Have you ever felt overwhelmed by your finances? Do you find yourself either making purchases as “retail therapy” or avoiding looking at your statements and online accounts? Or maybe, on the other end of the spectrum, you find yourself hoarding cash because you don’t know when the next “rainy day” is going to arrive? In all of these cases and more, you might be experiencing financial trauma, a topic that is the focus of today’s Stacking Benjamins live round table at FinCon 2024 in Atlanta, Georgia. Hosted by Joe Saul-Sehy and featuring licensed family and marriage therapist Wendy Wright, certified financial planner Lawrence Sprung, and Afford Anything’s Paula Pant, the discussion dives into the deep-seated emotional aspects of money. You’ll learn about the signs of financial trauma, such as neglecting finances, overspending, and hoarding, and how these behaviors can impact your life. The panel offers insights into addressing and overcoming these issues, emphasizing the importance of compassionate curiosity and seeking professional help when needed. Whether you’re living paycheck to paycheck or have a significant net worth, this episode will guide you on the path to better financial health and well-being.
RUN OF SHOW
- Opening Banter and Introduction
- Live from FinCon 2024
- Meet the Panelists
- Diving into Financial Trauma
- Signs of Financial Trauma
- Scarcity Mindset and Personal Stories
- Cultural and Individual Financial Trauma
- Judgment and Financial Secrecy
- Inherited Wealth and Emotional Struggles
- Behavioral Finance in Financial Planning
- Building Compassionate Financial Relationships
- Recognizing Financial Trauma: Hoarding
- Societal Views on Hoarding vs. Saving
- Personal Stories of Financial Extremes
- Balancing Financial Planning and Living in the Present
- Diagnosing Money Hoarding and Anxiety
- Steps to Address Financial Anxiety
- Exploring False Connections with Money
- The Importance of Financial Planning and Adjustments
- Tracking Spending and Financial Awareness
- Principles of Financial Therapy
- When to Seek Financial Therapy
- Conclusion and Resources
Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.StackingBenjamins.com/201
Enjoy!
Our Topic: Financial trauma
Live from the podcasting stage at FinCon 2024 in Atlanta, GA.
During our conversation, you’ll hear us mention:
- Financial trauma
- Financial therapy
- Scarcity mindset
- High net worth and money trauma
- Shame around money
- Emotional impact of money decisions
- Growth mindset vs. fixed mindset
- Judgment in personal finance
- Self-acceptance with money habits
- Acceptance of others’ financial journeys
- Family and social influences on money
- Importance of seeking outside input
- Role of new inputs in mindset change
- The concept of upgrading one’s thinking (“rebooting the system”)
- Influence of past experiences on financial behavior
- Effects of major life events (e.g., accidents, medical emergencies) on finances
- Hurricane or natural disaster impacts on financial well-being
- Gratefulness vs. financial abundance
- Using money as a tool, not just a status symbol
- Finding joy in life despite financial challenges
- Listening to financial stories on podcasts
- The power of storytelling in personal finance
- Importance of expert advice in financial growth
- Recognizing financial stress and its impact
- Being open to financial advice and perspectives
- FinCon as a source of community and support
- Overcoming money issues with therapy
- Indicators that financial therapy may be needed
- Being honest about financial struggles
- Social validation and peer influence on finances
- Curiosity in personal finance (e.g., journaling prompts)
- Empowering oneself to make better financial decisions
- Financial insecurity even among high earners
- Learning from high-profile financial experts
- How to know when money thoughts become overwhelming
- Separating “what you want” from financial expectations
- Talking about money with family and friends
- Mental health and money (an ongoing journey)
- Financial therapy resources available online
- Sharing financial struggles with others for support
Our Contributors
A big thanks to our contributors! You can check out more links for our guests below.
Wendy Wright
Another thanks to Wendy Wright for joining our contributors this week! Learn more about Wendy and her practice, Financial Therapy Association, by visiting Wendy Wright – Financial Therapy Association.
Learn more about and sign up for her program Healing Thru the Money and Food Connection by visiting Healing thru the Money and Food Connection.
Lawrence Sprung
Big thanks to Lawrence Sprung for joining us today. To learn more about Lawrence, visit his bio page at Mitlin Financial.
Grab yourself a copy of his book Financial Planning Made Personal: How to Create Joy And The Mindset for Success.
Paula Pant
Check Out Paula’s site and amazing podcast: AffordAnything.com
Follow Paula on Twitter: @AffordAnything
Mentioned in today’s show
- Die With Zero: Getting All You Can from Your Money and Your Life
- Start Thinking Rich: 21 Harsh Truths to Take You from Broke to Financial Freedom
Join Us on Monday!
Tune in on Monday as we kick off another Greatest Hits Week!
Miss our last show? Check it out here: When Your Funeral Budget Creaks…Our Halloween Special with Scott Mueller (SB1594).
Written by: Kevin Bailey
Episode transcript
That is right, Doug.
And I think people will know the second they hear my voice that you’re hearing right now.
A little too much karaoke.
Welcome back, everybody, to Friday.
Well, welcome to Friday.
Welcome back to the Stacking Benjamin Show.
I am Joe Salsi High.
And I’m super happy to have really what’s going to be a little different roundtable here.
Number one, we’re live in Atlanta, as Doug so eloquently mentioned.
But then also second, we’re going to talk about a little bit heavier topic than we usually do on our roundtable.
So let’s meet the crew.
We’ll start with a woman who at about 1 AM last night, I was singing Africa by Toto with at the top of my lungs.
Paula Pant is here.
We bless the rains down in Africa.
It’s going to take a lot to drag me away from you, Paula.
Oh.
What were we doing?
There is video evidence.
We need to bury that video.
Seemed like a good idea at the time.
Oh, it still seems like a good idea even now.
Absolutely.
You know it’s a better idea?
What’s that?
We’re hanging out with Wendy Wright.
Hello.
Financial therapist Wendy Wright here.
How are you?
I’m good.
I’m excited to be here.
You and I met a couple of years ago in Denver.
Sure did.
With your book signing.
It was absolutely fantastic.
And you’re like, I’m a financial therapist.
And I said, we got to get on that.
Heck yeah.
Which in Joe terms means let’s do it two years later.
I like it.
I like it.
That worked out with my schedule too.
So that’s good.
It was perfect.
You were here.
And I’m like, we got to do that.
When you said you were coming, I was so happy.
Because we really need to talk about this.
So I heard you telling the gentleman that I’m going to introduce here in a second, Larry, that there’s only about 50 of you, did you say, doing the work that you’re doing?
It’s not very many.
And there’s several hundred members of the Financial Therapy Association.
So I’m not dissing the ones that are therapists.
They’re licensed therapists doing financial therapy.
It’s a very small number.
How did you get into financial therapy versus bigger therapy?
Right, right.
Kind of by accident, kind of fell into it and googled it, basically.
I was already a therapist.
I was working in high level of care eating disorders.
It’s another long story.
But there’s a lot of healing in the money food connection, which happens to be the name of my book on that, workbook on it.
But I started noticing people were having a very parallel relationship with their money behaviors and thoughts.
And then I googled, has anyone else noticed this relationship between money and emotions?
And kind of bumped into– there was just a few people at that point.
I think the Klanses had just written some of their books.
The Financial Therapy Association had just been sort of gathering.
And this was about a decade ago.
So I just taught myself, began to do it, love it, seek genuine change in people.
So it’s fantastic.
It’s got to be exciting to see the change.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know what’s funny?
You googled financial therapist.
I googled, what is podcasting 13 years ago?
See?
Really?
This is how we start.
Oh, come on.
Had I googled it, I should have found, stay away.
Don’t do it.
Please don’t.
Yeah.
Red alert.
Another guy who probably Google podcasting.
He’s the host of the Mittle of Money Show.
Mr.
Lawrence Brung is here.
How are you, Larry?
Yeah, I am great.
Thanks for having me.
It’s a pleasure to be here.
I am super happy you could be here.
So what’s going on on the Mittle of Money Show?
Oh, you know, this ties in very well because about a third of our guests are mental health-related topics.
You know?
Sweet.
Being that I sat on the National Board for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention for about 14 years and still do a lot of great work with them, I talk about the three pillars– mental, physical, and financial health, and how those things play together.
And I think that I’m really excited about the conversation today.
For people that didn’t hear your first appearance on Stacking Vegemans, the word “Mittle” has a really cool genesis.
It does.
Yeah.
To everybody, because I’m like, what the hell is this Mittle thing?
Yeah, you and everybody else.
It’s the most asked question.
It’s not how much do I need to retire.
It’s what the hell does Mittle mean?
So we’re actually celebrating our 20th anniversary in business this month, which we’re pretty excited about.
But MIT came from my wife’s grandfather, Mitchell.
L-I-N was my mother, Linda.
And they happened to pass away within hours of each other.
And then a couple months later, I met my wife.
So it’s kind of crazy.
We kind of think that the two of them somewhere along their journey met each other, brought us together.
And when we were talking about launching the firm and kind of coming up with a name, these two people had such great values, such great intention, so well-liked.
Everything that you would want embedded in a firm, these two people had.
So we decided to use their names to name the firm.
Isn’t it cool?
That is so cool.
But much better story than, ah, we made it up.
Yeah.
Or we Googled it.
Or my last name and associates.
Like a lot of other people.
Nobody does that, right?
All right.
Wendy Wright is here.
Lauren Sprung is here.
Paula Pan’s here.
And you know what’s great about us being here together at FinCon?
What?
Is that we all get to help our listeners know that our Friday episodes are brought to you by State Farm.
Sweet.
Isn’t that wonderful?
If you’re a small business owner, it isn’t just your business.
It’s your life.
Whatever your business might be, you want someone who understands.
That’s where small business– that’s where State Farm, small business insurance comes in.
State Farm agents, they’re small business owners, too.
And know what it takes to help you personalize your policies for your small business needs.
Everybody ready?
Like a good neighbor.
State Farm is there.
Oh, you’re so good.
Thank you.
Not nearly as good as Toto, but we made it through.
I was expecting more out of that after the whole ramp up about the karaoke.
Talk to your local agent today.
All right.
We have a couple more sponsors that help make this show free for all of you.
We’re going to hear from them, and we’re off and running.
All right, 3, 2, 1.
Wendy’s here.
Lawrence here.
Paula’s here.
Let’s do this.
Music and out.
You know, Wendy made a good point before we hit record today.
We need to talk about– we’re just going to be chatting about this.
This is not therapy.
Yes.
We are not therapists, and you should go consult a person yourself versus just tune into Stacking Vegemans for your therapy.
Maybe some people need therapy from Stacking Vegemans.
I don’t know.
I don’t know what to do with that Doug guy.
All right, Wendy, let’s kick this off, because I have a couple pieces.
The first one is from therapist.com, and it helps us know when we’ve experienced financial trauma.
So when we think about financial trauma, what are some of the symptoms so we’d know that maybe we’re heading into a dark place?
Oh, yeah, such a good question.
Let me add, too, this may be a heavier conversation, so just prepare yourself as you’re listening.
But trauma is something that in therapy world, we can refer to it as big T trauma or little T trauma.
But in a very simplified definition, I say it’s something that happened to you your brain did not know what to do with.
So the brain then goes into whatever your natural coping styles are, which tend to, in some ways, go from either highly rigid to highly chaotic.
So if you’re finding yourself being really rigid around money or very chaotic around money, that could be a clue that there may be some trauma that has just not been worked through or named, because financial trauma naming it is still really, really new.
So a lot of people are struggling with it, but they don’t realize that’s where it’s coming from.
A lot of this discussion, what I was prepping for today online, it all, Larry, revolves around– I keep seeing the word scarcity over and over and over.
You have a scarcity mindset, which to Wendy’s point, that means I’m either very chaotic because it’s scarce, so I spend it right now.
Or it’s scarce, so I hoard it.
Yes, exactly.
Talk to me about scarcity and when you see scarcity in your practice.
Well, listen, I could share a personal anecdote.
My grandmother, who’s no longer with us, was born during the Great Depression.
And till the day she passed away, she never thought– it didn’t matter how much was in the bank account.
And she wasn’t very wealthy, but we could have printed out a statement showing she had a million dollars in the account, and she would have not believed it, and she would have held on to every dollar.
So much so, she didn’t want us even spending money for her care.
So I think that scarcity mindset is really real.
And depending upon what events lead up to that– in her case, it was the Depression.
Other people have that because of 2008.
They saw their parents go through the market crash, real estate debacle.
And scarcity mindset, not being able to spend or take care of yourself is really just as troubling as just spending it and fervorously.
It can have equally negative results in the end.
It’s funny, though.
I remember my parents talking about their parents and talking about, well, they’re a product of the Depression, where it doesn’t seem so much like it was trauma.
Maybe it was trauma.
It was traumatic for a lot of people, but it just seems, Paula, to be, well, this is just the way people are because they were a product of the Depression.
So quote, “They’re all that way.”
Is living through something like the Depression or even 2007, 2008, a bunch of people lost their jobs, right?
We saw good people, smart people.
People have been on the show, lost their homes.
People that weren’t stupid, they did all the right moves and they still lost their houses.
You think that’s trauma or is that just living through bad time?
Well, so I think what you’re asking about is the distinction between a cultural zeitgeist versus trauma.
And so the cultural zeitgeist is broad.
It’s cultural.
It’s depending on the time and place in which you are raised.
There’s a certain social context that governs and shapes our understanding with money.
And so 2008 is an example, but I’m thinking even more broadly, the habits and attitudes around money in one country might differ from another country or inside a given cultural group, a given group with a shared ethnicity, right?
Those cultures, those attitudes, those norms, that’s the sociological fabric that we’re talking about.
But then in addition to that, at the individual level, there’s the trauma that can stem from getting hit with a lawsuit or watching a parent or a grandparent go through a bankruptcy or being in a bad car accident, any of those things that happen at the individual level.
It sounds like Wendy, what Paul is talking about is there’s the thing that happens and there’s what you do with it.
Absolutely.
The event happens.
That’s not the trauma.
The trauma is what internally you do with that event that happened.
Yeah, and I will say the event is the trauma too.
So you’ve got the– the depression’s a good example.
It was traumatic.
There was immediate loss, if you think of finances, of money, of security, those kind of things.
And then everybody reacted to it in a different way.
It’s very much, if you think of if a family goes through a divorce and all the siblings tend to react in their own way because we all have our own wiring and how we cope with something that was not expected.
So it’s really helpful to look at the behaviors with– not in judgment, with a lot of neutrality.
Like, I have 10 principles of financial therapy.
And we can talk about some of those after we sort of name some of the problems that show up.
Because there’s often– it’s very hidden because it’s in the brain.
But it’s like intrusive, repetitive thought patterns that you can’t stop.
You can’t get a break from.
It’s hearing someone say, debt is bad.
And then that’s all you think of.
It’s moving into very dichotomous thinking.
It’s either all or nothing.
Things like that that begin to show up can be a little different for each person that goes through a big thing.
It’s funny you said looking at this without judgment.
But you know, Larry, being in the financial planning field for a long time, like dollar bills aren’t emotional.
But we attach emotion to the money.
A lot of it.
I mean, I don’t know if you remember the saying, but what’s the old saying that when my neighbor loses their job, it’s a recession.
When I lose my job, it’s a depression.
Absolutely.
It’s all about that perspective about what you’re looking at.
And it’s not the dollars are meaningless.
We talk all the time about dollars being able to provide joy in your life.
Here we’re talking about the opposite, where dollars may go away.
And we’re all wired differently in how we react to those situations really determines on how not only we’re going to react and handle those going forward, like Wendy and Paula pointed out, but we’re also making direct impressions on our kids and grandkids potentially on how they’re going to react later on.
So we have to be mindful of that and put it in perspective.
I know it’s easier said than done.
But yeah, it’s not really about the dollars.
It’s about the reaction to it.
Well, it’s very easy for us to get judgey, not just about our money, but about other people’s money.
And I would think if I’ve got a bunch of people being judgey about me, like I can feel when people are really judging me, it seems like it’s super hard, Paula, to back away from that.
And I think that compounds the stress of the experience.
Because you’ve got the norms and attitudes around money that might already be a little bit dysfunctional.
Then on top of that, you’ve got the trauma that you went through, some inflection point that your brain didn’t know how to handle.
And then in addition to all of that, you start handling it in a rigid or a chaotic way.
And then you’re subject to judgment, which it’s invalidating.
It demonstrates a lack of empathy.
It’s isolating.
It just compounds the stress of what you’re going through.
Because now not only are you dealing with that traumatic inflection point, but you’re also dealing with subsequent shame and judgment.
Domino, domino, domino.
And they’re falling on top of each other.
And it’s like a hole you can’t get out of.
And to your point, you have people on the outside looking in, counting your dollars and cents, and saying, oh, wait a minute.
Why are they having a– why are they upset?
Why are they angry?
They have so much.
But they don’t really know what’s under the hood.
So it’s completely judgmental, in my opinion.
It has to be really looked at from a full perspective.
And then what do you do?
When you feel all of that, you start to hide it.
And that is a big thing, where it’s avoided.
It’s not talked about.
That’s why it’s not talked about.
Because talking about it, it’s like, oh, if I bring this up, they’re going to see everything.
So it’s super scary.
So the secret behaviors really start to kick in.
Or the hyper focus on it, where every time you get near a napkin, you write down all your numbers.
Because you just have to like, let me do it again.
Let me do it again.
Let me make sure they’re there.
And you don’t trust an app, because you’ve got to back it up four times, things like that.
It’s a miserable experience.
Until I became a financial planner, I never realized how little we knew about what was going on under the hood to use your comment, Larry, with other people’s money.
I had no idea.
And it was so funny, because what people present, as you know, what people present versus what’s really going on, were almost always two different things.
Like the millionaire next door thing that we see, were the richest people, were the people that you would never point out in a crowd.
And the person who’s bling central completely broke.
Like that blew me away.
And that’s not trauma.
That’s just to the point that– Could be a trauma response.
Good point.
But also to be a little less judgy, because you don’t know.
You have no idea.
But sometimes you need to know.
So if you’ve got financial trauma, you don’t really know what’s normal yet.
I’m using the air quotes on normal.
So you’re thinking about this, and you’re like, what is it?
So you do a lot of comparison.
And when you compare out of shame, you always lose.
But you have to.
It’s almost like you’re addicted to comparison to try to figure out where to go.
That’s a good point.
Number one question I used to get, I’m sure, in your practice, Larry, you get it all the time.
Drove me crazy.
How am I doing versus everybody else?
Yeah, which is– I don’t even understand that question.
And my response to them is, well, who do you want to be like?
Who’s everybody else?
Is it your neighbor that needs $50,000 a year to live on?
Or your neighbor that needs $250,000?
And do you even know which neighbor is which?
I’m going to compare you with Warren Buffett.
You suck.
Warren is kicking your ass.
There you go.
Let’s walk through some of the signs of financial trauma.
You neglect your finances.
Have you ever gone through– have you ever had a time where you neglected your finances?
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.
You do not see once again, you notice going onto the hood.
There’s no way Paula’s ever had this happen.
Oh, yeah.
Really.
I resonated with that so much because I didn’t realize that that neglect, that the ostrich, bury your head in the sand, don’t look at it, don’t think about it.
I didn’t realize that that neglect was actually a symptom of financial trauma.
And so to your earlier point about shame, I assumed it was a character defect.
Maybe I’m just a terrible person.
Thank you for saying that.
Right.
Right?
And yeah, then it was in reading this particular article from therapist.com that I was like, wait a second.
Neglect is a– oh my– and then I could connect the dots a little bit better.
Nice.
I thought about that when– and you and I, on a forward anything a couple of months ago, did kind of a repeat deep dive of my personal financial situation.
But that was back in the dark days, Wendy, I was like, if I don’t look at it, it will probably get better.
Which by the way, believe it or not, I know you’re going to find the shocking one.
Oh gosh.
That was not a solution.
Oh my gosh.
Let me kick that out of my notes.
I could see Wendy in a session going, have you ever thought about not looking at it?
Like that would– It might work.
Yes.
But it’s funny because you neglect your finances.
And second is you often overspend.
How is overspending a sign of trauma?
Oh gosh.
Yeah, because it’s a sign of being disconnected to yourself.
It is often this idea of never feeling like you– you really don’t feel like you own your money.
So it really doesn’t matter what happens.
But you know you need quote unquote this thing, whatever it is that you’re buying that day.
So you’re so disconnected from the reality of the numbers because you can’t look because it’s scary.
You believe you’re bad with it.
And I mean, I’m so glad you said that.
Because probably almost every client that I’ve had does believe that their DNA is that they’re bad with money.
And so that’s– Wait, that it’s genetic.
Some kind of genetic– Exactly.
Therefore, it’s not fixable.
Right?
Yeah.
I’m just broken.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And they probably got that message from a lot of people.
Like, oh, you did that?
Blah, blah, blah.
So it’s really– I love that you shared that because that is so true.
And I think a lot of people probably nodded their heads and be like, oh my gosh, me too.
So really seeing that, then the overspending comes from– if you don’t know whose money it is or where the money’s going to go, then you just buy things.
And you buy them based on a lot of decision-making points.
Like, I talk about a decision-making matrix.
And you do it based on if it’s a certain price.
Then it was a good deal.
Then you can tell people, that was a good deal.
And hopefully, they’ll give you two points for being good with money, even though you know it’s a lie.
So you just keep throwing stuff out over and over and over and over again, trying to get a certain return, because you don’t have any other way to validate your money life yet.
That’s funny.
I thought of a very specific family member– Yes. –when you said that.
Who does this all the time?
Mm-hmm.
And unfortunately, I know more than I should about what’s going on under the hood.
And they are always trying to win points about, no, I’m really good.
No, I’m really good.
Right.
And there’s some big time stuff going on under that hood, and that they don’t want to recognize, which is sad.
That sounds a little judgey on my part.
Well, not if you’re saying it with compassion.
Are you saying it with compassion?
Heck no.
No.
No.
I’m going to judge that on you.
Very much with compassion.
Well, you know what’s funny is, I’m far enough removed that I just haven’t– I just don’t address it.
You just kind of see it from afar, and I feel bad for this person.
So another piece of this, then– well, even before I move on, it seems like two.
And Larry, I would see this back at my practice, and it’s been a long time since I was a financial planner.
But it also feels like, with what Wendy’s saying, the overspending to me also feels like a little bit of a dopamine hit.
You know what I mean?
I’ll get this little rush, and this rush will make it OK.
Even though I know the world is not going my way, for the next three minutes, when I press this button on Amazon, I get this great feeling that I just did this thing.
Yeah.
I mean, we have a couple of folks that we work with, some not any longer, because they’ve overspent through their savings.
And along the way, we’ve had those conversations with them saying, hey, there’s an underlying issue here.
You keep saying that you’re not going to need money, but you keep calling us every month, right?
And it’s problematic, and we try to address it as much as we can, bring in proper outside resources to help them.
But until they’re willing to really address that problem, it’s difficult, right?
And where we see it a lot more is when it’s money that’s been inherited from a parent.
And all of a sudden, they have this whirlwind of additional monies that they’ve inherited, and they haven’t worked hard for it.
And they’re like, well, I deserve this.
My parents would have wanted me to have this.
And it’s like Wendy said, do you try to almost justify the means to why I’m spending the money, to make yourself feel better about it?
But again, you have to work on that trauma to figure that out.
Otherwise, you’re not going to be able to solve that problem.
You’re going to probably spend through that money before you end up really needing it at some point.
Larry, I’ll be bold enough to say that a receiving wealth can be traumatic.
Yes.
It is a trauma, because especially if it wasn’t talked about, so you didn’t know it was coming, you don’t know what to do with it, and then you feel stupid.
So it’s very scary.
I just did a series on wealth transfer dynamics where we talked about that, and I gave a couple of vignettes of different kind of character summaries of how that impacted them.
Yeah, and they also are tying this newfound wealth to the death of whoever, right?
Which is a grieving process in its own.
And to some degree, I think they feel like– and you could probably correct me if I’m wrong, Wendy– they feel like by spending this money, it’s bringing them closer to this lost person, and they feel like there’s still that connection.
I bought this car, reminds me of mom and dad every time I drive it or something along those lines.
Can I flip it too to make it even more of a struggle, is if the money came from an abuser, then you really don’t know what to do with it.
It’s super scary, and you have to separate.
The financial therapy can really help you separate from that relationship and figure out what to do with it.
Wow, because again, it’s just a dollar.
The dollar is not emotional, but where the dollar came from, from an abuser, I can’t imagine.
Yes.
Just now I have all this money.
You feel guilty as all get out.
Or angry, maybe, because often with abusers, we never get a chance to tell them or express the anger because they close that off.
So you’re sitting with this grief and anger and don’t know what to do, and you can’t talk to anybody about it.
Because if you’re like, I have this few million dollars and I don’t know what to do with it, most people will be like, lucky you.
That’s a hate for you that you have that problem.
Such a horrible problem.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Tough.
You know, Larry, I want to pause on something that you were talking about a second ago, because a lot of our Stacky Benjamin’s family, they don’t realize how much the CFP program has really changed over the years.
When I was an advisor, all I knew how to do is present the math over and over.
When somebody’s burning through their money, I’d just say, listen, Paula, this math ain’t math.
You are going to run out.
And because it was traumatic, Wendy, like there was– you know what I mean?
You couldn’t get through, even though the math is the math.
And they knew it wasn’t going to work out.
You knew it wasn’t going to work out, but they weren’t going to change the behavior.
I’m loving seeing how the certified financial planning curriculum more and more is leaning into behavior, it looks like, as an outsider.
Well, I think that’s really a huge differentiator for financial professionals.
I really do.
I think, to your point, the math is the math.
But there’s a lot of stuff under the hood, as we’ve been saying, and to the math, that has to be addressed and talked about.
And really, that’s a big part of what we’re doing, is not necessarily figuring out– it’s not all about how much money they need, how much money they need to accumulate.
It’s really about, what is this money going to do for you?
And what do you want it to do for you?
Use it as a tool.
And that behavioral finance component is hugely beneficial.
And I know we at Midland are really leaning into it, because it’s something that our families that we work with are leaning into and looking for guidance on from us.
Yeah, you’re not going to be a therapist.
But you can at least get partway there so you can have this– Bring them in.
Yeah, compassionate relationship, where you’re not across the table from them, you’re alongside them, sitting at the table, and able to bring in a therapist or someone else.
Exactly.
Paula, the third sign here of financial trauma, it says you start hoarding.
And it’s funny, because I looked at this.
So I’m like, wait a minute.
You neglect your finances.
OK, I get that.
You often overspend.
I get that.
Well, wait a minute.
And I hoard.
It’s like, well, I’m damned if I go this way.
Right.
And I’m also if I go that way.
I’m like, this seems to be– when I read this, I’m like, is this everybody?
Well, I think the point it’s making is that any type of extreme behavior is dysfunctional.
And so we all, to an extent– there are certain healthy parameters in which we all have slightly– there are some people who are just more prone to hanging on to stuff.
There are certain people who are more prone to being a little bit neglectful or avoidant.
There are certain people who are a little bit more prone to easy spending.
Like, there’s a certain– almost like an Overton window, right?
There’s a certain window in which that is still in– it reflects a tendency, but it’s within the bounds of healthy.
And then anything outside of those bounds, it could express in any multitude of different ways.
But when it becomes too extreme, that’s when it’s just– it starts to hold you back in serious ways.
I want to expand upon that, because after the break, what I want to ask Paula is a big follow-up to that question.
We’re in the middle of a place where there’s a ton of money nerds.
And there may be some mores involved with hoarding.
There may be some– like, we high-five each other because we’re hoarders.
Exactly.
Right?
I want to talk about society.
Because we call it saving.
Yeah.
So when does it become hoarding?
I want to talk about that right after the break.
We’ve got a couple more sponsors that make this free.
No trivia today, guys.
This is not a trivial subject, so we’re going to keep the trivia out today.
Doug, you’re on the sidelines.
We’ll be right back.
Awesome.
Everybody good?
Yeah.
OK.
Now, after we talk about socially here and hoarding, then let’s start getting into solutions.
What are the things we do?
All right, here we go.
3, 2, 1.
I’m super happy.
I wish my voice made it.
Was here, but I don’t know.
You get the sultry Joe today.
Hey.
Here we go.
Welcome.
It’s Joe Barrywhite.
No.
Before the break, Paula, we were talking about hoarding.
And I feel like a lot of the time when I go to fire movement events especially, there is this part of this movement, this financial movement that’s like hoarding is badassery.
To use Mr.
Money Mustache’s term.
Even though he never said, just to be clear, he’s never said hoarding is badassery.
And he would fight that.
But I feel like a lot of people interpret fire as hoarding equals good.
Right.
Well, first I want to make a distinction between hoarding money versus hoarding possessions, physical objects.
So in hoarding money, the ultimate money hoarder was Ebenezer Scrooge, that fictional character from “A Christmas Carol.”
He was very, very wealthy, but he refused to spend a dime to the point where he was freezing and wouldn’t turn on the heat.
And a person who’s openly talked about doing that is mad scientist, Brandon Ganch, who’s also very well known within the fire movement.
A good friend of mine and of Mr.
Money Mustache’s.
And he has talked about how when he was on the path to financial independence, he would keep the thermostat down to very, very cold.
Yeah, it was freezing.
He was wearing puffer jackets indoors, just shivering, even though he had a software engineer salary, because he just didn’t want to pay for the heat.
So we see that type of Ebenezer Scrooge behavior in real life.
And Brandon has talked openly about how that’s one of his regrets.
He said that publicly many times, that he looks back on that and says, man, I should have given myself permission to turn the heat up five additional degrees.
That’s why there’s this continuing obsession now.
And for people that don’t spend a lot of time online, you don’t see it as much as I do.
But there’s this continuing obsession with Bill Perkins.
Bill Perkins’ book, Die with Zero, because the whole point is it’s not about more money.
It’s about more life.
Right, exactly, exactly.
But look at the all or nothing thinking there.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and it’s the question of what’s it all for.
Yes.
Right.
You know, there’s– with the fire movement, there can be– yeah, and there are many great things about the fire movement, which is why I’ve been part of it for so long.
But there can be a tendency among some people to defer living into the future.
So there’s that distinction between planning for the future versus living in the future.
And there can be that tendency to just live in the future.
And I think you have to be very careful with that.
And personally, I went through this myself.
My mom was diagnosed with cancer in her 30s, died at the age of 47.
And I talk about this quite often when we talk about families and bringing joy and using the money as a tool to bring them joy in life.
There’s got to be a fine line between saving for retirement and enjoying life today and getting those experiences.
Because not everybody has afforded the ability to live till 80, 90, or even make whatever the quote, unquote, their retirement goals are.
So you have to figure out what is that happy medium.
And I think, like we’ve talked about, hoarding and overspending, those are two signs of the extremes.
Really, we’ve got to help people to kind of move towards the middle so that they can do both those things, enjoy life today and have what they need for the future at the same time.
Wendy, is hoarding harder to diagnose?
Hoarding money?
Not– Hoarding money. –obviously possessions, you see it.
But I would think that finding somebody that’s hoarding money and deferring life, I mean, that seems very defensible.
Like, what if I live for a long time?
I think I’m going to need this later.
Yeah.
Well, first of all, I’m glad we’re talking about it.
Because I can bet you a bunch of listeners right now have never heard saving called hoarding.
So when does it become hoarding?
It’s really important to notice.
Because it’s not really talked about very much.
And there’s no diagnosis for it.
But I think when you look at the energy around the money and the energy around spending, like what happens if you feel– do you feel threatened?
Do you feel like you lost the game if you spend it?
Kind of what comes up for you around that?
And looking at how anxious are you about it?
How much of your– one of the things I’ll ask people, too, is what percentage of your thoughts are given over to money at some point?
Like, if they’re highly anxious about it, and they’re like, oh, I think about it all the time, they run their balances, they can’t let it go, these are signs that there may be some hoarding energy going on.
But you approach it with a lot of compassion.
Because you want to help them identify– there’s some soothing in the hoarding.
There’s some soothing in writing the numbers over and over and over again.
There’s something going on there that if you don’t replace that soothing with something else, they can’t let go of it.
So that’s why we approach it with that compassion.
Well, let’s stick with you for a second.
Let’s get on the other side of this.
Which is, OK, I’m afraid to look at my money.
I don’t want to look at my money.
Like, what’s our first step?
Yeah.
Well, I hate to say this, but I’m going to say it anyway.
The first step is to take a deep breath.
Because it really calms your nervous system.
Like, when you come up and you notice, right now, if you listen to or hear someone talk about money, and they use the money word, and then your body seizes up, or your breathing changes, or maybe then you start going on and watching Instagram and scrolling, because you just can’t even approach it.
So noticing that coming into that breath is really important.
And then we begin to talk about it.
So a couple of the principles that I use of financial therapy, because still, there’s a lot of what the heck is this, that’s still very, very new for people.
One of them is to start to approach it with compassionate curiosity and zero judgment.
That usually changes the game enough to make some change.
Because no longer are you good or bad based on your money behavior.
You get to just look at, oh, OK, I like that I do this.
I don’t like that I do this.
Like, shifting that dialogue around it and softening it up is a great place to start.
So one of the first things I give people is track your transactions with thoughts and feelings.
Remember when we used to have checks that we would write, and then we would write in there?
What are those?
I know, really, those paper things.
But most apps give you a place for comments, too.
It’s that memo line where you put, what are you thinking?
What are you feeling at this moment?
And just don’t judge it.
Just notice it.
And then begin to see– because one of the first prompts I give people as well is what I was thinking about when you were talking to Larry, too, is what story do you want your money to tell?
And then we start talking about that.
That helps you begin to own it and step into it.
>> I want to pause there for just a second, though, Wendy, because, Paula, it’s funny what Wendy’s saying.
I mean, not funny, ha-ha.
Not funny, ha-ha.
But it’s how systems and processes are things that you and I focus on a lot.
Like, how do I systematically think about this?
And what I find interesting about what Wendy’s suggesting is, is instead of defending where you are, I love the idea of getting curious, because how often do– whether we’re talking about trauma today, we’re talking about getting better at work or negotiating, whatever the topic might be– we instead now– I love this idea of curiosity, because now we’re at Carol Dweck and growth mindset.
I’m no longer defending my habit.
I’m curious, and I’m like, how can I grow from this?
>> Well, and I think what I love about that practice of writing down thoughts and feelings associated with transactions is it develops self-awareness.
Because so often, we are not consciously aware of how a particular transaction associates with a given thought or feeling.
And different transactions are going to have different levels of intensity.
If I buy windshield wiper blades, I don’t feel a particular way about needing windshield wiper blades.
>> You don’t?
>> Yeah, well, I mean, I don’t have a car, so it would be kind of a strange question.
>> Well, then– >> I have a car analogy.
You brought cars in.
>> No, then you seriously would ask yourself, what am I doing?
What am I doing at Napo right now?
>> Yes.
Why am I a-sar-gware?
[LAUGHTER] >> But for other purchases, kitchen sponges, I don’t really have a feeling.But there are going to be other purchases that have more emotion associated with it.
So that development of self-awareness of not just what am I feeling, but also how intensely am I feeling it, clues you into perhaps things that are coming up for you that you might not even consciously yet know?
>> Yeah.
>> How often, when you examine these things, Wendy, do you find these false connections people have?
And let me tell you what I’m talking about.
I had a client that was a hypnotist.
And I wanted to know how she worked, what she did.
So I went to her for three sessions about weight management, right?
And really, why do I love to eat food that is just freaking horrible, right?
And what was interesting was session one was OK.
Session two was better.
And I started to feel these memories.
Session three, I got these really strong feelings.
And let me tell you, this was super interesting.
I had this vision.
And really, I don’t know about hypnosis, but I do know very deep relaxation so you can go back in your past and see these things.
And again, getting curious, right?
So my brain’s getting curious.
I’m looking back in the past.
And I remember this scene of my mom, my brother, and I in the car.
And it’s lunchtime at General Motors.
And we go and we get my dad.
And we go to this drive-in restaurant called Dog & Suds, where we’re eating chili dogs, french fries, and root beer.
And I realized I now associate McDonald’s with beautiful family time.
And that is, as you know, a false thing.
And I still do, by the way.
Every single time I go to a fast food restaurant, which now I control myself, but I still do, when I go there, I still get this feeling.
I’m like, this is not love.
Me and the Big Mac, this is not a love affair.
Yeah, but it’s telling you there’s something you’re craving.
And you have the insight now that it’s not the food.
And that’s really powerful.
Because then you want to replace that with family time, with memories.
It’s got to be the same thing, though, with money.
People are attaching these things falsely to things that aren’t true.
Yeah, absolutely.
We follow that thread.
And when we start following the thread without judging it, the same kind of thing happens.
About three or four sessions in, when they’ve been doing this between sessions, then they begin to see and make those connections of, OK, this is kind of what happened.
Thinking about a car, like if you put gas in the car, which Paul, I know you’ve probably done this in a while, but we can go try.
Let’s say you put windshield wipers in the car.
Yeah.
There can be a lot of reaction to something that feels very mundane to some people.
But let’s say you have a lot of scarcity.
And the price the day before was $0.10 cheaper.
And then all you do is beat yourself up all day long because you didn’t get it at the same time.
But what you’re really looking for here is validation that you’re OK.
So it’s like a false connection.
Like, oh, how much I pay for gas is going to say if I’m OK if a person?
No.
But we’re looking for, oh, you’re really struggling here to know that you’re just OK the way you are.
You’re good enough already.
We had a family that we were working with for many years.
We tried to get her to do a financial plan with us.
And she wouldn’t– years.
Then finally we got her to do it.
And we were like, what was the hang up?
She goes, I didn’t want you to tell me I could never retire.
I’m frightened of that.
So I said, all right, well, let’s get started.
Let’s see.
Let’s be curious.
And let’s explore this.
Ultimately, she was going to be completely fine once we did the plan.
And once we did it, she was like– excuse me.
She had a complete sigh of relief in that moment that she was like, I should have done this five, six, seven years ago.
I would have felt much better because I’ve been worried about this for a long time.
And we just thought that she was just doing other things.
But it was really just a delay factor.
And I think that’s an approach that a lot of people take.
Well, let me twist that around, though, Larry.
What if you guys had worked through all the numbers and her fear was justified?
That’s a great point.
That justifies us doing that even earlier, because the earlier we do those kind of things and evaluate and take a look, the more opportunity we have to make adjustments.
We wouldn’t have been five years later to make those adjustments.
So the hope is that if she was in that moment not on track, we would have had to really work hard and expeditiously in the shorter amount of time to work towards where she wanted to be or work with her to adjust what her expectations were in retirement or whatever her future expectations were or are.
And that’s really all you can do is change some of those inputs.
I like that you brought up adjustment process, because that’s another one of my principles, is a plan is only as good as the adjustment process.
And we work on the adjustment process before we build a plan.
Because if there’s not an ability– it’s like saying, hey, we’re going to look at your retirement numbers.
And here’s what will happen if there’s not enough money.
And here’s what will happen if there’s enough.
I already know there’s hope on the other side of the plan that I can adjust it.
And that is hugely relieving for a lot of people, because they feel like– for some reason, we feel like the plan is a static data point in time.
And that’s all it can be.
And most of us, because there’s a lot of fear around it energetically.
So that’s good.
Well, we see a lot of issues.
The biggest issue we have with putting plans together– and you might have seen this, Joe, when you were doing it– is people, when you ask them for their budget or their income expectations in retirement, they severely underestimate what they’re spending today.
We find as low as probably 10% to 20%.
We’ve seen as high as 100%, because when they tell us– Well, wait a minute.
When you say 100%, you mean they’re spending double what they think they’re spending.
Yes.
It’s crazy, because they’ll tell us x, right?
And then we take a look at their tax returns and where they’re taking money from in addition to their salaries and their earnings.
And we’re like, wait a minute.
How is your spending x when your tax returns say you’re taking home this, you’re taking extra money out of your account?
It’s really looking like 2x.
And they just don’t want to put that two and two together, even though the math justifies it.
It doesn’t lie.
You just walked into the shame bubble.
There you go.
So it’s a difficult process to help people see that and work through that.
It’s so interesting.
This is why I love tracking my spending.
And when I was horrible with money, I didn’t.
I didn’t want to look at it.
You were talking about Paula.
I didn’t want to look at it.
And man, when I started tracking my spending and now using– I mean, it’s why I think– and I think you also asked me to sponsor your show, Monarch.
The reason why– I don’t care if you use Monarch or whatever you use, but I love the fact that I have these notifications, and it’s always right in front of me.
And I’ve got that heartbeat, because I can’t imagine now– don’t get me wrong.
Back in the day, Larry, I was probably always spending– 30% to 50% more than I thought I was, because I was doing, Wendy, what you were talking about with the back of the envelope.
I was writing it down, but I’m writing down all these numbers that aren’t true.
And now I got the truth right in front of me all the time, have the heartbeat.
Such a first step.
Wendy, you had some– you keep talking about principles.
I know you have 10 of these.
I do.
Can we walk through them?
Let’s do a couple of them, yeah, because I like to explain it, too.
Yes.
No, I don’t want you to explain any of them.
Don’t explain them.
OK.
Then A, B, and C.
Thank you, bye.
Yeah, so plus I don’t know them by heart.
So that was also me covering up that piece of shame that I don’t know them all by heart.
Well, let’s do this.
But you see some of them– well, that’s fair, and that’s fine.
Let’s talk about some of the ones that you see all the time.
Yeah, yeah.
Let’s talk about the good, bad with money, because that one comes up pretty consistently and leads to a lot of different behaviors.
So if we take out the good and bad and we neutralize everything about money, then we can begin to shift.
And we shift that dialogue, because good and bad, often when we feel like we’re bad with money, we pick out people who are good with money.
But we’re picking that based on the car they drive.
That doesn’t mean they’re good with money, or whatever they make, or what job they’re in, and this kind of thing.
And like the millionaire next door kind of thing, you don’t really know.
So recognizing that, taking out that all or nothing language is really empowering for people.
Is that– what do you do with that, Paula?
What do you mean?
I mean, I’m thinking to myself, I’m like, OK, how do I not judge, but not is the negative, right?
So how do I flip that positive?
And I go, OK, what do I do?
Well, I listen to podcasts where I hear more stories about what’s really going on under the hood, right?
OK, that seems self-serving right now.
But also, I read books.
I find experts.
I find– I do– I realize there’s something beyond the surface.
You know what I mean?
I’m trying to put this together.
What do I do with what she just said?
Well, I mean, she talked about doing away with the framework of being good or bad with money, which is, A, judgmental, and B, it reflects fixed mindset.
So I think where we’re going with that, to flip that to positive, is being accepting and embracing a growth mindset, right?
And so that, I think, is directionally where that is headed, is, all right, how do I accept where I am now and accept everybody around me, friends, neighbors, family, strangers, for where each person is on their own journey?
And they are reflecting all of the inputs that they have experienced.
And you accept yourself.
You accept others.
And then you also accept the idea that you and everyone can grow.
And you just expanded– even your body language, which nobody can see, but your arms went out.
You expanded the story that can happen with money when you put it in that kind of context instead of these two data points, good or bad.
So that was lovely.
Oh, thank you.
I was– well, I’m glad you point that out, because the best stories, as you know, Larry, as a podcaster, is talking about a fish this big that nobody can see.
Welcome to Audio Podcasting.
Yes.
I have a face for podcasting.
Wendy, how do we know when this trauma has gotten bad enough that we probably need to see somebody?
Yeah, I would say– I often will say, OK, financial therapy is the intersection of money and emotions.
Have you ever cried about money?
And then 90% of the audience will raise their hand.
OK, well, you could probably benefit from talking about it.
I think if you feel like– first of all, does it consume your thoughts more than you want it to?
So there’s not like a too much or a data point or anything.
Is it more than you want it to?
Is it taking over?
Do you make decisions based on everything other than what you want?
Do you know what you want?
How does that feel?
Do you feel like you can talk about it?
If you can’t talk about money with anybody, even yourself, then that is a place where financial therapy can be really helpful, just to help begin to open up a dialogue and begin to calm your nervous system around it.
So those are some of the clues, some of the cues that can tell people how they’re doing with it or if it’s time to talk about it.
It also strikes me, Larry, that while I think it would be easier to feel trauma if money is very scarce and you’re living paycheck to paycheck, people with high net worth, I think, still have money trauma as well is what I got out of this conversation.
I agree.
You have people who have complete scarcity but love their life, right?
And they embrace it, and they’re grateful for what they have, however small that is.
And then you have others that have abundant wealth in our eyes, but are not really living life in a way that is beneficial.
And all they have is the bank account.
And I think that there’s problems with each one of those.
And that’s why we have to figure out how do we make it work for you in a way that you’re getting the joy out of your life and at the same time using money as a tool in a proper way.
And I’m also struck, Paula, by this phrase a mentor told me a long time ago, which is the same brain that got me into this hole is not the brain that’s going to get me out.
>> Right, exactly.
Which is another way of saying that you need to reboot the system, update your thinking, like upgrade the software.
Because the inputs– I talked earlier about your reflection of all of these inputs.
Those inputs are dynamic.
Every single day we are receiving new inputs.
This conversation we’re having right now is a new input.
>> We’re here at FinCon specifically to get outside input into all of our businesses.
>> Right, exactly, exactly.
And so with what we were talking about earlier in terms of– financial trauma is not just scarcity.
It could be that you had a very sudden input of being in a car accident or getting a medical diagnosis and then getting an insurance rejection.
Or maybe your home was affected by the hurricane.
And again, and maybe there were– there are all of these things that can happen that, regardless of if you’re a high– even if you’re a high earner or high net worth, those can be incredibly jarring.
And you need those new inputs to be able to figure out your way out of it.
I do find it interesting that I feel like for a lot of people, they do think.
They’re like, no, no, no, I can– you know, once I’m done screwing this up completely, I’ll bring in somebody else.
You know what I mean?
And I feel like there’s a lot of shame.
But when you look at why we’re here, it really getting into your head with therapy can be so good.
Well, unfortunately, guys, we got to leave the conversation here.
And I hope that if you do need help that you and you’re listening to this, please go talk to somebody.
And you know what?
There is no shame in talking to somebody.
I mean, truly, again, FinCon is not therapy.
But we’re here to talk to other people and get outside input.
If you need input or your friends keep telling you you need input, just go talk to somebody.
So let’s find out what all of you are doing.
Wendy, I’m going to have you go last if you don’t mind, because I want people to be able to take down exactly how to get a hold of you and your resources.
But Paula Pant, what the heck’s happening at the Afford Anything podcast?
So on the Afford Anything podcast, on the topic of financial therapy, we recorded six hours of interview– Shut up.
Yes.
We’ve broken it up into three episodes.
But we recorded six hours of interview with Dr.
Brad Klontz, who was a very well-known financial therapist, and his co-author, Adrian Brambila.
And so we recorded– we spent a full day recording six hours of interview.
We chopped it up into three different episodes.
And we’re running it on the Afford Anything podcast as a three-part series.
So it’s both on the audio podcast, which you can get on Spotify, or Apple Podcasts, or any podcast player.
And also the visual of it is on YouTube if you want more visuals associated with that.
Let me actually clarify.
Hold on.
Steve, don’t put this in the show.
But I don’t think he’s a therapist.
I think he’s a behavioral economist.
No, no, he’s a therapist.
Brad?
Yeah.
Brad.
I know he wrote the book on financial therapy.
He’s a therapist, not a behavioral economist.
OK.
All right.
Anyway, it’s fine.
3, 2, 1.
And that’s at the Afford Anything podcast.
Yes.
We’re a finer podcast.
We’re the finest podcast.
Speaking of finer podcast, Larry, I’m so glad that you were able to sit with us today.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
And you know what’s funny?
You and I found out two days ago that we both love Disney a little bit.
Yes, we do.
Yes, we do.
It’s been a family favorite.
And everybody listening to this is rolling their freaking eyes at the same time because they’re like, shut up, Joe.
Joe, shut up.
But anyway, well, what’s happening at the “Mittle of Money” show?
Yeah, I mean, we’re continuing having some great guests.
We’ve had Dr.
Brad Klontz on the show, Dr.
Daniel Crosby.
Mental health is a big component of what we talk about.
We had Ashley Kwame.
Hopefully, maybe we could have Wendy on soon as well.
And it’s been a great journey because I’ve gotten to speak with so many great people like yourself, like Paula, on the show.
And we’re just continuing to go.
We’re not as long standing as you guys are.
Only four years in, 200-summon episodes.
But still, we’re looking forward to continuing the educational component and helping people in every way we can.
They’re great shows.
It’s always a lot of fun.
You can tell that your t-shirt says, what did you do today that brought you joy?
I could tell– you’re just entertaining yourself on your show, I think, half the time.
Pretty much, yeah.
I mean, listen, that’s what it’s all about.
I’m talking to people that– people ask me what the ROI is.
I’m like, I don’t care about the ROI.
I’m talking to some great people, having some great conversation.
I literally spoke to an entrepreneur the other day, episodes not live yet.
He dropped out of school at 14 years of age, grew a business from $0 to $100 million in revenue, and exited at the business at $419 million.
Wow.
How does that not get you juiced?
That’s crazy.
Wendy Wright, thank you for helping us with this topic.
Obviously, having you here was huge for us today.
And I hope we helped a lot of people.
But how can people find you?
Yeah, I hope we help people too.
So yeah, I hope people are passing this podcast on to their friends that they see struggling.
I am at FinancialTherapySolutions.com and Wendy Wright.
And I have there a couple different levels of free and paid resources for people to start their journey.
Because there is also– usually there’s a few spots open for one-on-ones.
So that’s also grab them when they’re there.
But you can start the journey with a lot of the journaling prompts that I have there on the website as well.
It’s a great place to start by getting curious– Yes, exactly. –of what you talked about.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Fantastic.
And that’s at FinancialTherapiesolutions.com.
Yes, it is.
Awesome.
Well, Wendy, Larry, Paula, thank you so much.
Thanks to all of you for hanging out with us.
Doug, you’ve got it from here, man.
We’ll throw it back to the basement.
What should we have learned on today’s show?
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