If you plan on living a long life (and who doesn’t want that?), you’ll need to create over thirty years’ worth of cash flow. Studies show that the average person wants to retire at the “normal” age of mid-60s but also plans to live to reach the century mark. If that’s you, you’re in luck because today we’re joined by the CFO of one of the country’s greatest comedy clubs and a guy who’s a professional comedian himself, Bob Wheeler. Bob joins the guys for the entire show to talk about longevity and planning and maybe share a few laughs.
We also spend some time talking about two controversial approaches to paying down debt and banking: Velocity banking and Infinite banking. We describe both concepts and share the good, bad, and unfortunately, the ugly.
That’s not all. Doug is partying hard because it’s the anniversary of the date the shoelace was patented! There’s nothing like a basement-based party with a top comedian, your money jokes, and discussions of annuities, longevity, and getting started.
Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201
Enjoy!
Our Headlines
Watch On Our YouTube Channel:
Bob Wheeler

Big thanks to Bob Wheeler for joining us today. To learn more about Bob, visit The Money Nerve: You Deserve A Healthy Relationship With Money.
Tune into Bob’s hit podcast, Money You Should Ask.
Doug’s Trivia
- What part of the shoelace is the “aglit”?
Better call Saul…Sehy & OG
- Stacker Sandy calls in with a question about “velocity banking.”
Have a question for the show?
Want more than just the show notes? How about our newsletter with STACKS of related, deeper links?
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Other Mentions
- Money You Should Ask on Apple Podcasts
- What Is Infinite Banking – Pros and Cons of This Concept (moneycrashers.com)
Join Us Friday!
Tune in for a special roundtable episode on Friday when our roundtable consists of 3 CFP professionals: our own OG is joined by The Retirement Answer Man Roger Whitney and the woman behind the Everyone’s Talkin’ Money podcast Shannah Game. They’ll be discussing what are the “gotchas” in personal finance.
Written by: Kevin Bailey
Miss our last show? Listen here: Mastering Money Basics, Offsetting “Home Bias” Investing, and Better Retirement Investing (SB1494)
Episode transcript
Spider pig, spider pig does whatever a spider pig does. Can he swing from a web? No, we can’t. He’s a pig. Look out. He is a spider pig.
Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show.
Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug, and on today’s show, most people wanna live to be a hundred, but can our money survive a 30 year retirement? We’ll talk about that and more with today’s guest comedian, who also is A CPA and the CFO for one of the biggest comedy clubs in the world. Los Angeles’s Comedy Store, Bob Wheeler.
Bob, Joe, and OG will also answer a cry for help from someone who thought I’d better call Saul. See hi and og. And by popular demand, you can bet your bottom dollar that I’ll swoop in at just the right time with my mind. Bending 100% guaranteed script delicious trivia question. And now three guys who between them could easily polish off a dozen donuts.
It’s Joe, Bob, Wheeler, and
OI think I could probably handle half a dozen by myself. I dunno about you guys. Hey everybody, welcome to the Dozen Donut for the WIN podcast. I’m Joe Saul-Sehy. Hi. Average Joe Money on Twitter as Doug you so eloquently said. But let’s start off with the gentleman who’s always reliably across the card table from me on a Wednesday.
It’s Mr. og. How are you buddy?
Reliably, unless we have to reschedule it, in which case I’m unreliable. Are you a, uh, cream filling or a custard filling guy or nothing?
Are you just a It’s gotta be the right cream filling. A, a Boston cream? Yes. Yeah. I like the Bavarian cream stuff, but the powdered sugar gets all over my shirt, so I avoid that ’cause I’m a mess.
Apple? Yes. Jelly donut. Probably not. That’s what I was talking
about, like custard or cream. It’s gotta be custard.
Yes. Yeah. Gotta be custard. Yeah. Cud the chocolate, uh, filling. Yes. And that voice you just heard is our special guest. The man, the myth, the legend. Bob Wheeler’s back. How are you
man? I’m doing great.
I heard custard.
I’m in. Well, you know what Bob like for me, I’m with you, but, but, but, but let’s be truthful for me if there’s still donuts sitting out. An hour later, if it’s even the cream filled lemon, doesn’t matter what kind it is, they
can be two days old. I will eat them and just confirm that they are stale.
Right? What’s that joke? I don’t stop eating donuts when I’m full. I stop eating when I’m ashamed of myself. That is, that is the deal. So Bob, what have you been up to since the last time we talked? Lots
of taxes. We don’t get an extension in California this year, so, uh, we’re actually gonna do ’em on time.
What’s up with that? Huh? I know what deadlines real ones. So that’s the exciting time watching everybody freak out.
CPA. So you guys get all excited about the tax world. What like, is the super most fun thing going on in around tax time that you really love diving into the
$250,000 capital gain Exempt.
Did you just go to an ad break when I was telling you about the most exciting capital gains exemption tax
break? What? What would we do that? No. Continue. Continue. Bob, I’m sorry.
Do you know how riveting and impactful this tax rule is? It saves lives.
Well then continue. So you were saying that we get this, we have to be a homeowner.
That’s right. You
have to be a homeowner. So we eliminate most of the people in the world. People are still surprised by this rule. Dammit. Did you just go to another ad
break? Would we do that? We got Bob Wheeler here. You kidding me? We got Bob, we got og. We are gonna have a great show today. So let’s dive in.
Hello darlings. And now it’s time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamins headlines. Our headline today comes to us from Investment News, which is an industry rag for, uh, people who help other people with their money. This piece is written by Steve Randall. Steve writes, Americans wanna live to 100, but can they afford a 30 year retirement?
Gentlemen, let’s dive in. He says, millions of Americans are hoping for the length of retirement previously enjoyed only by those who could afford to give up work in their fifties, or live well beyond the average. While official CDC figures show the US life expectancy averages 73.5 years for men. And 79.3 years for women.
A new report shows ambition to defy the stats raising the question of how retirees will be able to afford the lifestyle they want. Specifically the survey from Corbridge Financial and the Longevity Project reveals that 54% of respondents say their goal to live to 100, but that does not necessarily mean they plan to work longer to fund a retirement running to three decades or more.
With 40% still aiming to retire between 65 and 69. So guys, let’s get this right. 40% of people say they’re gonna retire between 65 and 69, and then they say that, Hey, I’m gonna live to a hundred. I don’t know, og, you talk about math all the time. Not sure math is gonna be maybe kind of difficult on that.
It’s really interesting to think about the fact that if you retire when you’re in your sixties and you live to be a hundred, you’ll probably spend more time in retirement and being a kid than you will, having spent time working to accumulate the money for. All of that other time, right? The first obviously 18 or 20 years or whatever is funded by your folks, but generally speaking, like from that point forward, it’s on you.
And a hundred I think is, uh, I think it’s light. I think some people should aim higher. I don’t know. A
hundred seems boring. Bob, how old are you going to be when you pass away?
Um, I’d like to be 1 0 1. I mean, because like if I don’t wanna settle at a hundred, that’s like just, that’s following the
herd, barely getting your lips above water, right?
It’s like, yeah, just one more chin up, like, you know,
one more breath, just get one more. And then at a hundred do you take up like drinking faster and all kinds of smoking and all, all the drugs,
all of them. Everything. And then I’ll say that was the key to life. Yeah. That’s waiting for that moment is gonna keep me going.
Absolutely. But seriously, you know what this speaks to though, Bob, is that it sounds like a lot of people, you know, thinking about unicorns and rainbows and, and life after age 60. We’re spending a lot of time thinking about getting away, but do you think we’re spending enough time talking about what we’re
gonna
do after?
No. It’s amazing how many clients I still have right now who are in their fifties and sixties saying, I should think about saving some money in my IRA or retirement account. Wow. Like you’ve missed the boat. You’ll probably have to go to Florida or somewhere where they have good senior care.
Did they have good senior care in Florida?
Well, they did.
I dunno anymore. We were sending people to Florida for a while.
Just go move to the villages and put that loofah on your, on your thing that says that you want a roommate. Exactly. A lot of roomies for people that have no idea what, what I’m talking about. Time. Just go look that up. ’cause that’s, it’s a little creepy in the villages.
Could be. Uh, guys, we talk about what the wealthiest retirees know. You know, west Moss said this great book that we’ve talked about a lot. I feel like lately I think that this idea, og that I’m just gonna play golf or I’m just going to travel for 40 years, is that really what you’re gonna do? It’s gotta get deeper than that.
I
suspect that there’s a couple of different pieces here that you have to consider. The first, obviously the money aspect of it, right? Which is like, how am I gonna fund all of this? And having a rising lifestyle costs throughout retirement. You know, you get to 60, 65, 70, whatever it is when you, you know, pull the ripcord and you’re done working, you’re done earning money.
But that doesn’t mean that your expenses are stop, are, are gonna stop increasing. So that’s gonna continue, you know, at the, at just normal inflation prices triple every 25 years, give or take. It’s hard to picture this, but go get a gallon of milk right now. It’s five bucks and in a quarter century from now it’s gonna be 15.
And you go, ah, nah, that’s not right. It’s like, well, yeah it is because it was a dollar and now it’s five and it’s gonna be 10 and then 20. It’s like that. That’s gonna continue forever. So you need to have obviously a bunch of savings and a bunch of investments that are gonna keep up with inflation. But then there’s the other aspect of it in terms of what are you gonna do with your time and what are you gonna do with your health?
Because nobody wants to live to be a hundred or 101 if the last 20 years that their life is uninspiring and full of health issues and all that sort of stuff. So you have to dedicate time to that and you have to dedicate money to that because you have to eat right and you have to exercise, and you have to go to the doctor and do all these things that consume capital and consume time to be able to.
Do the other stuff that you want to do. It’s not this life of I just get to wake up at 11 o’clock in the morning and drink tea on the front porch and, and, and I’m gonna live for 40 years. Like, that’s, that’s not very inspiring. In fact, I think a lot of people would argue that that’s probably a very uninspiring way to spend 10, 20,
30, 40 years.
Well, and I wanna start off with what you said first, which was about investing for it, right? Because what, what I see are financial institutions and product sellers get really excited telling us about all the downturns that we could have, all the bad things. And so, Bob, I don’t know how often you see it when you’re doing taxes for people, but I gotta believe you see people getting into some of these products that historically underperform because they’re so worried that the bottom’s gonna fall out of the stock market and they’re not gonna keep up.
I have clients, older clients that will tell me, and not even just older clients, oh, I just took all my money out of the stock market and I put it in a bank account ’cause I’m worried. But when it starts going up again, I’m going right back in. Of course, people don’t think logically and you know, I talk about mindset a lot.
People are mostly are not thinking logically about what they need to do with their money. They’re thinking emotionally, and I think they are thinking about unicorns and I think they are pie in the sky without tangible planning and tangible real conversations about how to plan for it.
But is it is okay though, Bob, to feel the emotions?
Like I think you’re not telling people not to feel the emotions. Absolutely. But just understand where it’s coming from.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, it’s great to have fun and believe it’s all gonna work out, but it’s also important to just have the conversations, name the fears, name the excitement, name, all the hopes, dreams, whatever.
But then also get down to the nitty gritty and how are we gonna make
that happen. Let’s also dive into this idea that I’m getting outta the stock market because it’s going down. Yeah, and I’m gonna get back in when it starts going back up. Bob, you’re laughing. I’m laughing. Oh, she’s laughing. Why is that not feasible?
You’re
always gonna lose. I mean, if you’re buying, is it rising? You’re, you’re, it’s, it’s a, it’s a losing proposition. I mean, I know emotionally people are like, this is worrisome when it’s going down. Start buying, start buying, start buying more. You gotta be able to tolerate your
emotions. It’s so funny because I actually did this when I was younger.
Cerebrally I knew better, but emotionally, I, uh, I went and pulled some money just because I thought it was high. Stuff was high, right? And then one of two things happened, either a, it kept going up and then I’m like, well, I can’t get back in now. And then what? I’m hope, you know what I’m hoping for then og.
I’m hoping for the stock market to fall so that I can get back in like screw the rest of my money. That’s still in. Yeah. I’m hoping that this particular thing goes down, which if the market, you know what roughly 70% of the time goes up, I’m kind of screwed there.
Well, I think what you talked about at the very beginning of this little section here was most important.
It’s like the salespeople and the product salespeople are the ones that are driving these sorts of belief systems that are unrealistic for a 30 or, I mean, heck, even a 20 year, you know, retirement period of time. Because how many times do we know these rules of thumb? Like you should have your age in bonds or you know, or target day funds, right?
That what you pick the day that you’re gonna retire or the year you’re gonna retire and they get conservative as you get close to retirement, as if you need all of your money on the day you retire. If you’re retire when you’re 60. You need money, obviously when you’re 61, you need money that year. You need money when you’re 62, but you need the vast majority of your money somewhere beyond 65 to infinity.
So why would you invest your money or have a product or a solution, which is hardly the right word. Why would you have one of these things that is specifically designed to make it so that your money doesn’t grow over a long period of time? When you really only need short-term money for short-term time, you still need 30 year money and 40 year money.
Ask a 25-year-old how they’re investing for retirement and they go, oh, I’ve got, you know, I’ve got forever. Well, when you’re 65, you also have forever. You just have a little bit that you need right now. And that’s really the big difference. If you’re taking all of the risk off the table, you’re taking all of the return off the table.
There is no product in the universe of financial products that gives you none of the risk and all of the return that doesn’t exist in real life, period. Full stop. And anybody who says that they, that they have that solution is full of. Full of
something that we’d have to
beat whatever you want full of custard or cream.
One of the two.
Yeah. Uh, go with the one we like the
least
or the, the
most. Yeah. Jelly you’re full of. You’re full of blueberry jelly, gross.
Blueberry’s fine. I’ll
go with blueberry. Blueberries are fine, but blueberry, have you ever had blueberry jelly?
Yes. Yeah. It’s not the same scrumptious. It’s delicious.
It’s not. Those are fighting words. I’m coming across the table at you. Promises. Promises we, which brings up the second. So if the market goes up, I have to fight it off. But these product people og to your point, you know, they’re like, Hey, safety, when I pull my money out and the market goes down, after I pull it up, a I feel brilliant.
Which is completely stupid and it’s gonna wreck me ’cause I’m gonna make bad choices in the future. But then number two, I feel really safe while I’m in cash. And you know how that feels, Bob? I mean these people, when you’re like, no, no, no, you gotta get back in, they’re like, Hey, but I’m safe where I’m at.
I am very Look at the market around me’s going down. What could be the problem? You know what’s
so interesting? People love to feel safe. They love to just, here’s my favorite thing at tax time. I lost money in the Stark market. I get to write it off. It’s a write off, and I’m like, so you lost money? It’s great that we’re gonna get a benefit from your loss, but you lost.
Or they’ll come in and go, oh my God, I made money. This sucks. Oh, I have to pay. Oh, that’s terrible. Oh, you’re making money. It feeds right into this piece about not being logical. I’ve got so many clients that are so upset, they have capital gains and so many clients excited that they lost money. They get to write off.
Priorities. Priorities.
It’s an interesting vein here, Bob, that you opened up because when I was talking about these products that, oh gee, you’re kind of mentioning too, are these half explained products, equity index annuities, right? They’re gonna get a portion of the stock market gains in exchange for, you can’t lose money.
Hey, you get to participate in the stock market, which is a crazy way to phrase that, and a perfect way to sell it. You’re gonna get a portion of the stock market gains and you’re not gonna get any of the downturn. And I wanna get back Bob to that being a tax trap. But first, let’s talk about og. Why that construct?
99.9% of the time, maybe a hundred percent of the time doesn’t work. Why does the e equity index annuity not work?
Well, I mean, I hate to just pick on a particular product and say it’s not great because you know, let’s do it like we’ve talked about. Let’s do it. Let’s do it anyway. I mean, here’s the thing.
There’s a purpose for every financial product that’s out there. The problem with most financial salespeople is if that’s all that they’re focused on, or if that’s where the commission is at, or whatever the case may be, you can spin whatever you need to spin to make it sound like you need to make it sound.
So you can put food on the table. There’s a time and a place for something like an annuity or a whole life policy or something like that. It’s just they get applied so incorrectly, over long, you know, over hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people. Any sort of financial product. This goes back to, you know, whether it’s an index annuity or a whole life policy or.
Or an investment, you know, we see people who say like, oh, I, you know, this investment pays me a 17% dividend. That’s how, that’s awesome. It’s like, well, what’s the other end of that stick? Like that doesn’t mean it’s awesome. It just means that they’re, you know, spending all of their cash flow right now and not reinvesting in, in, in the market, I mean, or reinvesting in their product.
So an index annuity works very simply in that the insurance company will write a contract with you and guarantee that you’re gonna get a certain percentage of the overall return of a specific index, whether it’s the s and p or any other number of indexes that you pick. And in exchange for that, they will make sure that the account value doesn’t go down while they’re ensuring that the account value doesn’t go down because they’re taking all the upside beyond a certain amount.
So they might say, well, we’ll give you 40% of the upside and 0% of the downside. Well, doesn’t take, uh, what, what do you call ’em, Joe? Rocket drivers. Rocket driver.
It doesn’t take a rocket driver, which I dunno if you know that term, Bob, but. A rocket driver’s, like a rocket scientist, but they actually drive the rocket.
They’re driving the rocket. I love it. I actually heard a financial planner who was an idiot in my early days of financial planning. I was getting ready to go home and I could hear him in the conference room with a client of his saying, well, it doesn’t take a rocket driver to understand this. And that was totally something Frank would say, by the way, which is why we were all, none of us could believe.
None of us could figure out how Frank ever got a client, by the way. But it doesn’t take a rocket driver. Doesn’t take a rocket driver. He
wasn’t a rocket driver. He was a
salesman.
Yeah. At the end of the day, there is no free lunch if you need market returns, which you need to have for long-term spending ability.
That’s the only thing that outpaces inflation is equity returns, the ownership of businesses, period. That’s it. So if you’re gonna have those things, you have to be okay with the ups and downs of being a business owner. Being a business owner at a grand scale like owning. Apple or Amazon or whatever as part of your investment portfolio, you’re still a part business owner and they have good years and not so good years, but that’s the exchange that you get for having a return that’s greater than the money sitting in cash.
And,
um, I’m looking into a company like Apple and just going, do you know who I am? I don’t know if you know this, but I own a big piece of this company. I
own 0.000, oh, oh, oh oh. Six one 4% of, of this company. Bob, have
you tried that? I have not. Do you know who I
am? Yeah. Joe does it all the time. Texarkana,
I do
in Hollywood.
That just doesn’t work. Everybody’s like, yeah, whatever. Uh, Lou hasn’t, who doesn’t have an Oscar and a HBO special? Get over yourself.
Oh, you only have a podcast. Oh wow. We all have those. Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh, this idea OG though the equity index annuity, to be clear, when you talk about the participation rate, you can go back and do that math and usually doesn’t just a fixed annuity rate often beat what that participation would be.
Every product’s different. But yeah, I mean, if you’re gonna use it for a part of your investment portfolio, you have to assume that it’s gonna be something like cash or something like fixed income. That’s the long term rate. Because when you cap the upside, even though you’re taking away the negatives, the average goes way, way, way, way down.
So we see that most of the average returns are three, maybe 4% over long periods of time. And that’s much more like a cash return or much more like a fixed income return, not, not
an equity return. And then, Bob, the second thing about annuities, and to your point, people going, oh, I had to pay taxes. Mm-Hmm.
I read a thing recently, this is why people don’t take money out of annuities, is because it’s last in first out. Meaning that that interest inside the annuity is gonna then build up and you’ve gotta pull out all of the interest before you, before you actually spend the money. So you must see people, they go, I’m just not gonna spend any money ’cause I don’t wanna pay the tax.
Which is kinda ridiculous. Yeah, no, it’s crazy.
I, I just had a client in the RMD is 250,000 a year, the RMD two 50,000. Wow. Very annoyed that they’re paying the. Believe it or not, their effective rate is about 18% because of some other stuff
going on. Hold on a second. Before you get to the rest of that story, I wanna define for people what, because Bob, what you just said went over a lot of people’s head.
Oh, okay. The RMD is the require minimum of distribution. You have to take this later in retirement, we’ll just leave it there and it’s based on your age, but, but a requirement and distribution of $250,000 means there’s probably some number, like a bajillion dollars in this IRA. Mm-Hmm.
Yeah. And I’m thinking your RMD is two 50 and you’re complaining that you’re paying, you’re not even in the highest tax bracket and they’re older, but I love that they’re planning for their kids.
You know, at 89 years old, they’re still upset about paying tax. With all that money coming in, they are set for the next three years.
But how do you tell somebody like that to spend their money? I. You know, how do you convince them? Because the, the reason they got that money in the first place, Bob, was that they were natural savers and not spenders.
It’s really hard. I’ve got a client that now it’s been six or seven years that he’s got about six, $7 million. All just sitting, won’t spend a dime, won’t remodel the house. Won’t take a trip. Just in case. ’cause something could happen. Yeah. I’ve tried to force clients. I’m like, you must spend this much money by the time I talk to you next year.
Next year. They’re like, I didn’t do it.
I couldn’t. Oh,
if you’re saving your whole life at some point, have a little fun with
it. But it just, it, it puts a pit in my stomach. I mean, yep. Oh gee, there’s two sides of this. You know, somebody wants a 40 year retirement and you can’t get them to save any money ’cause they’re busy owing it up today.
And then they’re gonna yolo themselves outta money by the time they’re 80, when they are gonna live to a hundred. And then on the other side, you get the person who’s the uber saver who can easily do it. And then they get to retirement and they forget to have fun, which means that they probably won’t live to 100.
I mean, all the studies show if you’ve no purpose, no hobbies, no nothing, you’re probably not gonna make it that far. I.
Bob, I’ve got a real great solution for this by the way. The next time that you meet with these folks, you just, uh, adjust your bill to the inverse of their spending.
I’ll charge you.
Whatever you
don’t spend, you just go like, look, I need you to spend 400 K this year on whatever you want. And they go, I couldn’t do it. Just go, no problem. I understand. Here’s my invoice, three 50 to me, 50 to you. See how this is gonna work? And then they go, whoa, wait a second. It, I like it. I’m gonna spend 400.
You go, mission accomplished. You know,
I like it. There it is.
Well, you know, it’s in just real quick, just talking about planning and not planning. I, I recently had somebody die unexpectedly. They have amassed $30 million worth of real estate and all this stuff. And the family who could care less in nine months has liquidated everything.
Oh. Just so they can get to their cash. And that’s theirs now. And the person who spent their whole life working so hard in LA to be able to buy 20 pieces of real
estate with 15 units and 10 U like.
To just watch it all go in nine months, somebody’s whole life. And people just don’t wanna plan or don’t wanna think that they’re gonna die.
So let’s just
not talk about it. La Texarkana, Bob, it’s all the same. It’s all the same. Same. I mean, you, you buy nine or 10 piece of real estate in Texarkana or la huge sum of money. But did you actually just use a phrase, die unexpectedly? Like, isn’t that like 97%?
Well, that is most of us, right? I mean, we’re gonna die and people freak out when I tell him that.
But yes, it, but it, he was younger than, and even though they were telling him, Hey, your health is taking a turn, it’s like, it’ll be fine. Oh. So there’s a
little denial. Oh, that’s horrible. That is horrible. Well, and even worse is he spends a lifetime building it, and it just all gets torn down quickly. Yeah.
And probably then wasted on stuff because you feel like a lottery winner. Oh yeah.
These people didn’t have to feel an ounce of sweat to get this money. They’re just Oh. Most people, I think, will spend right back to the comfortable balance. And so if they’re used to 5,000 bucks, they’ll blow through two or 3 million bucks just to get back to that number they’re really comfortable with.
I just spend a little time crapping all over annuities, but realistically, oh gee. I mean, I think if somebody is gonna live to a hundred, isn’t this something CFPs point to Is that maybe some longevity insurance might be something we might think about.
The latest, uh, financial products in the annuity space are on these lifelong annuities, which are basically, the concept is, is that you don’t start them until you’re in your eighties and nineties versus you, you know, have saved money.
You put it in, you know, and now you turn on this stream of income when you’re 65 and you’re ready to retire. Instead, it’s the opposite. It’s like, this is your longevity insurance of like, oh crap, I live too long. How do I have some money when I’m in my nineties? Then you turn on this final bucket, so to speak, and it produces an income.
But the reality is, is again, it’s the same thing. You’re, you’re paying for a guarantee. Well, what happens when you pay for a guarantee? You take some return off the table, because that’s just how that works. You can’t have both the guarantee and all the upside at the same time. You could do this on your own and with your own.
Tranche of money and figure out and do the math and go, well, I’m gonna need X dollars between 90 and a hundred, and I’m 60 today. I need to set aside a bucket, and this is my age, 90 money, which is what you should be doing anyway, so you can go buy a product and have an insurance company do this guarantee for you and it costs you some money.
Or you could just do it yourself if you can do the math and trust yourself not to, you know, pop said blow through 2 million in a couple years, you know, for, for fun. Although that does sound like a pretty enjoyable
couple of years. Say, if anybody can do that, you can do it. og.
Well, trust me, I’ve, I’ve modeled that behavior.
I, I assure you there’s, I’ve already spent the next 2 million in my mind. That’s the downside. It’s nothing’s new for me because I’m like, oh, I’ve already consumed all that. I
mean,
one thing to think about though, like if you’re 90, you may not be in your best thinking days, those last five to 10 years. You really need to have that stuff set up ahead of time.
Absolutely. You may be needing home care. You may need assisted living. There’s like so many things where. You’re not gonna have a lot of choice. It’s gonna be made for you at a certain point, and I think a lot of people just don’t take that into consideration. You don’t have a lot of choices at that
point.
Bob, I’m 56. They say that about me now. You might not been in your best thinking years. I’ve said that about you for years. Joe, I don’t know if you know this, but you’re on a podcast. What the hell are you thinking? Like where’s It’s
all downhill from here. That’s right. What’s going on?
Halfway to one 12, Joe.
Then they hand me a jelly donut and I’m good. There you go. Just very happy talking to the microphone, Joe. Well guys, we’re going to continue this conversation in our newsletter. The 2 0 1 2 0 1 comes out the day after each of our Monday Wednesday podcast Is Podcast is. Podcast is Pod Podcast
Door.
Podcast die. Our podcast is Po I, but yeah. Uh, which means it’s on Tuesday, Thursday. If you can do that math the day after. Oh wow. Uh, Stacking Benjamins dot com slash 2 0 1 gets you there. And Kevin Bailey provides a bunch of links and data and, uh, really dives even deeper into this topic than we’re able to, and clearly when it comes to trying to plan a 40 year retirement.
To your point, Mr. Wheeler, there’s a lot of planning that needs to happen much more than, um, than what we’re able to do here. In 20 minutes, we’re gonna help, uh. Stacker in need here in a minute. But before that, Doug, I think you’ve got, uh, today’s trivia question for us.
Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor Doug, and we’re throwing a wild celebration here in the basement because this was a huge moneymaking date in history. Way back on today’s date in 1790, the modern shoelace was patented. Cha ching. The patent included something called an aglet. Here’s today’s question.
What part of the shoelace is the aglet? I’ll be back right after I contemplate the fact that I’m honoring this huge shoestring celebration while wearing Velcro shoes. That’s a little bit awkward.
Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s Mom’s neighbor, Doug, and what a party we’re having down here. Woo-hoo. Hey, keep it down. Back there. Trying to work. Everyone has their shoes off and we’re playing songs like I Will Walk 500 Miles and these boots were made for Walk-in Joe’s. Mom says, it’s a total hoot and even a bigger hoot.
Me getting you the answer to today’s epic trivia question. The modern shoelace patent included something called an aglet. What the fuck is an alet? Well, stackers. I realized during the break that this is a throwaway. You know why? If you took just two seconds to think about it, a shoelace is only made up of two parts.
The alet and the um, the stringy part. So, and unless you thought the alet was the stringy part, you came to the amazing realization that through the process of elimination, the Alet was actually the reinforced tip. That’s kind of funny. Your incredible stackers. Can’t believe you figured it out. And I love you so, so much, so much that I’m abandoning you to go party again while you hang out with Joe OG and Bob Wheeler,
and I’m super happy we have him here for the World Tour in mom’s basement.
Michael Bolter’s here, how are you?
I’m fine. Thank you for having me, Joe.
Well, I’m super happy you’re here. Although whenever somebody comes up with this twisted stuff as you’ve come up with in your new book, chasing Money, I just kinda wonder where that all comes from and, and, and actually this book starts off with really high stakes and these people are running a company, and I wanna talk about that for a second.
This idea of running a startup, of being an entrepreneur, that piece is autobiographical to you.
Absolutely. Um, a little bit of background. I, uh, started my career a long time ago. Um, and I went to work for, uh, for Intel Corporation when it was still a small company. I think when I went to work for them, they had about 500 employees.
In fact, uh, side note, just before I interviewed with them, I interviewed with an even smaller company. They had about a hundred employees, and I figured they were never going to make it. And they had a really funny name. I think it was called Apple. Oh, no. So I went to work for Intel, was a technologist for 20 years, and got the entrepreneurial bug and left the company in, uh, the late nineties for a startup, which after a year crashed and burned.
Actually, we were about. Two weeks from going public and we literally imploded. Oh, yeah. And so I then kind of got the entrepreneurial bug and ended up spending the second 20 years of my career, uh, being an entrepreneur and starting multiple different companies. And you’re right. It, it’s a real grind. And it’s, it’s also a great challenge
in many ways.
Well, we follow these two guys, Marty and Bo, and they have this company that they’re trying to get funding for. And what’s wild to me, Michael, you know, and most of our stackers, they work for somebody else, but a lot of them are thinking like you did when you were with Intel. Hey, what if I went out on my own?
Like, how great would this be? I could have the freedom to do what I want. I, I could do all these fascinating things, but there’s also a family attached. Right. What did your wife say when you said, I’m gonna leave this company called Intel, which is booming in the late nineties, and I’m gonna go start my own thing.
How did the two of you come together on that?
So my advice to any of your audience who want to become entrepreneurs, either male or female, they need two things. One, they need to make sure that their spouse has an awful lot of patience, and two, they need to make sure that their spouse is earning a living.
Because if you suddenly end up being an entrepreneur, you’re going to find yourself going months at a time without contributing to the household finances. And if your spouse can’t help. Then you’re in trouble. I was very lucky, uh, because as I said, I, I became an entrepreneur after already having been with Intel for quite a number of years, I did quite well there.
And so for a while anyways, until, uh, Intel crashed in terms of stock, yeah. Evaluation. It went from $75 down to about 13. That was
2002, right? The 2000 to 2002 wreck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. And of course I, I’d been with Intel for so long, I didn’t diversify. I fell in love with the company. Right. I fell in love with the stock.
That’s a lesson I learned that I’m never going to do again. So I watched it just go down. I’d never got out of it. I stayed with it ’cause I always thought it was going to come back and ended up losing about 80% of my retirement. And so my wife is looking at me and I’m looking at her and we’re saying, oh, I gotta go back to work.
Yeah, you do so and so. If you’re going to become an entrepreneur, my wife went back to work as well, and during the rough years when things were tough and I didn’t collect a paycheck, she was able to keep everything going. She was very patient with me. She was. She’s a great sport about
that. Well, and that’s what’s interesting here in chasing money, and we’re gonna talk about, for people that wanna write a book, actually, you going through and writing this, but in chapter two, we get a glimpse into one of the main character Marty’s households and his spouse.
You do a great job, uh, Michael, of making her seem charming and seeming like somebody with the patience of job. Uh, she’s already been through one startup that didn’t succeed and now it seems like they’re on startup number two. That clearly is crashing and she’s completely had enough, and I think you do a great job of making it, that it isn’t, that she’s not patient, it’s that you can only be patient for so long.
This woman, Michael’s been patient forever and she’s just seeing the writing on the wall that this seems to be going nowhere. Right?
So in the book, although I draw a lot of my characters are from people that I know or that I met, and obviously Abby, the, the Marty’s wife. Is very concerned at this point and is trying to do things to try to get him out of being an entrepreneur.
She wants him to go back to work and make a regular income and not go through these periods of financial drought. And so now, in real life, that never happened to me. And I was, as I said, I was very fortunate, but I needed and wanted the tension in the book. And so I made Abby a little bit more concerned about their financial situation.
Oh
yeah, she’s, she is done. And what I like is you draw this out. Once again, everybody, I’m not gonna give away the book, but we’re just gonna talk about the first three chapters here. So we’re gonna give you just some little cues here. There’s gonna be plenty of chasing money for people that wanna read the whole thing.
But early on you have that, you draw up her frustration when she stops at, I think Michael, it’s a gas station and her credit card gets declined. Yes. And it’s in front of friends of hers because they live in this small town and everybody knows everybody. And so she’s got that, that embarrassment. I’ve lived through that too.
That was I have
too, that’s why I actually, that’s actually something that happened. That’s why I, I, I put that in there. It’s horrifying.
It’s embarrassing as heck. Absolutely horrifying. And it could be a million different things that happen. I actually, it’s funny, when I was a financial planner, Michael, I took clients to dinner and, and the waiter walked up to the table with me and these high net worth clients and said, sir, your card’s been declined.
Great. Oh, fantastic. And for people that haven’t read my book, stacked, this is back when my money was, I was actually at that point, frankly, getting my act together and it was my debit card, which brings up something else. She then goes to her debit card. The debit card goes through, but Marty knows there’s no money in that account, so they’re gonna pay a $34 overdraft fee.
On top of that, like this monetary tension that our families have, like you build these stakes that I think everyday families feel all the time. Yeah,
no, that that’s absolutely true. And that’s actually what happens, right? And it happened to me. So you would use the card, it would go through because the bank for some reason, just they let you kind of on a debit card.
They let you charge, but then what they’ll do is they’ll give you a 35, 36, I don’t remember what it was. It was many years ago, $36. The charge itself is 50 and you now have an 85 80 $6 tab because. They process the card. So, yeah, and it’s just a wheel
that you can’t get out. I remember trying to pay the $50 right afterwards to make sure that I, I had enough money in there.
Of course, the bank back then would rearrange the transactions to make sure that I had enough. This has been proven. We’ve, we’ve had Wall Street Journal reporting on this. They’d rearrange the transactions to make sure that I still sunk. You know, bank of America always said, Michael, that they were there to help.
As I was digging my hole, they were like providing me bigger and bigger shovels, man.
Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. That’s exactly what they do. Yes.
So this tension of being an entrepreneur is there this tension of there’s not enough money. There’s not a consistent paycheck and the need to go back to a consistent paycheck is there.
Let’s talk about the third elephant in the room. Your book opens. These guys are, are in this cabin in the middle of nowhere. Partway up Mount Hood. There’s a tarp on the floor and, uh, guys wielding a gun. So I think we know why there might be a tarp on the floor just in case there needs to be some cleanup afterwards.
Marty Bo and another guy, their investor, all tied to these chairs and there’s a Russian mobster, and I thought, wow, this seems like a James Bond movie. Like this is when I first, you know, you opened. This is page one, page two stuff we’re talking about guys. I’m like, wow, this is right out of a James Bond movie.
This is not out of a James Bond movie. Michael. There was a Russian mobster incident that you know of somebody close to you, something happened.
Yeah, so you’re right. The first nine pages I opened the book with a bang, right? And, um, in the first nine pages it’s basically introduces Marty and Bo. There are two entrepreneurs trying to save their struggling company.
They take on a third partner. They should have vetted this guy a little bit more, but he came up with a very clever way to raise capital. And so they go to an investor meeting and they’re Shanghais, uh, so to speak, and they’re, uh, by a Russian mobster who demands that they return $10 million and a mysterious painting of some kind and make his point.
He kills the third partner. All that happens in the first nine pages of
the book, which by the way, and I will give this away, this is a big hook that led me in to this thriller. He’s the only guy that knows what the hell’s going on. Exactly. They kill the guy that knows what’s
going on. That was the point.
They killed the wrong guy to make his point. He killed the wrong guy. And the rest of the book is, it basically just unpacks then the next four days. ’cause the Russian maniac gives him four days to find the money in the painting. And so the book basically spends the next four days doing that. Yeah. So what happened is that actually something very similar happened to a business partner of mine.
So I’d got a call, uh, at like, I dunno, it was like maybe one o’clock in the morning I was in bed and I had been into being an entrepreneur for about a year and I had just bought a company from a very small company, it was an art company from this person. And they call me and they says, you gotta come over, you gotta come over.
It’s really, really bad and wouldn’t tell me what. So long story short, I end up getting to his house. And I knock on the door and a very large policeman with a very large gun meets me at the door, wants my driver’s license, checks my identity, and then lets me in. I’m looking around, I’m I, and he won’t tell me what’s going on.
And then I, you know, well, where is, where’s my friend? And uh, I said, he’s in the bathroom. And I said, he’s in the bathroom. He says, yeah, he won’t come out. So I went, knocked on the door. He opened up the door just a little bit to see who it was, and he lets me in. And he is sitting in the toilet just, and he’s just blubbering like a child.
He is, his eyes are all swollen. He’s been crying for at least several hours. He’s just a mess, right? I’m going, what is going on? What, what’s happened? And he tells me this story about how he owed money to this Russian guy. And, um, that guy called him up and said, let’s come over to my house and we’ll talk about it and we’ll figure out, and we’ll negotiate a way that you can pay me back the money that you owe me.
And so he goes, and as soon as he, uh, knocks on the door, the guy opens the door, puts a gun to his forehead, marches him downstairs into his basement, there’s a tarp. On the floor and a chair and there’s another guy there. And the guy tapes him to the chair and then they go kind of torture him to, in order for him to sign these contracts that they had that would turn over all of his assets, house, motorcycle, cigarette boat, multiple cars, various other different things.
And they would put a plastic bag over his head if he didn’t agree to do it. And they did that several times till he blacked out. And then he finally started signing all this stuff. When they taped his arm back up, it was over the jacket that he was wearing. And so because of that, he was able to, when they left, they left him unguarded for a while and he was able to squeeze out and he ran to the neighbors.
Oh. And told the neighbors, the neighbors, the cops came, everybody. And they actually caught him. And, and the guy is, uh, I think he’s still in prison. It was like, he was, uh, the trial in the sentence I think was 23 years, and that was about 20 years ago. So he is probably still in prison.
Maybe there’s another story when the, when the guy gets out.
Maybe that’s your next book. I don’t know.
Yeah, right. Exactly.
Yeah. I don’t think your friend would want that, uh, that, that
rhythm. Yeah. So, well, it’s a, it was a fascinating story and I, I’ve always carried kind of those images in my head and that helped to form a lot of the
first chapter. Well, and I know that building stakes is, is super important.
A big question is, you know, you see a lot of authors now that come out of an MFA program or that begin their career as a writer. For you, that is not at all where, where you began. Let’s talk about the process of writing a book. How long have you been wanting to write this book? How long did it take to put together, and how did that all get started?
So, that’s a good question. I’ve always wanted to, to write, I always thought it would be a fun thing. It was a, it was literally a bucket list item. And about 10 years ago, a little over 10 years ago, my friend and I, the, the two characters, Marty and Bo are strongly associated with, uh, with my business partner and best friend Roy and, and myself.
Not exactly, not a hundred percent, but I drew a significant amount from that. And we were in, uh, we were in New York actually, and we were trying to raise capital for a startup that we had. And we had just gone through a really grueling day of talking to an awful lot of people and pitching and doing all of that.
And, uh, we were heading back to the hotel and it was, um, late at night and my friend said, listen, let’s, let’s pick up the pace. ’cause I’m not comfortable walking the streets of New York at night and. I was very frustrated and stressed out and I said, you know what Roy? I said, right now if some guy wants to rob me and stick a gun in my face, I’d probably ask him to invest in the company before he pulled the trigger.
And Roy starts to laugh just like you. And what happened was that we then ended up getting back to the hotel lobby and we’re, we’re still joking about it. And Roy says, you know, he said, that would make a really interesting story, wouldn’t it? And so we spent the next hour sitting in the lobby bar drinking scotch and coming up with different ideas associated with that story.
What would happen if an entrepreneur or two entrepreneurs ended up taking money from the wrong people? Right? And so that was, like I said, that was about 10, 12 years ago. And every time I had a moment to myself, whether it be driving or showering or whatever, I would keep adding to that plot. I would just, you know, come up with like a little, a little anecdote that I had wanted to throw into that plot.
And so I developed this plot in my head. It’s a little bit like, uh, like a, a daydream, if you will, right? I then ended up retiring and I said, you know, uh, I think I’m gonna write this down. I, I, I’ve got it floating around in my head for years now, and I think I’m just going to start writing it. And of course, it wasn’t working.
It didn’t work at all because I’d never written a book before. And, uh, what happened was that I was, uh, taking a walk with my wife one day and she said, Hey, how’s that, uh, how’s that book thing coming for you? And I said, oh, it sucks. It’s not working. And she said, why? And I said, well. It’s not working every time I, I, I can’t get my thought down on paper where it makes sense.
And I’ve tried it in various different ways. I’ve tried, you know, third person past tense and this and that, and whatever, all the different, all the jargon that’s associated with writing a book. She said, you know, Michael, she said, you’re doing it the wrong way. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, she said, you’re a great storyteller.
You’ve always been a good storyteller. Hell you go to the grocery store and come back and tell me an entire story, uh, about, about what happened while you were at the grocery store, right? She said, so stop worrying about writing it and just tell it. Pretend you met a friend that you haven’t seen in a long time, and you met him at a bar, and you’re sitting at a bar and, and you say, oh my God, you should hear what happened to me.
I said, huh, that’s interesting. And I did that and
it worked. Did you take any writing classes? Did you go to meetings? I know in northeast Texas here we have a, we have a writer’s workshop a couple times a year that people can go to, that authors can attend. Did you attend any of these writing functions at all?
No. In fact, that’s one of the reasons why I’m so happy that it’s won these awards because I didn’t, I just wrote it, I just told the story. So I, I, I have no formal training at all.
But it has, it seems to have that same, you know, three act, play kind of structure that a modern tale will have. Do you watch a lot of thriller movies?
Do you read a lot of thriller books before this? ’cause it seems to really, you know, it is highly original, but it still also seems to fit the genre very, very well.
Well, yes, I love movies, right? So I’ve seen tons of thriller type movies, do a lot of reading. I’ve always loved reading, and when I read, uh, I tend to actually love the way words are put together.
So it takes me a long time to get sometimes through a book, because I will reread sentences because I just. Love the way the words are structured.
The construction
of the sense. Yeah. Yeah. And so a lot of people think that’s really weird, you know, they’ll go, why don’t you just read the book and you know, you’ve been on this thing forever?
And I go, yeah, but there’s this one paragraph and I just keep rereading it ’cause it’s so beautiful and, you know, so yeah. But that’s just me. I,
I, you know. Are you an engineer then by training? Yeah, I,
my, my undergraduate, yeah, my undergraduate’s in aeronautical
engineering that just said engineer all over it right there.
Yeah, it does, doesn’t it, doesn’t it? Yeah. But still, but still the beauty and, and for me too, like, you know, our fans of our show now, how much I like Disney and I’m not that much into Mickey Mouse or into whatever, but I do like when you go there thinking about like, what these people were thinking when they created it, like how that came out, how it sprung from them, which is this wonderful combination of science process and creativity, you know, which I think are the ingredients.
Which leads me to a couple more questions for, uh, budding writers out there. Did you outline it first or did you just sit down and write it? I didn’t
have to outline it. As I said, I had this entire plot outline’s completely in your head, or at least the outline. Yeah. All in my head. ’cause I’d, I’d spent 10 years on it.
Yeah. I wouldn’t advise other writers, running writers to do that. ’cause it takes an awful long time. But as I said, for me it was just this, it was a little bit of a, a kind of a a little fancy thing that I had in my head, right. So I get bored when I’m driving, et cetera. And this is the time before podcasts and various other different things.
I don’t do that anymore. I, I now listen to Stacking Benjamins in my car. There you go. Stop.
Keep going. Stop, keep going. Yeah. There.
So I don’t, but in the old, you know, in the 10, 15 years ago, um, you know, you just start daydreaming and you start thinking about different things and different characters and a potential story that you’ve got floating around in your head.
So I didn’t have to outline it, I just told the story. Sometimes it does go in different directions. Uh, the very first. Draft the very first manuscript that I kind of put forward and I, I let my wife read it and I let my two kids read it. ’cause I didn’t trust anyone else. And my wife said, she said, honey, there are no women in this book.
It’s all about men. I. I think you need to have some female characters. My daughter said Dad, the Marty character, who’s clearly based on you, I think he needs a little bit more stress. I, I think, you know, life’s a little perfect for him already. And as a result, I introduced Abby, the wife, into the book. I also introduced Natalia, who you don’t know yet.
She’s later in the book. He’s, so, yeah, I started re I, I then rewrote it with different characters to make it a little bit more
robust. It’s, it’s interesting that you say that ’cause it’s, it’s very easy for people to write from just their point of view. And I think that’s an author’s journey is fleshing that out.
I’m just thinking of, there’s a middle grade, uh, fiction book that I have 99% finished and then I realized that the best friend of the main character needs to be a girl. It’s a boy, it’s still, but it totally makes a book better by a long shot if, if his best friend is this girl. So now I have to rewrite the Duffy character as a girl.
And I got to that point, Michael, maybe six years ago, and just went, that’s just a bridge too far right now, my life. So it’s sitting there, 99% of the way done for this major rewrite, but a great thing. But that brings up the next thing, which is when I wrote my half of Stack to, you know, the money book that I co-wrote, I set myself a word count goal every day to just get it out.
Like how did you actually accomplish the writing? Did you set a word count goal? Did you try to write a chapter at a time? Because I know writer’s block comes up and procrastination comes up for every writer. Like, how did you fight those things?
So really, really good question. I didn’t worry about words at the beginning.
’cause remember it started out as this is just a hobby. Yeah. You know, I’m retiring and I need something to do because I spent my entire life getting up in the morning and putting on a uniform. Meaning, you know, work clothes. Yeah. And going to work. And even to this day, uh, I’m writing the sequel right now, and I leave the house.
I can’t do this at home. I leave the house and I go to a coffee shop. I actually put it in the, uh, the acknowledgements. There were two coffee shops, one in Charlevoix, Michigan and one in, uh, Portland, Oregon. And I would go there every morning. They knew me. They had my coffee waiting for me. And I sit there and I, uh, and I write for, you know, 6, 7, 8 hours depending on how I feel.
I didn’t worry about the word count or any of that. I just, uh, and writer’s block is definitely something that, that you have to wrestle with. But I wasn’t worried about it at the beginning. And then once it started to kind of become real, uh, that the hobby started becoming something that was, you know, legitimate and, and, and people were going to be reading this, not just me, then I started worrying about getting it done.
That’s when I would then say, okay, I’m not leaving here today, meaning the coffee shop for, you know, until I write at least 500 words there, it’s, or something like that.
Yeah. Yeah. I like having some type of a structured approach like that to get it done. It’s interesting to see a hobby turn into a business to some degree, you know?
And even though it sounds like you’re not worried about money and making money from the book, but treating it in a business-like manner, where you’ve got a structure to your day. Yes,
absolutely. Absolutely. And in fact, I, to be really honest with you, if I didn’t have this, I would probably die in early death.
I, I’m one of those people that I can’t just sit, let me digress for a moment. So, there was a period of my life I left Intel, uh, was an entrepreneur for about a year with a startup that I started while I was at Intel, uh, which blew up. As I said, I then went into kind of deep retirement because I’d, I’d gotten sick, overworked, and had some medical problems.
And so for about a year, I didn’t do much. I just kind of, you know, I enjoyed the retirement before the Intel stock started to crater, okay? And I would find myself becoming this vegetable. I, I sometimes I wouldn’t even get out of. Bed till like 10 or 11 o’clock. I’d hang out in my, in my bathrobe till two or three o’clock in the afternoon.
It was pathetic. It was really sad. And so I realized that here I was in my late forties, early fifties, and I was acting like I was in my eighties. You know, I actually started really to dislike myself. Now I went back to work, I became an entrepreneur, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I, if I, even now, after I am officially retired, if I went back to that, if I didn’t have something to get me up in the morning and go and do something, I would probably just become a vegetable.
So it is fascinating though. I mean, uh, our friend Wes Moss wrote a book about what the happiest retirees know. And it’s all about purpose. Michael. It is all about having this, this, uh, purpose and thing that you’re just different than you were at Intel. And I think this idea of not chasing something. Is, um, rejecting, I think the human condition, you know, and who we really are at our heart.
I wanna ask one more thing, which is about the coffee shop, because, uh, uh, I believe that’s where you and Doug fortuitously met, I think was at the coffee shop. Yes. But it’s funny, this idea of background noise and creation. I work from mom’s basement and there is an app that goes on my browser called cfi, and it makes the noise of a coffee shop.
And what’s fascinating is when I have this hum going behind me, I become a machine and I can, I can do tons and tons and tons of work. I turn that CFI app off and it’s dead silent here. I get nothing done. Do you find the coffee shop actually makes you more creative and spit out work? We are a hundred percent
alike, uh, in that respect.
Uh, that is exactly, uh, what I need. I need the white noise. Here’s a, here’s a, uh, another small anecdote. So when I was, even back when I was going to school and I would get ready for finals, a lot of people would go to the library to study or they would study in their dorm room. I didn’t, I went to the student union.
Which was like this giant cafeteria, right? And I would literally sit there from like seven o’clock in the morning while the kids were coming in and eating breakfast, and then they were having their coffee and all their meetings and all, all the way till four or five o’clock in the afternoon studying for my finals.
Because I needed the energy, I needed the noise. And you’re right, if it’s dead quiet, my mind starts to wander. I do everything but concentrate, right? I just, I, you know, oh look, there’s a shiny little object over there. What is that? Yeah. And oh, oh, whatever happened to this, you know, whatever. It’s, oh look, there’s this magazine.
I haven’t looked at that magazine in years, so you get my point. It just becomes crazy. And I need that. And so what I do is I, I do, I go to a coffee shop. Thank God, uh, there is a couple of, uh, coffee shops because if you think about it, other than Starbucks, if you go to a regular coffee shop, they’re gonna kick you out because if they’re not going to enjoy, because they make their money churning tables, right?
So the last thing they want is some guy who’s gonna nurse a cup of coffee for the next five hours. I. Right. And it’s like, it’s like you wanna buy something, sir. And that’s a real problem. So, so there are these two coffee shops that I found. One is in Portland, which was Jola, and they were just wonderful.
They was a large enough, and, and yes, they served food and all that and they did make money off of that, but they didn’t mind because they were large enough they that, that I could sit there and they got to know me and et cetera. And then here in Charlevoix, it’s a coffee shop that makes money, not off their tables, but off of all the other stuff, the maple syrup and stuff that they buy.
And so they have no problem with me sitting again for literally six, seven hours, uh, you know, nursing this one or two cups of coffee. I’ll get a refill every once in a while. It’s like, okay, well there’s another buck you’re willing to spend. So, but yeah, I need the noise. I, I need the,
uh, the noise. Well, well, I didn’t know there were coffee shops in Portland, Oregon.
That surprises me. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Well, yeah. You have to look for them, but you’ll
find them. Yeah. Yeah. Just turn a corner and you’ll find it. Exactly. The book is, is, uh, chasing Money. Mm-Hmm. It is a tightly woven tale of greed, deception, and treachery. It says right on the front cover, I am three chapters in and I cannot wait to finish this book.
And, uh, Doug has already read it and has said that this is definitely a thriller we need to read. And you could tell it’s not just Doug and me, uh, the awards that this book has won, including the best indie book award. Congratulations, by the way, Michael, on the success. And thanks for helping our stackers, uh, know what it takes to maybe put words on paper and do the thing that you’ve been dreaming about forever.
It’s a great thing.
Well, thank you very much for having me, by the way. I’m almost done with the sequel. So, uh, and if it’s as good as the first one, uh, please invite me back. Absolutely.
Will do, man. Thank you. It’s also about money. Oh, fabulous. Well, even better. Come on back. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
All right. Well, thank you for having me.
Hi, I am David
Hirsch, and when I’m not hosting the Dad to Dad podcast for the Special Fathers Network, which is a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising kids with special needs, I’m Stacking Benjamins. And we thought that was a throwaway. And Bob still, you managed to get it wrong. That’s pretty
sad.
I realized as you were talking, I thought, you know what? The shoelace, oh, not the part of the shoe and that’s why I’m not in the shoe industry. And
that’s exactly why you became a CPA because he failed out of the shoe lace industry. True story. Yeah, true story. Oh gee. Let’s talk about the reinforced tip.
You all about the reinforced tip.
Nope, not going there. All right, well, we’ll
just move on then. Hey, time for us to help a stacker in need. ’cause you know what, Bob? There was a stacker go. Who went, you know what I should call Saul. I better call Saul. See hi and OG and Bob. Here we are. This is when, this is when a stacker, uh, really needs some financial help.
And much like Spider-Man swooping in with the answer to a financial question, does the Spider-Man handle financial questions? He doesn’t, which is why they have the three of us. So how about guys? We swoop in and help, uh, stacker Sandy with a problem. Hey Sandy. Hey Joe and OG and Doug. I stopped at my sister’s house the other day and she and her daughter were watching a video about velocity banking.
The guys talking fast writing on a whiteboard and trying to say how they could pay off a mortgage by using a heloc. The little bit I could tell it looked like a combination of a shell game, a hocus focus and robbing Peter to pay. Paul, I just wondered what your take was on It seems to me they, God be better off, pay extra on the mortgage and call it good.
No, God, please. No, no. Look forward to hearing. No what you have to say. Thank you. Oh, I think you just got Sandy OGs opinion right there with a little Steve Carell thrown in. Bob, you familiar with Velocity Banking?
Um, it’s sort of the, uh, using your credit line to, um, pay off a
loan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
So here’s the math behind it. Basically, the selling point on this is that your home equity line of credit is a simple interest calculation versus the amortized interest calculation of, you know, a 30 year mortgage. On paper, would you rather have simple interest or advertise? Well, obviously simple, right?
Especially, you know, you talk about like if you’re gonna pay extra on your house, when is it best to pay extra at the beginning of the end? Well, it’s best to pay it at the beginning. So the way that this is set up, it’s, it’s like you have your house mortgage and then you get a line of credit and you take this big line of credit, whatever it is, $200,000 heloc, and you pay off your house or you pay off a big chunk of your house.
Therefore you’ve accelerated your path on that amortization table. So now your net, your payments are gonna be a little bit lower. Uh, interest payments are gonna be a little bit lower moving forward. And you have the simple interest on the other side. On paper, you know it works. The downside is, is that now you have two payments.
Home equity interest or HELOC interest is generally market based. So right now, you know, I had a HELOC that was at 2%. For a long time them were the glory days, and now it’s sitting at Niner. Did I catch a niner in there? Yes, it’s a niner and that’s way different than my current mortgage, which is, you know, at two and a half.
So why would I pay off a two and half percent mortgage with a 9%? That doesn’t make any sense. So this is a lot, a lot less attractive, even on the math side of the equation. In fact, I would argue it probably doesn’t even work math wise anymore because of the variability of the interest rates. Plus now you have two payments.
This works really well if you have boatloads of extra cash. You know, you’re like, I’ve got 10,000 a month left over every month in my bank account and I don’t know what to do with it. And you can game this out so that you can pay a little bit less interest and you can accelerate this pay down. Well, let’s be real.
If you have a $200,000 heloc. A $0 primary, or you have a $200,000 primary mortgage and a $0 heloc, what’s the difference to your net worth? Like what’s the difference to your financial position? It’s, you know, you’re, it’s the same outcome. You know, you’re, you still have a net worth of whatever, you know, minus 200,000 in debt.
If you have just a little bit of extra pay on your house, pay the little bit on your house. Don’t go through all this, all these extra hoops to try to game the system. It’s not gonna work. If you’ve got a bunch of extra, I would say pay it on your house anyway and just, you know, $10,000 a month, just pay it off in 20 months and be done.
You know, like you don’t have to go get a line of credit and all that other sort of nonsense. So this is also a lot of, a lot of times tied with. A software solution, which is really what this company is selling probably. It’s like, Hey, we can help you figure out how to do this if you buy our software for, you know, a thousand bucks or a hundred bucks or whatever it is.
Or it’s tied to a company that sells the lines of credit, right? Like a mortgage based company or a mortgage broker of some kind. So, you know, there’s some incentive there for them to sell this, sell this dream, so to speak. Again, it’s one of those solutions that somebody out there is going, no, it worked for me, like we did it and we knocked it out and we saved all this money.
And it’s like, yep, it does. If you do it exactly right, and the stars are perfectly aligned.
I’m thinking Our friend, uh, Adam Carroll is a guy who sells those subscriptions. Yeah, that’s a great idea. And has said that it works. And I’m with you, og it works until it doesn’t. Yes, it works until it doesn’t. Yes.
And the problem is, is when it doesn’t, it can really. Come unraveled and you’re frustrated. But ma’am, when it, when it works, it works. But Bob, you were shaking your head now too. Well, there’s a couple things.
One, if you’re looking from a tax point of view, he locks no deductible interest there. But that may not be even a consideration since many people now take the standard deduction anyway under the current tax law.
So that may not be a factor. But the other thing I find when a client comes to me and says, I have this plan and I have to do 32 steps to get this amazing benefit, they’re gonna screw up one of the steps no matter what. Even with the best laid plans, I know most of my clients won’t do it right. And I just try to keep it simple with my clients because ultimately that’s easier for them to remember.
Behaviorally, I mean, behaviorally, if we don’t remember how it works, Bob, how can we have good behavior if we got no idea what step 32 is? Right? Right. It’s so frustrating. You know, this is interesting how sometimes we take these round pegs and put them in square holes. When Sandy first was describing this, I thought she was gonna be talking about infinite banking.
Ah. Which involve the other type of great banking involves insurance, right? Yeah. Involves insurance, and B, your own bank, which again, OG works until it doesn’t. And I also know, um, similar concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you, well, a, you have to have a lot of money. You stuff it inside of a life insurance policy.
The thing they don’t tell you is you can’t get all of it back initially. Mm-Hmm. You can only get back the amount beyond the surrender value. And then, and this is described great in a Money Crashers, uh, piece that I will link to in the show notes. Even then experts in this area talk about how you should probably have a consultant that works with you all the time to make sure that you don’t mess up.
Bob, to your point, the 37 steps to make sure that using your life insurance as a bank account doesn’t screw you out. A life insurance and a bank account, right? Yeah.
You know, when you look at successful people and you look at modeling out what successful people do, very rarely is the answer. Let’s make this as complicated as humanly possible.
You, and you look at the people who are around you who have done the things that you wanna do financially. A lot of times it’s, I don’t know, I just maxed out my 401k and didn’t touch it for 30 years. You know what I mean? Like that’s the boring way to do it. And I, and I keep coming back to this over the years because I think that people feel like they’re behind when.
They’re watching this. I bet that Sandy’s family who was watching this weren’t a bunch of 20 year olds. These are people who are in their fifties going, oh my gosh, I’ve still got this big mortgage. I feel behind in my savings and investing. I have no idea how to send the kids to college ’cause I haven’t thought about it yet.
I need to do something radical to catch up. And the answer is, you don’t have to do anything radical. It’s, it’s profound. The value of compounding over time, of just doing the basic simple things on repeat over and over and over again. And if you’ve got 32 steps, you’re gonna miss a step. If you’ve got one, which is get paid, transfer money into bank account, transfer money into 401k, transfer money into pay my mortgage off faster, you know, whatever the benefit of that will start to snowball.
Our problem as humans is that we can’t see compounding and we can’t see it in advance for sure. We can maybe kind of get a glimpse of it when we look in the rear view mirror and anybody who’s got, you know, a million bucks in their investment account or something like that, they can look back and go, gosh, I remember I only had 500 k five years ago.
Now I have a million. Like, oh, whoa, whoa, it worked. You know, like you can kind of get a glimpse of it in the rear view mirror, but when you sit down with a calculator and you do the math and you go, oh, I’m gonna save, you know, 6,000 in my Roth, 7,000 in my Roth for the next 30 years, what do you mean I’m gonna have $3 million?
No, that can’t be right. Erase, erase, erase, erase, try again. You know? And we just don’t have the ability to process that in our brains, so we don’t believe it. So when you’re 50 or you’re 45 and you’re going like, oh crap, I’m behind, I, you feel like you have to do all this extra stuff. To get caught up. You don’t have to.
You have plenty of time. Are you gonna retire at 55 if you haven’t saved a penny in your 50? No you’re not. But guess what? You got to retire. You’ve already been retired for the first 50 years of your life. Now you gotta work a little bit. You just
played early, right? Yeah, you did.
It is what it is, right?
So now you’re gonna work two, you’re 70, that’s fine too. ’cause people are gonna live to be a hundred like we talked about earlier. So you simplicity and compounding and just do the, do the normal stuff. You don’t have to, you don’t have to stretch, you don’t have to feel behind. If you’re 50 and you’re feeling behind, it’s not.
You’re not gonna get caught up by doing infinite banking or whatever the hell
you’re talking about here. Well, and that’s what I was thinking, Bob, when you were talking about that earlier, about people saying, you know, I should maybe put some money in an IRA, I should think about this. You know, those people feel so much regret.
And regret is like the world’s most useless emotion. It’s like you can’t go back and fix it. You just start now and go, yeah, let’s get on it. Doing the right thing
isn’t sexy. Fiscal responsibility isn’t sexy. It’s too simple. It’s, I needed to be. Bus says
you come on. Amazing. You never dress up in some financial responsibility.
Put on some very, very white. What are we gonna do tonight, honey? Financial responsibility. Ooh, we’re gonna balance the spreadsheet. Talk me about annuities. Whisper, whisper. Contracts in my ear. Whole life. Whole life. How about next 10 minutes? I, I, I dunno, even that’s ambitious, Joe. I, I think I just made myself throw up in my mouth there.
All right. Uh, but yeah, Bob, back to the point, like you can’t go back and do it. Just start now. Start. Thanks Sandy for the question. If you’ve got a question for us, we will swoop in and help head to stacky Benjamins dot com slash voicemail. OG and I and next time, maybe Doug today. Bob, uh, thanks for the help up.
We’ll be happy to take your question, but I like that the simplest answer is generally, often the right answer, uh, versus this complicated stuff. By the way, if your question is more complicated, then how do I stay out of a scheme involving 16 different accounts or life insurance? Your question is, how do I do a better job financially overall, OG and his team or taking clients?
So I had to stack your Benjamins dot com slash og. That’s the link to their calendar, and he will help you get rolling on seeing how his team can help you maybe make better financial decisions overall in the future. All right, let’s roll into gentlemen, our last segment. Bob, you’re gonna be so excited about this.
We get excited about having professional comedians like yourself on, and then rolling out some of the worst jokes you’ve ever heard. Because we’re doing this contest among our stackers. We call the Joke Off, which we took 16 math jokes. We’ve paired them against each other, and we are down to the Final Four.
And in our basement Facebook group, people can go in and, uh, can vote on these. So head to stack your Benjamins dot com slash basement, and that’ll take you right to the Facebook group. We figured out who are Last joke in was going to be because we had these jokes against each other. So Bob, you know, you’re a professional.
I’m sure you’ll see how great these, these,
these jokes
are. We had our number seven seed by Jeff and the number seven seed was, what’s the difference between taxes and taxidermy? Once cruel and inhumane, the others dealing with dead animals.
I like that as a tax
guy. You like that?
I like
that. That’s right.
Bob’s like, wait. It’s the cruel in humanity that that keeps me in business pal. Absolutely. Number 14, hear about the constipated mathematician. He worked it out with a pencil and then of course somebody in our Facebook group said, of course, that was the number two pencil. Ah, of course. Nope. Not that one to point that one to.
We go to Point. Yes to the point. I’m sure you meant that one too. So, which one of those you think won the constipated mathematician joke or the, uh, taxi and taxidermy?
Well, I’m, I’m biased. I’m gonna go with
Taxidermy Taxi and Taxidermy won by a long shot. So congratulations, Jeff. We’ll send you a email because we’re sending you a, a book by one of our recent guest who was on the show.
I’ve got tons of great books, and we’re gonna send one your way for making it to the final four. All right, guys, you guys are gonna weigh in, but you don’t have an official vote. You’re just like the, you’re just like the judges on Dancing With the Stars. You’re gonna give your opinion and then we’ll leave it up to the stackers.
So. So reach the finals. This is the number nine seed against the number four seed. The number nine seed is Jen. Jen had this one. Saw my math teacher with a piece of graph paper yesterday. I think he might be plotting something. What do you think about that one? You’re gonna tell that one on stage soon, Bob?
Uh, it’ll be a backup. It’ll be a backup. I’m gonna
save it in my back pocket for sure. Maybe you’re, you’re so, you’re so, uh, judicious with that. You’re so, it’ll be way, way, way backup
in 1920. That would be
like solid. That, that’d be fabulous. Uh, the number four joke. So this is the other one. So we’ve got, uh, Jen’s joke about plotting something versus Susie’s joke.
It’s a pretty hard time for me financially. I wasn’t able to pay the bills to my exorcist, and as a consequence, I’ve been repossessed. We made the comedian laugh with that one.
I gotta go with Susie. I, I, you know, I gotta go with Susie.
Got, got, got repossessed. og. How about you?
Uh, out of the two, I, I like the first one a little bit better.
Oh,
you do like the plotting something. See, I’m, I’m with Bob on that one. I think the Exorcist repossessed. Good dad joke. Good dad. Humor. Of course both of they worked the final foot. These are the best of the best. Bob’s like, holy crap. What were the worst ones? Like I know, hold on. You don’t wanna know. In the other bracket it’s number 11.
Seed Melvin against number seven, Jeff. Of course, we just heard the number seven that moved up Western. Receive taxes and taxidermy once. Cruel, inhumane. The other deals with dead animals. Melvin’s joke, Bob, that’s going up against, it’s this one. College is the opposite of a kidnapping. They demand a hundred thousand dollars from you or they’ll send your kid back.
That one’s good. I taxidermy,
I think is solid. The tax guy stays in his lane and goes to taxes and taxidermy. So Jeff, a pat on the back. Oh gee, how about you? Yeah, taxidermy. All right, well, we will see. We sell a joke. Everybody go to the Facebook group and cast your votes to scroll down and you’ll see that Karen, our producer of this fine show has, uh, has listed both of those.
Thanks to everybody, everybody who played. Uh, I wanna round out this batch porch segment, Bob, by talking about, you know, as we’ve had comedians on the show, we talk about this, uh, that you know, what happens on stage and, uh, are you nervous? The question we haven’t asked is just how hard it would be to put together five minutes of comedy, let alone 10 or 15.
Like how much time does it take you to put together some solid standup. Well,
it depends because I’ve had certain life experiences that like something really weird happened to the doctors and I can write that down, tell a joke, and I don’t spend any time on it. People are like, oh my God, that’s hilarious.
I’ve had other jokes that I’ve worked on for two years that I just kept fine tuning. So it really depends. If you’re looking for set up punch, set a punch, it’s gonna take a little bit longer than somebody that’s storytelling that’s had some just funny stories that have happened or is just a great storyteller, but.
Yes. The first time I was up doing three minutes, it felt like it took 20 years to get three minutes. And even that I was like, oh my God, I hope they don’t ask me to do four that God forbid, you know, now I’m like, what? What? I have to get off. Wait, I have more stuff. You’re not, but wait, hold on. But it’s, yeah, it’s hard.
It’s hard. I actually had, uh, a friend’s son who is just starting his standup journey and he’s going to the open mic night, right. And just trying to, to get on there. And he had a host that was busy talking to somebody, Bob in the back, and he was supposed to do five minutes, and they left him up there four, nine.
And Wow. He said it was painful for everybody. That’s, he’s like, my God. But at four and a half minutes he was done with his material, and then he had more and more time and he’s just looking in the back of the room and he is watching the guy who’s supposed to be coming up on stage to get him off the stage.
And he’s gotta keep talking. Oh my God.
Well see, I would’ve just said, and that’s my time, but um, I do appreciate you said that he was on a comedy journey, not a career, because it’s a big difference. Most people are on a journey with their comedy.
Well, it’s hard. We were, you know, I was reading, uh, Scott Galloway’s book for an upcoming interview we’re gonna do with him, and Scott was talking about how some of these passion careers, like even if you’re the top 1%, you’re not making money.
You gotta be in the top 0.1% to actually hit it, I think in comedy. Yeah,
absolutely. I am happy that I have my day job. I love doing comedy. I get to perform at the comedy store. I don’t need to be on the road. I don’t need to be making millions. I don’t need to be super famous. Um, but those that are really hoping for it, yeah, it’s, it’s a long shot.
I mean, the Comedy Store and probably every comedy club, but the Comedy store, it’s used to, you know, we crush more dreams than we make happen, right? We crush
more dreams. Put that on a t-shirt, ISN, that your tagline. The, the Comedy Store. We crush, we crush.
Um, you know, and because it’s, it’s so hard and look, a lot of people, especially the comedy store has impacted so many people in the industry, whether they’re actors or producers or direct, like night show hosts, like the comedy stores had that.
But we crush a lot of dreams because Mitzi never encouraged mediocrity. She’s like, don’t encourage it.
Last question. When you see up and coming comedians, are there truly comedians that are overlooked and don’t get their break, or are the good ones like, wow, the good ones. They get lost
and missed all the time.
Really. There are brilliant comics out there, just like they’re brilliant actors, but there are so many comics that just never get the light of day. They don’t get the right space, they don’t get seen. But, uh, you know, you gotta keep showing up and hope you get your moment.
You know, when you and I talk last, you’ve got a fantastic podcast, uh, money you should ask.
Yeah. You, you guys were talking about maybe changing the format up a little bit there. Uh, have you done that? What’s coming up on money you should ask?
Yeah, we’re starting to do some solo episodes, so doing two episodes a month, it’s gonna be solo episodes, talking about either practical, one will be practical money and tax and all that.
And the other one’s gonna be focusing on the, the money mindset, because that’s still the biggest thing holding so many people back. That mindset, I don’t deserve it, I can’t do it. Everybody else can have success. It’s just a matter of. Diving in and actually dealing
with it. So it’s so wild. How much of it’s between your ears?
And the longer we do this og, the more we see that it isn’t, it isn’t about the, you know, everybody’s looking for the big huge hack to Yeah. Use a hack term, but they, they don’t get it. O og. It truly is just do the little things.
It’s a simplicity. You have to simplify before you can multiply. That’s a great phrase from our, from our coaching program, as you know.
And, and I think there’s so much chaos that goes on with money just trying to keep it straight. Take a look at something as simple as like credit card reward points. And, you know, I’m kind of a junkie when it comes to that, like trying to keep that straight. Even if you’re not using, you know, not using a credit card, you have to like pay attention to it and make sure it doesn’t get hacked.
And you know, like there’s so many different parts of finance and if you’re trying to be on the right path, the first place to start isn’t. Go open 32 credit cards. It’s not go do infinite banking. It’s, it’s, you know, have a cash reserve, pay off your consumer credit card bills. You know, it’s, it’s the little things in the right order every time.
Always works. I. So,
so,
so
important. And by the way, money should ask available where finer podcasts are distributed, correct? Absolutely.
We do not do the Less Fine podcast. No,
no, of course not. Podcast platform. Yes. Yeah. Only the platforms are Stacking. Benjamins is on the finest one. So pause right now, the finest.
Go give a listen to Bob’s awesome show. We’ll link to it in the show notes. If you, thank you. If you forget, Bob, thanks for joining us again, man, and being our ride along mentor today. I super appreciate it. Especially during tax time. You got other stuff you gotta
be doing? Hey man, I just missed a deduction on somebody, but
that’s okay.
That’s okay. He’s gonna deduct it from our paycheck, right? But m bum, I appreciate it. Always fun. Alright Doug, you got it From here man. What are our big takeaways today? So
what should we do based on what we’ve learned today? First, take some advice from Bob OG and Joe planning your retirement. Think 30 years while you can’t go back and change the past.
You can begin right now. Pause this podcast and get rolling. Gimme about 30 seconds ’cause I’ve only got a couple of more of these. And then, yeah, then you can get started. Second, thinking about using insurance for another purpose other than insurance or for using complicated methods to pay down debt.
While these methods can work, there are much simpler methods that will help you keep on keeping on. Don’t overcomplicate your life. Let the big lesson. Don’t use this process of elimination thing in your everyday life. Joe’s mom never said I could not not eat all of her chocolate chip cookies, and now I’m washing windows again.
Cautionary tale kids, don’t let this happen to you.
The show is the property of SP podcasts LLC, copyright 2024, and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy. Our producer is Karen Reine. This show is written by Lisa Curry, who’s also the host of the Long Story Long podcast. With help from me, Joe Kate Yakin, Karen Reine, and Doc G from the Earn and Invest podcast, Kevin Bailey helps us take a deeper dive into all the topics covered on each episode in our newsletter called the 2 0 1.
You’ll find the 4 1 1 on All Things Money at the 2 0 1. Just visit Stacking Benjamins dot com slash 2 0 1. Wonder how beautiful we all are. Of course you do, but you’ll never know if you don’t. Check out our YouTube version of the show Engineered by Tina Ichenberg. Then you’ll see once and for all that I’m the best thing going for this podcast.
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So say hello. When you see us posting online to join all the basement fun with other stackers, type Stacking Benjamins dot com slash basement. For more interactive fun, join us on Instagram every Tuesday and Thursday for our Instagram lives. Kate Yakin and Joe host those weekly. Not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know.
This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s Mom’s Neighbor, Doug, and we’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.
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