have access to a 401k. Yeah, right. But still that question of the take the benefit now or take it later. So for that person, I think, you know, you’re still getting money in a retirement account and that tax benefit that you get this year is gonna give you a little extra cash to help you with that tax bill. [00:29:02] Hannah: Do that one. You know, don’t stress over the perfect and make it be the enemy of the good. That, that’s my personal philosophy. [00:29:09] Joe: God, you sound like mom with that quote. Mom’s always saying that same quote upstairs. Hannah, the perfect. Yeah. Well, and I love this ’cause people do that, right? They get all nerdy and they’re like, oh, so I’m gonna make no decision. [00:29:19] Joe: I love the fact just you’re gonna be better off if you pick one. I love that. Speaking of that, you had an episode of your podcast recently talking about like financial health and taxes. I’ve never drawn the line between those two and we’ll, we’ll have a link to this episode ’cause I thought it was really awesome. [00:29:34] Joe: Your financial health overall in taxes. What was your overall take there? [00:29:37] Hannah: Yeah, I’m glad you liked that. I think taxes for most people is really one of the only times they ever check in on their money. I know people who listen to this show will probably think you about it a little more, and so that’s great and kudos. [00:29:50] Hannah: But for a lot of us, it’s really the only deep dive we do into our finances of the year. And so for that reason, if you can tie things that are healthy for you financially to the doing of your taxes, you’re gonna put yourself in a better position and set yourself up well for your future. And I, I think that’s a good thing. [00:30:08] Hannah: Primarily the biggest one, I mean the HSA is great, take advantage of an HSA if you’ve got a high deductible health plan always. But retirement accounts. If you’re a young person without a ton of money, if you can set yourself a habit of every single year and tax time is your prompt, every single year you max out your IRA. [00:30:29] Hannah: That’s a pretty great habit. Like if you had one easy wealth building habit, that would be it. And then if you wanna get deeper and do more, there’s more you can do On top of that, we can talk about solo 4 0 1 Ks. We could talk about set IRAs. There’s other bigger and better ones, but just that simple one, you know, as a place to start. [00:30:49] Hannah: I think it’s just a good like annual check-in with your finances as and an annual moment to remind yourself, did I maximize my retirement accounts? That’s a good piece of financial health [00:31:01] Joe: and that’s why we wanted hand on during the summer. ’cause everybody thinks about it. Oh, in March. And then the second you file your tax return. [00:31:07] Joe: It goes away. Yeah. Like the second you file it, you’re like, okay, I’m good for a year. No, you’re not. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. [00:31:12] Hannah: I like breaking down the numbers to like a, a weekly and a daily amount. I should have done this math before I got on here, but, but the current max that you can put into an IRA and an IRA is available, whether you’re self-employed or employed, there’s a little bit of an upper, you know, if your income gets too high, you don’t get to use one anymore, but generally you have other options. [00:31:32] Hannah: But $6,500 if you’re under 50 and $7,500 per year, if you’re over 50. So $6,500 broken down per day is about 17 $18. That’s not that crazy high. I mean, it might not feel like nothing, but it’s probably doable. And of course, if you wanna do better. Great. There’s, we can, [00:31:53] Joe: we can talk then look into the more complicated plans for sure. [00:31:56] Joe: Let’s go to our stacker who either says, you know what? I don’t wanna work for somebody else anymore. Maybe they already have their own business, or they’re thinking about this side hustle. Hannah, let’s talk about them. What are some things I do when I set up my business tax-wise to get me started on the right foot? [00:32:13] Hannah: Well, the very first thing you wanna do if you have a gig work side hustle, and especially if you’re gonna grow it into a larger business, get a separate bank account for it. That’s the biggest key. It will make your bookkeeping nice and clean. It’ll keep the IRS happy and we want the IRS to stay happy. [00:32:30] Joe: Why does the I Ires get unhappy if you don’t have that separate bank account? [00:32:33] Hannah: Because there is a risk if your business is not generating profit. And I wanna clarify that. There’s a normal phase in every business called the startup phase, where you generally don’t have a profit, right? It takes money to make money. [00:32:47] Hannah: It takes a little while to break even. That’s normal and it’s allowed, but if you start not having a profit for too many years, it begins to look like a tax shelter to the IRS, and they do not like that. And they’ll get, they’ll come after you and start asking questions, which they have the right to do. [00:33:04] Hannah: But one of the things they’re gonna look for is, well. Is degrees of seriousness. Basically what they’re looking for is do you have a profit motive or is this really a hobby disguised As a business, one of the key things that they look at is do you have a separate business bank account? It’s really easy to open one, but if you don’t do it, you can get yourself accidentally into some hot water. [00:33:23] Hannah: So it’s also just good on every level. It helps protect the separation between your business and your personal assets. If you have an LLC, it’s got it’s, it helps your bookkeeping stay clean, basically. There’s no reason not to do it. It’s all benefit. [00:33:37] Joe: Well, and I love the bookkeeping stay clean part because when I used to be a financial planner and I’d meet with people, Hannah, I. [00:33:43] Joe: And they didn’t do this. They, they really had trouble assessing the health of their business. Like if everything’s run through one bank account, I could tell how healthy I am, but when you’re looking at, oh yeah, well I spent this over here and I spent that over there, and oh, this money went into this pocket and that money, you can’t tell if your business is healthy or not. [00:33:59] Joe: And generally that’s a sign that’s not, [00:34:01] Hannah: I, I’m not here to be on a high horse and say, I’ve always done this. Right. I actually think I’m a good teacher because I’ve screwed everything up. I know why it’s confusing, and I’ve made all the messes myself. I used to do a full year of bookkeeping like three days before my taxes were due, and there’s nothing more stressful and awful than that high stakes bookkeeping. [00:34:23] Hannah: And I didn’t have a separate business account. And I would literally just like print out my bank statement, take a highlighter, and be like. Oh shoot. Was that trip to Lowe’s for my art business or for, was that for the house? Like I didn’t know. Oh yeah, [00:34:36] ?: yeah. Ugh. [00:34:37] Hannah: As soon as you know that you’re only ever making business expenses outta your business account, then you never are confused if that trip to Lowe’s was business or personal. [00:34:45] Hannah: You know, it was business if it’s out of the business account. So you stop missing stuff and you stop that horror show with the highlighter. [00:34:53] Joe: So I have my business account, so I have separation of church and state. I got separation of my family stuff and my business stuff. How do I as a business owner then start setting up my tax stuff so that it really works for me [00:35:07] Hannah: Well, so actually I have more client calls over bad setup than anything else. [00:35:12] Hannah: It is the most confusing thing. Wow. [00:35:14] Joe: So wait a minute. So just foundationally getting this right at the first is gonna save you phone calls to Hannah. Don’t take this the wrong way, Hannah. We love talking to you, but I. Like if, if, if we could talk to you not about that, that’d probably be better. [00:35:25] Hannah: Absolutely. [00:35:26] Hannah: No, I’m really happy for people not to step in a pile of it. I’m, I’m really happy if people don’t feel like they have to clean up a mess. Right? Right. It’s good, it’s good for them. This is gonna sound so obvious, but you’d just be surprised how frequent it is for people to not do it. Don’t form an entity that you don’t understand. [00:35:46] Hannah: That’s my big takeaway. If you don’t know what the purpose of an LLC is, don’t form one. Right. You’re not ready. Even worse, if you don’t know what the purpose of an S corp is. Do not form one I. What I see is, I think people, you know, I don’t know, they get advertised to on the internet, oh, you can save so much money if you form an S-corp. [00:36:08] Hannah: And they’re like, oh great, I wanna save money, and they form an s-corp. Then nobody’s there to tell them, oh, well when you form an S-corp, it’s now mandatory that you now run payroll. You have this really big. Admin job. And not only that, but if you don’t set up your employment taxes correctly with your state, your state’s gonna start coming after you. [00:36:27] Hannah: And I literally, you asked me to tell some anonymous stories about clients. Oh yeah, [00:36:31] Joe: please. [00:36:32] Hannah: I have one. This lovely, well-meaning person, uh, a coach. She got advice, and I see it all the time. She formed an escort because somebody told her to, it was probably an accountant, but then they ghosted her and they didn’t say, oh, and it’s gonna require that you run payroll, that you pay yourself a reasonable salary that you set up with a state that you live in to, you know, collect Medicare, social security and pay into unemployment. [00:36:57] Hannah: And she moved states. She had never set that up. And now the state is coming after her, the state she doesn’t even live in anymore. And she’s in a mess of trouble. And the worst of it is with an S corp. And S corp is a wonderful thing once you’re nice and profitable. So if you’re making over $50,000 of profit, so remember that’s after your expenses, then maybe start doing the math on will I break even if I have an S corporation set up, which is a, it’s a tax structure that can save you some money on self-employment tax, but only once you’re profitable enough for it to make sense. [00:37:33] Hannah: Before that, what it’ll give you is a headache of payroll and a bunch of admin, um, and a bunch of new accounting fees that you might not have been warned about by your accountant who’s like, pretty happy to charge you those. [00:37:46] Joe: Talk about you messing stuff up, Hannah, I guess my first business, Mm-Hmm. Had no idea what I was doing to your point. [00:37:52] Joe: Mm-Hmm. Should have had no entity just doing business as and Mm-Hmm. Because I wasn’t making any money. C corporation. C Not even an SAC. [00:38:03] Hannah: Yeah, that’s a really complicated one. [00:38:05] Joe: Yeah. Dumbest move ever. And we don’t have to get into it. I just, uh, stackers understand what you’re getting into before that. Yeah. [00:38:13] Joe: So you’re getting into accounting as an artist. Tell us about that. How easy is it for an artist to all the sudden bridge the gap into, into accounting? Like now you’re going from one set of art nerds over to the money nerd space. Hannah. [00:38:29] Hannah: Yeah. Well, it wasn’t even worth it for me to tell anyone in the program that I was an artist. [00:38:35] Hannah: ’cause the stereotypes about artists were so pervasive. [00:38:38] Joe: One started that I just [00:38:39] Hannah: preferred to stay anonymous. But, um, this is my favorite thing about it. As an artist, you have to be an a student. Everywhere you go because you know it’s very competitive and you’re only gonna make it as a professional if you are top notch and you never let an opportunity pass you by. [00:38:56] Hannah: Well, I went back to school for accounting at Brooklyn College and they invited this partner from Ernst and Young, one of the big four accounting firms to come and like speak to the accounting students. And I was like, okay, amazing. And here I am with my like a plus artist hat on and I’m like, I’m gonna use all my tricks, right? [00:39:14] Hannah: Because in the art world, to get a gallerist or a collector to talk to you is really hard. So I do all my tricks. I like wear a really loud shirt that’s very memorable. I read all up about this partner. I like read his bio. I look at some of the cases he’s worked on. I like really try to figure out what he’s interested in. [00:39:33] Hannah: I prepare three like smart sounding questions and I get to the thing early and I sit in the front row and I get in there and people are like. On their phones in the audience, barely, barely paying attention to what he says. And, um, you know, he asks at the end, any questions and my hand goes shooting up and just no one in there cared. [00:39:57] Hannah: No one in there raised their hand and asked a single thing. And, and so I just, I was like, well, so I just like start asking him all my prepared questions. He must have loved you. Oh my God. Well, it worked. It was like bringing a battering ram to a screen door. I was like, wow, this opens so easily. I, I was sort of shocked, but it just occurred to me, I mean, first of all, it was lovely. [00:40:21] Hannah: We’re still in touch. We went to lunch like the next week he became a mentor. He’s a delightful human. I really, really like him. And he, he helped me a ton because he was like, wow, you’re so, uh, into this. But what I realized was like, you don’t have to be an excellent accountant. There is so much accounting work, you can kind of suck and you can be fully employed. [00:40:44] Hannah: And I’m afraid that probably a lot of your listeners have some experience with this. Like your accountant does not get back to you. They ghost you. I. They do half the job and they kind of forget what they promised they would deliver to you. ’cause you can do that as an accountant. You can’t do that as a professional actor or artist. [00:41:01] Hannah: You will never get work. [00:41:02] Joe: No. Well, and I just think of every art gallery I’ve walked into and, and Cheryl, my spouse and I love art and we go to a lot of galleries. If your work doesn’t pop for the average person, I mean, and, and the only people that are in the gallery are all the other A plus students. [00:41:16] Joe: Right. Just to get in the gallery, just to get there is a challenge. And now you’re up against the best. And if it still doesn’t resonate with somebody on the other end. That’s funny because I think about what my friend Doc G at the Earner Invest podcast is talked about. Doctors. Like if you’re the worst student in your class, but you graduated, they still call you doctor. [00:41:36] Joe: Right. [00:41:37] Hannah: I know. I love that. [00:41:38] Joe: Well, that’s a great lead in then to a question. So there’s so many bad actors. There’s so much bad help all over the place. I mean, there’s a woman on TikTok who drives me crazy because she talks about hiring. Your kids and how much money you can shelter by hiring your kids. And I was a financial planner long enough to know you can hire your kids and that’s great and it’s fine, but you really gotta hire your kids. [00:42:01] Hannah: You really have to hire them, and you better be running payroll to do it. [00:42:05] Joe: I know. And not week, week, nod, nod. My 8-year-old is doing all this work. Yeah, sure. Yeah. They’re doing all this work, if you know what I mean. Mm-Hmm. Like it is such, she, even, even on the TikTok videos, it sounds like a scam. And I don’t wanna follow that advice. [00:42:17] Joe: How do we ask the right questions to make sure we have the right advisor in our corner? Oh gosh. That’s a really good question. That’s a whole nother episode too, probably. That [00:42:27] Hannah: definitely is a whole nother episode. I have a piece of advice that is really, probably pretty different from what other people would say, but it’s from my own experience. [00:42:35] Hannah: My first thing is if you go to a financial person, accountant, financial advisor, anybody, and you don’t feel like they’re. Taking you seriously or just respecting you on a human level. I would not work with them. It’s never gonna improve from there. Right. Day one is their best behavior and uh, so it gets worse when they get busy. [00:42:57] Hannah: And I say this because, I mean, just a little of my backstory is that I am a professional artist. Um, even to this day. And I started this tax education company because I was so angry with how I was treated. That, you know, accountants really did not know the difference between, I mean, nobody knows what artists do all day ’cause we work alone. [00:43:17] Hannah: No accountant knew the difference between a professional artist and a hobbyist, and they just assumed I was a hobbyist when I, anyone in the professional world could recognize me instantly as a professional. But it was so frustrating to me to be given the same bad advice over and over again by people who had no idea what my world looked like. [00:43:36] Hannah: And so I was like, okay, it’s time. I’m mad enough, I’m gonna go back to school for accounting because people like me need really need to feel seen and really need somebody in our corner who like gets this world. [00:43:47] Joe: Oh my God. So the accountant’s going, oh, how cute, Hannah, your hobby. Oh, your hobby. Oh, how neat. [00:43:52] Joe: Yeah. Exactly. So frustrating. What of my first freelance gigs when I moved over from financial planning to the financial media side, was writing pieces for a woman who works with actors. Cool. And you know, your average actor says like, I’m sure a lot of your artists, they’re like, oh, I’m bad with money. I don’t need to be good money. [00:44:10] Joe: I’m an actor. And they’re like, yes, you really need to be good with money. You, you really do. And there’s no reason you can’t be, uh, yeah. That, that can be frustrating. [00:44:20] Hannah: Well, I’m glad you’re seeing that ’cause I think that’s really true. And it’s not just actors and artists. I mean, there’s lots of people in the world who kind of are told or live in a stew that says every day to them, you’re bad with money. [00:44:33] Hannah: And it can become easy to start to believe it when PE enough people tell you that. So I just, you know, here I am. I’m a woman, I’m a. Professional artist, and I’m not a flake, like you’re really capable. You can be good with money. And also the fact that, like, I also wanna say, I think it’s easy to tell yourself a story that you’re bad with money. [00:44:55] Hannah: ’cause you made some screw ups in your twenties. But Joe, who doesn’t, [00:45:01] ?: right? [00:45:01] Hannah: Who doesn’t screw up with their money in their twenties, like, who doesn’t make some dumb moves? It’s, it’s kind of normal. You actually become good with money because you messed up at some point. And I’m the first to say it. I’ve made all the screw ups, but now here I stand as an expert because I learned, [00:45:19] Joe: oh my God, that’s so funny. [00:45:20] Joe: We have so much in common. But you know, our stackers, longtime stackers know that I’m here as a testament that you can get this all wrong. Change everything and then get it right. I wanna ask about something that is big, which is not just artists, but you know, sometimes the business just struggles, right? [00:45:37] Joe: You have this idea, Hannah, and it doesn’t go the way you want. You’re frustrated. You mentioned something earlier that with the IRS, the clock is kind of ticking. What is that ticking time bomb When the IRS goes, okay, the gig’s up. I know you tried, but this is a hobby. I’m sorry. Even if you want it to be the thing, it’s a hobby. [00:45:56] Joe: What’s our timeline look like? [00:45:58] Hannah: This is the core question for me and it’s probably what sent me back to school for accounting because this happens to artists, actors, people like me so often ’cause our business is so hard that despite you genuinely running it like a business and genuinely doing everything you can to make a profit, you can still be unprofitable. [00:46:20] Hannah: I mean, it’s the reality of the tough, tough, competitive world we’re in. The IRS would prefer not to audit you. They’d prefer to just look at your numbers, you know, look at your tax returns without corresponding with you. Make judgment. I think that’s make judgment, both of us, by the [00:46:33] Joe: way, Hannah. I’d prefer they did correspond with me too. [00:46:36] Joe: Yeah, [00:46:36] Hannah: we can agree with that. So they have kind of a rule of thumb that is called the hobby loss rule. Basically that exists so that they can look at your last five tax returns and make a determination without having to communicate with you. Believe me, you would prefer they didn’t communicate with you the way that that rule goes and, and accountants get this wrong all the time. [00:46:56] Hannah: I’m here to. Literally to fight with all my prior accountants before I became one myself on this issue. It’s really just a guideline. It’s not a law, right? So it goes like this. If in the last three out of five tax years, including the current year, you have made a profit. Then you are presumed by the IRS. [00:47:18] Hannah: If you get audited, you’re presumed to be a business. In other words, the IRS, the burden of proof is on the IRS to prove that you’re not, to prove that you’re a hobby and not a business. That’s the core issue because a business is entitled to take tax deductions and have losses. Hobbyists aren’t allowed either of those two things. [00:47:37] Hannah: But here’s the thing, if you don’t have that profit in three out of the last five years, a lot of accountants will tell you, and they’re wrong. They will say, you’re a hobbyist. Now, here’s the thing that’s not true, that that’s not necessarily true. What it means is the burden of proof shifts. So it means if you get that hobby loss audit where the IRS comes and says, uh, we’re a little concerned that you know, you might not be entitled to these deductions or this loss on your Schedule C, which is, you know, where you put that business income, now the burden of proof is on you. [00:48:10] Hannah: But I am here to tell you, as a person who has read the tax court cases on artist losses, I put my flag in the ground as the expert on this issue. You can prove that you are a business even with, you know, Susan cry in the tax court case cry versus commissioner proved that she had a profit motive and was entitled to all her deductions after 18 years of losses. [00:48:32] Hannah: Mm. And Gloria Churchman and Churchman v Commissioner is another one. Who also proved that she was a professional artist with a business intent despite like 20 years of losses. I interviewed Susan Kriel over that, frankly pretty awful eight year saga, you know, audit saga that she went through, but she won. [00:48:52] Hannah: The angry version of me is like, stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Accountants. [00:48:59] Hannah: But it does mean if you do have a bunch of losses, you wanna be pretty careful. You wanna make sure your records are impeccable because burden of proof. Yeah. Better [00:49:07] Joe: be clean because they’re coming. [00:49:08] Hannah: Because a burden of proof is on you. Yeah. You are gonna be in a position where you have to prove it [00:49:13] Joe: to them, and your point is, at that time it is fair of the IRS to come and go, why don’t you show us? [00:49:19] Hannah: Absolutely. I don’t quibble with that. Yeah, absolutely. It’s fair. [00:49:22] Joe: Yeah, man. If only there were a podcast where people could get more of this. Goodness, Hannah, I wish there was a podcast out there. Where people could hear some fantastic stuff. Does that exist? [00:49:32] Hannah: You mean, could they get a, an episode specifically dedicated to the IRS’s nine point test for exactly this issue? [00:49:39] Joe: Yes. That comes at you, maybe like a ray of sunshine? [00:49:43] Hannah: Yes. It’s called sunlight. Wow. That’s weird. That’s my podcast. Thank you for queuing that up for me. Yeah, very subtly [00:49:51] Joe: too. I did it very subtly. [00:49:52] Hannah: Yeah, no, I mean I’m, I’m a convert to tax nerd nerdery and I really enjoy it. [00:49:59] Joe: Besides the podcast, I also know that the LL c, there’s some new rules around LLCs. [00:50:03] Joe: Is that the deal? [00:50:04] Hannah: Yeah, there’s a new rule. It’s actually to prevent, like financial crimes, money laundering, terrorism, all that, human trafficking, bad things, little things. So it’s a good rule. I’m full supporter, but um, I. There is jail time and there’s a $500 day penalty if you don’t do it. So it’s very important that you do the do the thing. [00:50:23] Hannah: So the thing [00:50:23] Joe: orange is not my color. Hannah. So, yeah, [00:50:25] Hannah: yeah, right. Mine neither. The new rule is if you have an LLC that’s preexisting, you have one year to file and if you form an LLC anytime after January 1st, 2024, then you have 30 days with information to file this report. But you have to file a new report called a beneficial Ownership Information Report, BOIR, short. [00:50:49] Hannah: I really kind of wanna put this out as a PSA because it’s free. It takes like five minutes and there’s a lot of places that are charging money for it, and there’s some scams going around. I’ve had clients send me letters that are like scams because LLC, um, addresses or public information. So it’s really easy for scammers to like send you a letter about this. [00:51:07] Hannah: So it’s free and it’s fast, but it’s mandatory and there’s potential jail time if you don’t do it. So I made a little short mini course just walking you through awesome. How to file this new BOI report, which basically just says, who is the beneficial owner of your LLC so that you can’t, you know, create a Shell corporation and start selling human beings, [00:51:30] Joe: which might be a good thing. [00:51:32] Hannah: I think it’s a good thing he said with lots of sarcasm. [00:51:35] Joe: For people who don’t understand, that was sarcasm people. Uh, what’s the link? How do we get it, Hannah? [00:51:38] Hannah: Sure. It is sunlight tax.com/llc. So it’s four people who have LLCs. So that’s my website, sunlight tax.com/llc. [00:51:48] Joe: I’ve a link to that and the podcast in our show notes at stacky Benjamins dot com. [00:51:52] Joe: Hannah, thanks for being our mentor today. [00:51:54] Hannah: It’s such a pleasure as someone who’s made mistakes in the past and has gotten better, I hope that is hopeful to all the stackers out there because you know, like mistakes are how you learn, so I think it’s awesome. [00:52:07] bit: Hello, fellow stackers. I’m Michelle from Enid, Oklahoma. [00:52:10] bit: When I’m not taming Lions as a veterinary technician at an all cat clinic, I’m Stacking Benjamins. [00:52:18] Joe: Big thanks to Hannah for hanging out, and I, I love the point OG, that even though most tax planning is for people that own their own business, now there’s something all of us can do. There’s something, we’re all probably screwed up. [00:52:27] Joe: You must see that in your financial planning meetings that, you know what? We can just do some tweaks here and here and maybe save ourselves a few bucks. [00:52:34] OG: It’s always the things that are like, oh, that’s just a little bit. I was talking to, uh, my Uber driver a couple of weeks ago as I was driving from one place to another, uh, riding from one place to another. [00:52:43] OG: He mentioned that he was in the restaurant business, and he said that you have to annualize your restaurant expenses because everything is, you know, such a consumable in the restaurant business. It’s easy to like get lulled to death with, oh, that’s only 3 cents. He’s like, but you use a thousand napkins per dinner rush at 3 cents a piece times 362 days a year. [00:53:02] OG: You know, that’s a $40,000 expense. So if all of a sudden it’s 2 cents instead of three, this is a big deal. I was thinking about that in the context of planning. We, we sometimes will say, oh, well, you know, it’s just a few bucks of taxes. I’m just a little inefficient with my brokerage account in terms of rebalancing or something like that. [00:53:18] OG: It’s like all those little bits add up over long periods of time and it can make a big difference. So I don’t know why you would, you know, willingly give extra money to, uh, uncle Sugar. I think he’s got enough. [00:53:29] Joe: And a way to do that tactically, by the way, because a lot of times I think people get overwhelmed. [00:53:34] Joe: I sometimes get overwhelmed when I go, oh, how do I handle all these, you know, death by a thousand cuts, right? og? Yeah. So what I do is put them on my calendar, just one a day. One a day, and I just, wow. One today you [00:53:45] OG: love, you two love like death by a thousand paper cuts. Every day I’m gonna think about my taxes. [00:53:50] OG: Ugh, that’s, no, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about [00:53:53] Joe: all these little tiny things that you need to fix, right? All these little things. God, my list would be endless. Well, right, but I get this advice from a woman who was talking about cleaning out that closet that we all have, where you’re like, oh, I don’t think I want to go near it. [00:54:05] Joe: She’s like, listen, it took you 15 years to build that up. Just take 10 minutes a day for the next two weeks. And believe it or not, it’ll be done before you know it. And it’s almost like you’ve talked about a lot, og, the hardest part of going out for a run, putting on your shoes. Right? So I find that if I dedicate. [00:54:21] Joe: Two minutes to it and I’m like, oh hell, I’m here now. I might as well keep going. [00:54:25] OG: Doug wants to know if you dedicate two minutes, but it only takes 30 seconds. What do you do with the other minute and a half? [00:54:31] Joe: That’s right. I think you fall asleep after. Yeah. Fall asleep crying. Don’t you fall asleep crying? [00:54:39] Joe: Is that, is that what happens? Not again. Usually sad. What the hell are we talking about? Hey, I know what we’re talking about. We’re talking about meaning out it’s closet. Yes. Song. Clean up the closet. It’s time for the segment where somebody said, you know what? We better call sa CI and og. This is where we shine a light on an issue that one of our stackers have probably a lot of our stackers have. [00:55:00] Joe: But one was brave enough to call in and ask us a question about it. If you’ve got a question, don’t take, take that much [00:55:04] OG: bravery. [00:55:05] Doug: Let’s be real. It truly doesn’t. I don’t get it. Yeah. I don’t understand it. Why people send us stuff and we get these amazing questions and it’s easier to call. Than it is to write it out. [00:55:15] Joe: We saw Lori who wrote in, and she was nice enough to po about her daughter’s situation. Oh yeah. A couple weeks ago. And she posted that in the basement Facebook group and she’s like, I should have called, [00:55:26] Doug: I should have called. She posted the text message string with her family. Like every family now is a group chat with the family. [00:55:32] Doug: And she played. Oh, we don’t, I’ve cut those people off. No, I’m kidding. Yes, we do. But, uh, but that’s what she posted. And it was great that her daughter was like, oh my God, they’re talking about me and like, I’m famous with this whole group of people. It was, it was cool to see that. I’m glad she posted that. [00:55:49] Doug: That was fun. It was neat. And at the very bottom, it cutoff right at the, at the bottom. Like she didn’t give the whole conversation. But on the second screenshot right at the bottom, you could read it’s epic. I’m sure the next thing was gonna be, yeah, Doug is. I’m pretty sure that’s what got cut out at the bottom of that. [00:56:05] Joe: And on that note, to move right along, let’s say hello to our friend Sarah. Hey Sarah. [00:56:13] caller: Hey Joe and OG and Neighbor Doug. I have a two-part question, so I hope I get two T-shirts. I, until March was working for a very small business and I’ve been maxing out my retirement accounts the last several years. So I was on track to max out my simple IRA, which was the account that I had through that small business. [00:56:36] caller: I have several thousand that was contributed by me into that this year. But I was let go at the end of March and I’m about to start a new job in July with a regular 401k. Do I need to take into consideration how much money I contributed into that simple IRA when I’m planning for the max contributions that are allowed into the 401k. [00:57:02] caller: I’ve been maxing out my retirement accounts, including my Roth IRA, and then workplace retirement accounts the last several years. And I’d like to continue doing so and just wanna know if there’s any penalties or anything. If I max out my 401k this last half of the year, I don’t even know if I’ll be able to, but I just wanna know if it’s allowed. [00:57:23] caller: And then my second question, can I roll a simple IRA into. A Roth ira or does it have to be a traditional ira? Thanks so much. Bye. [00:57:34] Joe: Well, Sarah, fantastic questions and uh, it’s, we have trouble giving away one T-shirt. Sarah’s like, uh, I think I need two. ’cause we’re just made of money. You got these things stock piled up. [00:57:45] Joe: It’s a whole reason we podcast. It’s just a bathing money like Scrooge McDuck. [00:57:49] ?: Yeah. [00:57:49] Joe: Uh, uh, Sarah, we’d love to, uh, send you some swag though, because those are excellent questions. og. First thing is she put money into the simple, she changed jobs. Does she have to be cognizant of the amount she put in the simple when she starts her 401k with the new job? [00:58:06] OG: Alright, so this is a question of multiple employers. But not at the same time, right? So you have a simple IRA through company A, and now you have company B. You’re working at a different company and they have a 401k option. So a simple IRA is a type of retirement plan that’s meant to be set up for relatively small businesses and is quote, simple to establish and maintain and has very low costs. [00:58:31] OG: A 401k has a ton of reporting requirements, actuarial requirements, testing plan requirements, and has, you know, some additional cost to it. So you don’t see a lot of 4 0 1 ks for really small companies. You see, you know, a simple IRA. The answer to your question is yes, you can contribute to the 401k, but you have to take into consideration your simple contributions for your plan maximum. [00:58:53] OG: So if you put in $5,000 into your simple, the maximum for the 401k is 23,000, you’re eligible to contribute 18,000 the rest of this year. And that’s also true if you had two jobs at the same time. You can’t, you know, if you say you work at company A, company B, and both of ’em have 4 0 1 Ks, you can contribute to both of them. [00:59:11] OG: You just can’t contribute 23,000 to both of them. The aggregate amount is the 23 K of contributions to the 4 0 1 Ks. If you do put in too much, it’ll be recognized on your tax return and, you know, you pay a, uh, a tax on that. So account for your simple contributions through the end of March. Subtract that from the 401k max or whatever you’re planning on doing. [00:59:34] OG: Divide that into how many, um, how many pay periods you have left for this year. And that would be give you an idea. The other thing that I would remind you to do is don’t forget to change that contribution amount, uh, the first of next year, because if you’re trying to max it out for 2024, you’re gonna be putting more money in probably throughout the rest of this year than you need to every single pay period for 2025. [00:59:55] OG: So just remember to, to adjust your contributions in 2025 and give yourself a little bit of a. Take home pay raise at the beginning of next year. Uh, the second question was, can I roll my simple IRA out into an IRA into a Roth IRA? So there’s some rules around distributions from simple IRAs. You have to have had the account for two years. [01:00:13] OG: So if you work there for two years and contributed for two years, you’re eligible to roll it over if you haven’t had it for two years, you just have to wait until the account’s been there for two years and then you can do that. And uh, and it’s an IRA, so it’s pre-tax. So you can put the money into a traditional IRA, you can roll it. [01:00:29] OG: Uh, if your plan would allow it, you could roll it into your new 401k if you wanted to do that. Uh, you can’t go directly from a simple to a Roth, but you can do the conversion anytime you want. So you can roll it over from a simple IRA to a traditional IRA and then do the conversion, if that’s what you want us to do. [01:00:43] OG: But just be aware, that’s obviously a taxable event and you should, like our guest said earlier, model that stuff out and make sure that, uh, there’s no surprises. Come tax time. Doug, you checked with the judges? I think they’re only allowing one shirt. [01:00:57] Doug: Yes. Yeah, it was, uh, it got heated back there in the judges’ room. [01:01:01] Doug: It’s [01:01:02] OG: a eastern German, east German judge always. Oh, kibosh is [01:01:05] Doug: everything. It got ugly. I’ve got some stuff to clean up. Alliances were formed, enemies were made, but where we landed as, we can only do one shirt on this one. I’m sorry. [01:01:13] OG: Okay. All right. Well we tried, you took it to the board. Appreciate that. And um, better luck next time, Sarah. [01:01:19] Joe: But hey, I gotta say this, Sarah, one shirt is more than Lori got last week. You know why? ’cause you called in. Yeah, that’s right. Because you called in a hundred percent more shirts. Stacking Benjamins dot com slash voicemail. And you know what? I bet there’s gonna be a lot of stackers in the nation who changed jobs this year and you helped all of them. [01:01:35] Joe: So thank you so much for asking the question out loud so we could solve it for the entire community. Hey, speaking of community time for the part of the show where we dive into what’s happening in our community, our backyard here, mom’s basement. And we start off, I don’t wanna spend a lot of time on this, but Doug, you were talking about, you started watching a show that I liked. [01:01:56] Joe: Yeah. Uh, Franklin, you just watched the first episode. [01:01:58] Doug: I just watched the first episode after the baseball game the other night. And, uh, I love historical stuff. Uh, frankly, I’m a sucker for any show or movie that says based on a true story. Like, I don’t, even if it’s 20% true, like that’s enough for me to, to wanna watch it and learn more. [01:02:14] Doug: So, uh, and I love, look, I’m at that age where you either, you gotta make a decision, you’re either gonna get into historical stuff or you’re gonna get into smoking meats. OG has clearly chosen smoking meats and barbecuing and all of that stuff because you’re too old for CrossFit, right? So, I mean, you got a choice to make once you cross over like 45 or 50, like you get to a crossroads. [01:02:34] Doug: And I chose to, you know, enlighten myself and, and, and edify my, my knowledge of history. So, yeah. So I dove into Franklin because you wouldn’t shut up about it. I watched the first episode and I liked everything about it except. Kirk, Douglas, [01:02:51] Joe: Michael, whatever. Douglas, [01:02:52] Doug: they’re the same person. [01:02:53] Joe: Spartacus, [01:02:54] Doug: pretty much. [01:02:56] Doug: Kirk Douglas. Spartacus. It’s Gordon Gecko, not Spartacus. Okay. I just couldn’t, he just wasn’t believable to me. Based on everything else I’ve read or seen a hundred percent or seen about Franklin as a person, a hundred [01:03:13] Joe: thousand percent. [01:03:13] Doug: It just didn’t come off as this elder statesman who was able to go over there and sort of cajole the elite of France. [01:03:22] Doug: And I’ve gotten anywhere yet except, you know it’s, it’s episode one, but I’m just like, this isn’t the guy who convinced a whole country to come and support this little revolution. [01:03:31] Joe: I got through episode one and it was sketchy whether we were gonna go to episode two or not. Yeah. I was like, I don’t know. [01:03:37] Joe: This is all right. This is okay. But yeah, Michael Douglas was not doing it for me, and it seemed, it seemed a little clunky. It just keeps getting, every episode gets better. [01:03:49] Doug: Is it better because you’re just, the way they constructed the story and you, you know, the ending? Or is it better ’cause Michael Douglas gets better? [01:03:57] Joe: Both. All the above. Okay. All the above. Michael Douglas also, you realize the Franklin that he’s building and there is truth in the Franklin. He’s building where he is, schmoozey and swarmy. And he’s, and he’s, uh, he’s, uh, [01:04:10] Doug: smarmy. [01:04:11] Joe: Swarmy. Smarmy. I think [01:04:12] Doug: smarmy is what you’re going Swarmy. He didn’t become a [01:04:14] Joe: mosquito. [01:04:15] Joe: He didn’t swarm. Oh, he did. He he smy, he swarmed the French. Yes, Swami. Um, but he. He, uh, you can see the Franklin he’s building and there’s some truth in that Franklin, but you’re not gonna get it in one episode. It’s gonna take you two or three. And, and the Franklin he’s building, by the way, also juxtaposes really well against, uh, the other Americans who are going to come later on and quote, help him, because it, it also builds much more of a, um, okay. [01:04:45] Joe: Of a difference of opinions. [01:04:47] OG: Did you guys watch the John Adams one on, uh, HBO with Paul Giamatti? With Giamatti? Yeah. [01:04:52] Joe: I love that. Cheryl did. She absolutely loved it. Loved it. Yeah. Yeah. She did not like the John Adams that you’re gonna see later, Doug in Franklin, because she loved John Adams. She’s like, John Adams is a badass. [01:05:01] Joe: Why is he such a here? [01:05:05] Joe: But he was, if you look at historically, he was so set in his, you know, this is the way we do stuff that dealing with the French, and that’s what Douglass is building, is, is this difference between him and Adams who’s coming. It sounds like og you got some home repair stuff going on. You found out there’s an issue with your roof. [01:05:22] OG: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. We’ll get somebody out there to look at it. It’s, uh, I have neither the time nor inclination to climb on my roof to [01:05:31] Joe: check out myself. Take you good, man. Well, the good news is, [01:05:35] OG: oh yeah, that’s what that’s from, huh? [01:05:37] Doug: I have neither the time. No, the inclination. [01:05:40] OG: That’s a great line. [01:05:41] Joe: I’ve heard from a lot of, uh, pros that if you, uh, just, just let, uh, damage to the roof sit, it gets better. [01:05:48] OG: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s what I’m going with. I, I did call and ask a roofer to come look at it. Um, somebody who’s completely impartial has no dog in the hunt. Yes. In terms of, yeah. [01:05:59] Doug: They’ll tell you it’s fine too. We got enough work right now. I got enough income. I don’t, I don’t need to help you out on this. [01:06:05] OG: It looks pretty, uh, looks pretty fouled up. So we’ll see. Hopefully it’s a big bag of nothing. [01:06:09] Joe: What kind of adhesive you think they’re gonna use to fix that roof? Because it seems like with that big. You know, crater that’s forming on the top of your house, that they’re gonna need a little more than duct tape. [01:06:21] Joe: You’ve seen [01:06:21] OG: Flex Seal, right? Yeah. I think that that will just work. [01:06:24] Doug: Yeah, like six cans of Flex Seal. You’re done. I [01:06:28] Joe: think a tarp, if you just take a blue tarp, nobody will notice that your neighborhood just tarp it off. [01:06:32] OG: We could use, uh, different caulk. [01:06:35] Joe: Yeah. Uh, in fact there’s a few different types. I’ve got, uh, one expert that, uh, we found on YouTube talking about the different types and how you gotta make sure you get the right one. [01:06:47] bit: How to know if white cock or Black Hawk is right for you. Let’s talk about it. It’s important to know that both will get the job done. But depending on your needs and what you need to fill, one is definitely better than the other. In my case, I will be choosing the Black Hawk for the front. If you are working with a large gap or a hole, you will see that this is going to work beautifully. [01:07:06] bit: Now, for the back door, my preference is a white cock. As you can see here, the slot that I need to fill is much smaller. Now, I know some of you may be thinking it’s a little excessive to have two different cocks to get the job done, but I am all about the max efficiency in the shortest amount of time. [01:07:19] bit: It’s also important to have the right size tip for the hole that you need to fill. Even if your cock is well used and pretty beat up like this one, don’t worry, it will still work. Now, the black cock is fairly new to me, but I did decide to go with a larger tip due to the size of the hole that I am working with today. [01:07:33] Joe: Important points when you’re fixing your roof. Yeah, [01:07:36] OG: it’s [01:07:36] Doug: gotta match. Oh, I’ll have to, I I, I have not, uh, seen that home improvement expert. I’ll have to, uh, send me the link for that. I gotta follow her. [01:07:44] Joe: I’ve got an issue myself, which is I got this kitchen sink I was talking about earlier. I thought that I could snake it myself. [01:07:51] Joe: Have you tried Draino? I, we started off with what I told you earlier that Doug is really great at, I, I took, I, I took the plunger and plunged that baby up and down and, uh, that did nothing. Then we went with Draino, drained it twice, and then, uh, went and bought the snake because in my estate sale for my Michigan house, I used to have one. [01:08:13] Joe: And by the way, that saved me so much money. Just snaking that thing myself and super easy to do. [01:08:19] OG: Sure. It’s super gross too. But yeah, no thanks. Yeah, [01:08:22] Joe: your house is not that old, right? Uh, is it? Uh, 1980s. [01:08:26] Doug: Yeah. [01:08:26] Joe: So [01:08:26] Doug: it is. Yeah. No, I’m talking like 1940s. Uh, ’cause they, they, oh, no, no. Yeah, because they changed drain types in like the sixties, so Yeah. [01:08:37] Doug: I don’t know, man, that’s a mystery. If, if all of that, [01:08:39] Joe: I don’t know, isn’t working plumber out today. Bad news. But anyway, we got any home repair people that know some good sleep. You know, you go to the og I was talking to you on the phone actually, when, when I was walking down the aisle. And there’s these solutions, like the super, the, if you guys seen like the super plunger, like the max plunger compressed air, or is it just a manual thing? [01:08:59] Joe: It’s gotta be compressed air, but I like the, the motions that you make. The manual thing. Yeah, the manual thing. Yeah. It, it sends compressed air through it. This particular one at Home Depot made by it said by military vet. So this person. Knows how to bring it, include C four. We’ll fix any [01:09:18] OG: problem in your house. [01:09:19] Joe: We’ll fix it once and all comes with an eight foot fuse. Looks like you don’t have a problem with your sink anymore because you don’t have a sink anymore. Yeah, I don’t know about that. There were all these crazy solutions. And I just couldn’t pick one. So I, I don’t know if anybody’s got a great solution to a clog sink. [01:09:36] Joe: Welcome to a home repair hour. I would love to find out. You’ve [01:09:39] Doug: pulled the PRA right out of the bottom of it. [01:09:42] Joe: Yeah. Did that again, love the hand motion. Don’t need to do that again. Doug. Look, this, you gotta jiggle your fingers a little bit. I’m like, it helps to loosen the P trap. Just, I gotta go throw up [01:09:54] Doug: Doug. [01:09:55] Doug: What, what’s our takeaways for today’s show? So, what’s stacked up on our to-do list for today. First, take some advice from Hannah and begin your tax planning now by making big tax moves now at the midway part of the year, you’ll avoid some potentially ugly moves you may have to make next April, because you waited too long. [01:10:14] Doug: That’s so you, or worse yet, realize some moves that you cannot make because you pulled a U and you waited too long. Second. Hopefully you scored a big takeaway from our million dollar headline. Save yourself some money and your beneficiaries some pain by checking those beneficiary designations everywhere you have money, even under the bed. [01:10:37] Doug: Just because you’ve completed a will or a trust doesn’t mean you’re good to go. In many cases, what you write on your beneficiary designation at work supersedes anything in those estate documents. But what’s the biggest to do? I gotta head to the mall today for some new socks. I got a third date with Miss Michigan tonight, and I want to be ready. [01:10:57] Doug: I thanks to Hannah Cole for joining us today. You can find all things hannah@sunlighttax.com. We’ll also include links in our show notes at Stacking Benjamins dot com. This show is the Property of SB podcasts LLC, copyright 2024, and is created by Joe Salsey High. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. [01:11:21] Doug: You’ll find out about our awesome team at Stacking Benjamins dot com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah, and before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know. [01:11:39] Doug: This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s Mom’s Neighbor, Duggan. We’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.
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