Want your kids to grow into confident money decision-makers without turning every dinner conversation into a financial lecture? In this roundtable episode, Joe sits down with Livia (“Liv”) Roder, host of the Liv Lab Podcast, Karen Holland of GiftingSense.org, and John Lanza, host of the Art of Allowance Podcast to explore what actually helps kids understand money before the stakes get big.
Instead of theory, this discussion focuses on real moments when money suddenly becomes real: college price tags, house-hunting sticker shock, allowances that run out too fast, and purchases that teach better lessons than any lecture ever could. The panel shares practical ways families can build financial confidence through everyday decisions, honest conversations, and a willingness to let kids learn by doing.
What the Stacking Benjamins “Confident Explorer” will gain from this episode:
- How to talk about money naturally so kids see it as a life skill, not a stressful taboo topic
- Why modeling everyday behavior matters more than formal “money talks”
- A simple shift from “Can I have it?” to “Is it worth it?” that builds independent thinking
- How small spending mistakes become powerful teaching moments when handled without shame
- Ways to introduce big topics like college costs gradually so kids feel informed instead of overwhelmed
Real-life money lessons that sparked the conversation:
- Livia’s moments when money suddenly felt real, from college forms to realizing savings aren’t just “bank numbers”
- Karen Holland’s memorable eighth-grade back-to-school budget experiment
- Early allowance experiences that helped connect choices with consequences
- Why kids absorb far more from overheard conversations and daily habits than parents expect
Practical strategies parents can use right away:
- Starting with simple allowance systems or “jars” to visualize spending, saving, and giving
- Karen’s “Does It Make Sense?” pause to slow impulsive purchases
- Joe’s “circle back” technique, revisiting purchases later to reflect without criticism
- Letting kids fail safely so regret becomes learning instead of embarrassment
- Helping kids split costs or contribute toward purchases to create ownership
Navigating tougher parenting questions:
- Should kids see financial stress, or should parents shield them?
- How to practice age-appropriate honesty without creating anxiety
- Why financial jargon like FAFSA or taxes can unintentionally intimidate teens
- Bringing kids into real financial conversations so they build confidence early
Money challenges unique to today’s kids:
- Teaching spending awareness in a tap-to-pay, frictionless world
- Cash vs. cards vs. apps and how each changes behavior
- Building a “pause habit” before spending when transactions feel invisible
If you could teach just one money skill…
The panel compares their top priorities:
- Awareness of cash flow and where money actually goes
- Thinking before buying instead of reacting emotionally
- Paying yourself first and building saving habits early
Plus, a little basement fun along the way:
- Favorite purchases that truly felt worth it (from snowboards to board games to a Kindle)
- Stories that prove money lessons stick best when tied to real experiences
- Resources and next steps from each guest, including tools, calculators, and upcoming episodes
This episode reinforces a core Stacking Benjamins idea: kids don’t learn money through perfect decisions. They learn through guided experience, honest conversations, and the freedom to practice while the stakes are still small.
Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.StackingBenjamins.com/201
Enjoy!
Our Topic: Teaching your kids about money
During our conversation, you’ll hear us mention:
- Money felt real
- Allowance lessons
- Spending your money
- Splitting the cost
- Comfort talking money
- Middle school “interest”
- Parent money stress
- Age appropriate honesty
- Family problem solving
- Financial jargon fear
- FAFSA and forms
- Advisor meeting inclusion
- Investing curiosity
- Values based spending
- Underused gifts
- Landfill awareness
- Circle back technique
- Best purchase reflections
- Anticipation effect
- Six year old tactics
- Three jar system
- Negotiating allowance
- Middle school trade offs
- High school job
- Cash versus digital
Our Contributors
A big thanks to our contributors! You can check out more links for our guests below.
Liv Rotor
Another thanks to Liv Rotor for joining our contributors this week! Hear more from Liv on her show, THE LIV LAB at THE LIV LAB – Learn. Innovate. Venture..
Check out HIS/HER newly released book Name Of Book.
Karen Holland
Big thanks to Karen Holland for joining us today. To learn more about Karen, visit Gifting Sense® – Early Financial Education.
John Lanza
Big thanks to John Lanza for joining us today. To learn more about John, visit The Art of Allowance Project. Grab yourself a copy of the books The Art of Allowance: A Short, Practical Guide to Raising Money-Smart, Money-Empowered Kids
Doug’s Game Show Trivia
- Write the trivia question here
Mentioned in today’s show
- The DIMS SCORE Calculator: https://giftingsense.org/
Join Us on Monday!
Tune in on Monday when we’ll chat about exactly WHAT Suze Orman thinks today AND what that might mean for your own money.
Miss our last show? Check it out here: Best Tax Software for 2026 (And Handling Market Drops).
Written by: Kevin Bailey
Episode transcript
[00:00:00] opener: You’re going to end up eating a steady diet of government cheese and living in a band down by the river,[00:00:12] Doug: live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters. It’s. The Stacking Benjamin Show.
[00:00:28] Doug: I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. And how do you talk to kids about money? On today’s special round table discussion, we pair a Family Money podcast host a kids in money expert, and a senior in high school. To talk all things families, money, discussions, and important lessons. And now a guy who raised two kids of his own who somehow turned out okay, it’s Joe.
[00:00:54] Joe: I can’t tell you guys how long I’ve been waiting to have this conversation. So let’s meet the participants that are gonna help us have better family conversations. First of all, let’s go to the woman who I’ve been working with closely for the past. Year. She is a senior in high school, about to transition to college.
[00:01:16] Joe: Say hi to the person behind the Liv Lab. Believe it or not, her name is Liv Crazy. Liv Rotor’s here. How are you, Liv?
[00:01:24] Liv: I’m good. How are you? I’m so excited to be here.
[00:01:27] Joe: Well, I’m so happy that you’re here and as you know, we’ve been planning this for a little while, you and I, but tell everybody about your awesome show that our mutual friend Doc G introduced me to, which led to you and I spending a lot of time talking about our podcast together.
[00:01:40] Liv: So I host the live lab, and it is all about careers and setting yourself up as you get into college and even after college. It’s a live lab, so like we’re figuring out life together. I, in no way am like a professional or know what I’m doing. We’re just exploring together.
[00:01:55] Joe: I absolutely love that and I love the questions you ask, and isn’t it cool that you get to ask some of these pros in different areas, all these personal questions that you wouldn’t be able to ask in real life.
[00:02:05] Liv: Yeah, I love it. And I love it so much because I get to meet so many different people. I get to meet people in finance like you, and then people in various different careers. And just recently I talked to a communication specialist. I got to talk about communication. So it’s so fun.
[00:02:19] Joe: It is. It’s super fun.
[00:02:21] Joe: And every episode is a new adventure, so it’s a live lab by the way, we’re gonna link to all these awesome folks stuff on our show notes page at stack your Benjamins dot com. Just a couple months ago, you heard from this woman on the show. She is the brain behind the incredible gifting sets.org. Karen Holland joins us.
[00:02:38] Joe: How are you?
[00:02:39] Karen: I’m good, Joe. How are you?
[00:02:40] Joe: I’m, I’m fantastic and I’m so happy you and I got to work together November and what fun it was. Helping you get the word out about your amazing tool in the work that you do, and also kind of to beat up on our friends, Joel and Matt a little bit.
[00:02:54] Karen: Well, it was a lot of fun.
[00:02:55] Karen: It was probably the biggest, most intensive podcast experience I’ve had. I enjoyed sharing snippets with my husband and son.
[00:03:03] Joe: And for people that don’t know about you, maybe they’re new to the stacker world. Karen, tell everybody about the important work that you do in teaching kids maybe to make better decisions about money.
[00:03:13] Karen: Well, I’m really excited to hear about the live, live lib because I think that you and I are totally aligned. ’cause here’s my dream scenario that when people go to negotiate their position in their first starting salary pay band, they’re so comfortable talking about money. They can do it with total ease and comfort.
[00:03:36] Karen: so@giftingsense.org, we help people, parents, teachers, community leaders, any adult, help their kids, students, scouts, whatever it is, learn to think before they buy. And the reason we do this is because early success with pausing, gathering information and reflecting before spending money. Really primes the demand pump for the more sophisticated financial information you need later in life when it’s relevant and helpful.
[00:04:04] Karen: But the thing is, you don’t start with that conversation, right? You don’t start saying, now tell me about the starting salary pay bands, and where do I sit in them and how do I move through them? That’s not the conversation you start with. The conversation you start with is, what do I really want? How much is it gonna take?
[00:04:19] Karen: What trade-offs do I have to make and how much my own money am I willing to spend? Like the smaller questions, right? But all of those smaller questions have one goal in mind, which is to prepare you to be super comfortable asking the big questions when they matter.
[00:04:33] Joe: That is specifically Karen, why I was so happy we were able to partner with you, your time working with the families and the kids that we’re gonna be talking about today.
[00:04:44] Joe: I think it’s gonna be super valuable for our stackers today. Just like Liv, your experience of the last 18 years is gonna be super, super helpful to our stackers and. You know, I needed the guy who talks about this on a wide band then to be a part of this conversation, because while I talk about this at Stacky Benjamins from time to time, he’s talking about families and having these conversations nonstop.
[00:05:08] Joe: What would this conversation be like without my better looking smarter brother by another mother? He’s, he’s the host of Art of Allowance podcast, John Lanza here. How are you, man?
[00:05:20] John: I’m good. The checks in the mail, Joe for that. Uh, wonderful intro. I appreciate that.
[00:05:25] Joe: I’ve been shaking ‘
[00:05:26] John: cause I haven’t talked to you in about six months, so how have you been?
[00:05:29] John: It has been quite a while. I’ve been great. And now Karen, I have to say, we actually, we were telling jokes about starting salary pay bands at the dinner table last night, so I don’t know, I think that just is something we. To do. I’m kidding. I’m kidding.
[00:05:42] Karen: Well, I was gonna say, I wondered if your ears were burning on Monday and Tuesday because I was at a school and a lot of the kids were kind of coveting that they didn’t get allowance.
[00:05:51] Karen: So I was telling the teacher in charge of the grade eights, I’m like, okay, there are two great books, art of Allowance, the Wisest Investment. I’m like, it doesn’t matter if they give allowance for chores without chores, whatever. Just like read these books, they’ll really help you. ’cause you know you money’s like everything else.
[00:06:08] Karen: You gotta practice to get better.
[00:06:10] Joe: Well, and what’s cool, John, that I think about your podcast is when I first heard the name of your podcast, I thought it was all about giving allowances, but it’s our of allowance, which is a much bigger, you’ve got this double entendre there on purpose, John.
[00:06:24] John: Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
[00:06:25] John: And it’s one of those things that the book kind of was, put the book out there, but the podcast has really brought it to life. Having conversations with you, Joe, with Karen, uh, maybe at some point we’ll have live on. It’s taken on a life of its own because I learned something new in every conversation and that’s what makes it super fun.
[00:06:46] John: And then you can kind of bring it all back together and hopefully today some of that I can make some coherent points that might be useful to, uh, to some stackers out there. But I’ll let them be the judge.
[00:06:57] Joe: I think you’re gonna be able to do that. I could predict that ahead of time that I think that that’s.
[00:07:02] Joe: That’s going to happen. Another thing I can predict is that not only are we gonna have a great discussion, we have a few sponsors that help us make sure that we can podcast. And none of this costs our stackers any money. So we’re gonna hear from them right now and then we’ll come back as, uh, John, Karen, and Liv.
[00:07:21] Joe: Dive in to help us have better family money conversations and help our kids, our nephews, our nieces, neighborhood kids make better money decisions.
[00:07:40] Joe: Let’s just start with some stories about, you know, money and communication. And Liv, I think I’ll start with you. When you think about the first time money felt real in your life, like really you had this aha that it wasn’t just about mom or dad buying something or some relative bringing something to the table.
[00:07:59] Joe: It was money do. Do you remember that? Do you remember where you were? What was going on?
[00:08:05] Liv: I don’t think it was one moment specifically, but I think it was just like a gradual, as I grew up, my parents never had the sit down conversation of, Hey, here’s how money works. This is what it was. It was more gradual When I started getting allowances, when I started spending my own money, when I started realizing, okay, what I want has a cost, I can buy everything that I want in a day.
[00:08:26] Liv: When. My parents were like looking at different houses to buy when my brother went to college. Seeing how expensive college is and understanding that money is, it’s not just like a number, but it has like value. It has like a price tag. So I think it was like a gradual, like progression, understanding it.
[00:08:43] Joe: When did your parents get a new house?
[00:08:45] Liv: For one period of time we were looking at different houses.
[00:08:48] Joe: Okay.
[00:08:48] Liv: We ended up staying in the same house, but then we were looking at like million dollar houses. We would tour houses and then I would see the coolest house ever. Like this amazing house, and I was like, guys, like let’s find that Like, that’s like such a cool house.
[00:09:01] Liv: They’re like, Hmm, like a bit Hoover, a prize budget. I was like, what do you mean? Like this is so cool.
[00:09:06] Joe: It’s funny because I think a million dollars in the area doesn’t that buy like a Subaru down by the beach and you sleep in the back.
[00:09:14] Liv: It’s tiny.
[00:09:15] Joe: Yeah. Yeah. It’s getting
[00:09:16] Liv: smaller.
[00:09:16] Joe: It’s, it’s not much. John, do you remember when money really felt real to you?
[00:09:21] John: I, the one thing I remember in particular with my parents and money was they wanted me to stop sucking my thumb at like age seven or eight. Right. I was like, Linus Van Pelt and I’m walking. I probably have to explain that. Liv’s gonna be like, who’s Linus Van Pelt? Do you know peanuts? Liv?
[00:09:40] Liv: Yeah. Is a great
[00:09:41] John: comic strip, so
[00:09:42] Liv: yes, yes, yes.
[00:09:43] John: Anyway, I was stucking my thumb, so they, they decided they were going to bri me by getting me a Lego helicopter. At the same time, they started an allowance with that and the whole thing just kind of went the, the copter went down like it was Black hawk down, like everything that they had this idea that they were trying to make happen, which was allowance and bribery and, and my parents were wonderful, but we never really got the money conversation off the ground from a young age for some reason.
[00:10:14] John: And that’s kind of stuck in my memory. So it’s part of the reason that I kind of. Got into this whole idea of allowance because you have to kind of commit to it on a longer term basis, and we didn’t really get that opportunity to do that.
[00:10:27] Joe: It’s interesting to me that for Liv, you know, Liv, it felt like your early discussions around money, it was choice and kind of, you kind of felt the money pressure, you know, of the family deciding your brother going to college or buying this different house.
[00:10:43] Joe: For John, I think it’s interesting, like the intention of what parents wanted, which often happens, right? With what really ends up transpiring. Karen, what was it for you that you remember early on?
[00:10:56] Karen: Well, you know, I had a very different experience. My mother was a kindergarten teacher and she was pretty deliberate about everything.
[00:11:02] Karen: I know that Tim Geitner is credited with Plan Beats. No plan, but I always like to tell everybody. I’m pretty sure my mother said it first.
[00:11:08] Joe: So, Tim got it from your mom?
[00:11:09] Karen: Tim got it from my mom and the summer between seventh and eighth grade she had, I have a twin sister. She had my twin sister and I make a list of everything we thought we needed to, you know, go into grade eight.
[00:11:21] Karen: Loaded for bear. We went to town. We made this huge list. We thought it was super comprehensive. And we added up all the money we needed to buy that. And she was like, okay, no problem. And, and she, she gave us that amount of money, which I think it was $79, which, you know, at the beginning of grade eight, like why not a million?
[00:11:37] Karen: Right? Sure. Right. We were kind of like, why are we even going to school? We’re loaded. Okay. Of course she was so smart ’cause she knew $79 was not enough to get all her back to school clothes and Gia, her smells terrific. Shampoo and Bonnie Bell lip Smackers and I. Blew it. I bought a pair of Burgundy penny loafers, burgundy, finally back, what is it, like 60 years later, right?
[00:12:01] Karen: Burgundy’s made a big comeback this winter. Then I couldn’t do anything. I couldn’t go to the movies. I couldn’t. Pizza when it was pizza day in the cafeteria. And I think back to, you know, my mother could have given me another five or $10, but she held her ground. And then when you become a parent, you realize how actually hard it is to hold your grand.
[00:12:21] Karen: Like, trust me, Liv, your parents are somewhere going like, oh, is she gonna be okay? Like, we really wanna give in, but we know if we give in, like it doesn’t serve her long term. Like it’s so hard. I give her so much credit because that was kind of the beginning of the end. And ever since then we’ve just. My sisters and I can stretch a dollar like nobody.
[00:12:40] Karen: We have one girlfriend who says, you two are Olympic dollar stretchers, and she goes, and I’m not talking silver or bronzes. Gold
[00:12:47] Joe: values and choices. Mom really taught
[00:12:49] Karen: plan beats no plan.
[00:12:51] Joe: So money intentionally is spoken in your house. Then it sounds like Karen, like mom, very intentional about it. Liv, it sounds like parents involving you guys in some of the big decisions, but you and your brother didn’t have sit down meetings with your parents to talk about money at all.
[00:13:04] Joe: I
[00:13:05] Liv: don’t think it was like a sit down, but I think they just served as role models in general and like the way that they spent and the way they saved. Since I can remember when we would get money from birthdays or from grandparents or for Christmas, I’ve like always had a Bing account. So then we would walk down the street to the bank account, drop it off, and I would always get this little receipt of how much money I had.
[00:13:26] Liv: And at that time it was just like a number. I didn’t understand the value, but just doing that practice over and over and then. I remember one day it hit, my mom was like, oh, why don’t you save some of that money instead of putting it in your bank account, why don’t you spend it? And I was like, what? Like, no, like I spend your guys’ money.
[00:13:42] Liv: My money goes to the bank, your wallet goes to the store. And my mom was like, no. It’s like your money that you can spend sometimes. So it was small moments like that. And then understanding of some of the money, I wanna save up ’cause I like when the number on the ticket from the bank goes up, but then some money also, I get to save and spend.
[00:14:01] Joe: That is funny ’cause we were having this discussion the other day that when it was my parents’ money, oh, that was, that was great. But it was the first time my parents was like, well, you can spend your money. I’m like, whoa. Wait. What? What the hell? What whatcha talking about
[00:14:14] Karen: here? You know, when we run parent child workshops or when we, it talks at schools, we say all the time, the quickest way to move the conversation from can I have it to, is it worth it, is to offer to split the cost.
[00:14:27] Karen: Because kids spend their money very differently than how all of a sudden you’re like, oh, hmm, maybe not.
[00:14:35] John: Yeah. And I think that’s one of the best parts about allowance that parents realize is that when you’re shifting the locus of control from you. Making the decisions to the kid, making the decisions.
[00:14:46] John: They have the same kind of realization that Liv had, which is, it’s my money now and I’m gonna spend it much more smartly than I would’ve spent your money.
[00:14:55] Joe: John, I think the first time I ever talked about our allowance with our twins was on your podcast.
[00:15:00] John: Hmm.
[00:15:01] Joe: The hard thing about the allowance for me as a parent was.
[00:15:05] Joe: Giving my kids the ability to mess it up and not say anything, letting them go ahead and make the bad decision. Although I think, and, and Karen, we’ll get into your tool in a second, which I think really would’ve been forward thinking, had that been around when my kids were young. My daughter, I remember one time she bought something at Target that clearly.
[00:15:28] Joe: Was gonna sit on the floor, she was gonna use it. One time she was buying something that was just trash. And as a parent, I knew it and I was gonna tell her not to do it. And it took so much courage for me to just sit back and let her buy it and put on my calendar for two weeks later to circle back and go.
[00:15:47] Joe: Hey, where’s that thing you bought? And that was for me, very, very difficult to do. ’cause Karen, I think you said it earlier, you really don’t wanna see your kids. It’s so hard to hold back and to not do that.
[00:15:59] Karen: I, I don’t, one way I always make the kids laugh in workshop is I’m like, I, okay, I’ve got news flash.
[00:16:04] Karen: Your parents kind of dig ya. They actually really want you to be happy. Like it’s a blue ribbon day for them. When you ask for something and they can say yes, it’s actually really hard to have these arguments all the time. Not a good time for them.
[00:16:18] Joe: Not at all. Grounding kids, so frustrating. Liv, I have a question for you, ’cause you’re, you’re closest to the ground on this one.
[00:16:26] Joe: When adults talk about money around kids, there’s things that adults think that kids hear versus what kids actually hear. What are kids actually hearing when they hear their parents talk about money? I
[00:16:40] Liv: dunno. I think that’s a hard one, but for me, I think how complex it is sometimes, sometimes when my parents bring up money, it seems kind of straightforward or simple.
[00:16:50] Liv: And maybe that’s also because they don’t talk about it as explicitly. But then to go to college, you need to fill out all these forms, like the FAFSA forms and the CSS forms. And the FAFs though, one. I kind of get by on my own. But then there was this other form, the amount of like terms and like numbers on there and like symbols and different questions I felt lost.
[00:17:10] Liv: The amount of numbers on like tax reports, I like feel lost and I think just understanding the complexity, it’s like I can even wrap my head around that. So in a way, I would say that.
[00:17:20] Joe: Are you picking up more though? Like your parents are having a financial conversation? Let’s say you’re driving down the road, parents are having a financial conversation in the front seat.
[00:17:28] Joe: Are you picking up more about what they’re talking about about money than they think you’re picking up on?
[00:17:34] Liv: I think sometimes. Yeah. But I don’t know.
[00:17:36] Joe: John, you talk about this type of stuff with a lot of guests. You think kids are picking up a lot more of what parents are laying down than parents expect?
[00:17:44] John: I do think so, because I think the key way that we learn as. As kids and money or Q, all of us learn is through experience. But the second key one, since I already threw my parents under the bus, and if they listen to this, I’m gonna feel real terrible. I do wanna say they’ll be in your
[00:17:58] Joe: memoir, John. They’ll
[00:18:00] John: be in your memoir.
[00:18:01] John: They were fantastic role models. So I could see the modeling of frugality, which was great, right? So at least maybe I can get some cred back with my parents. But the main thing is your kids are watching that and, and there’s actually research that says, you know, experience is number one. But learning from what the parents are doing is probably number two.
[00:18:23] John: I actually think school is probably number three in terms of actual behavior change. Not necessarily in terms of knowledge acquisition, but in terms of behavior change. And so they are very much picking up on what you’re talking about, especially just your sense of money. Like are you positive about money?
[00:18:38] John: Are you positive about wealth? Are you negative about wealth? Those things I think, really do imprint on kids. I’d be curious, Liv, did money ever, did you get, did you get a more positive sense of money or a negative sense? And how did that change over time? I’m curious you’ve had you had any of those kind of feelings?
[00:18:57] Liv: I think overall I had a positive way, a positive sense about money. It was like a tool, like my parents were never crazy frugal in the sense that money isn’t something that you should spend. It’s only saving, saving, saving. But they also always had it in mind that it was saving. So I think growing up. Yeah, it was overall positive and we would have nice things.
[00:19:16] Liv: We would go to nice dinners, we would go on vacations, but it was never, that scarcity wasn’t something that we didn’t have to worry about. There was always a limit, and especially now when my brother goes to college and now I’m going to college. It’s like this conversation. Oh, how much does a college that you apply to?
[00:19:31] Liv: How much does a college that you’re going to cost? If this is a safety school, is this such a high price tag worth it? If it’s a better school, how can we make it work? But I think overall it was a positive sense in the sense that it’s both something that you should save and spend. So finding that balance.
[00:19:49] Joe: Do you feel pressure to choose a college that is more affordable? Let’s say you’ve got two choices. One that is a private school costs a lot more money versus a public and state school.
[00:20:00] Liv: Definitely a hundred percent. My parents might say a. Yeah, well if you get into this good school and it’s X amount of money, we would still support you.
[00:20:09] Liv: We can pay for it. But it’s also like, I don’t wanna screw them over, you know? Like this is money that I’m taking away from like their future, their retirement, what they want. I have goals, but they also do. And if there’s another school that costs a lot less, then I’m not gonna just say no to that one because there’s this other school.
[00:20:28] Liv: That I like more. So I think, not that there’s a, the sense of guilt, but there’s just like the sense of what’s the price tag I’m looking at?
[00:20:35] Karen: You know what? That strikes me as a really healthy sense of awareness. That’s exactly where I would want my daughter to be. You get it. You’re not gonna make a choice based on price alone because those choices don’t work either, but you are price aware.
[00:20:50] Karen: I think that’s. Spot on.
[00:20:52] Liv: And like you said, split the half. If I were to pay, ’cause thankfully I’m in a position where my parents are offering to pay my college tuition, but if I were to need to pay half of the tuition, damn. Like would the college I go to Like, would that look differently?
[00:21:05] Joe: That is an important question.
[00:21:06] Joe: Good question. And it’s a wonderful question to ask Karen. I’m thinking about the age that your tool is squarely aimed at middle schoolers. Our wonderful intern Deani. She does some help working with middle schoolers and she was telling me yesterday how much she dislikes it ’cause she said that they just aren’t interested.
[00:21:26] Joe: And I was a guy that met my spouse coaching middle school track. And I remember thinking that when I first started working with middle schoolers that they weren’t interested at all. And I found out through three wonderful years, they’re hella interested.
[00:21:39] Karen: You gotta keep it real. You gotta
[00:21:40] Joe: keep
[00:21:40] Karen: it real
[00:21:41] Joe: a hundred percent.
[00:21:42] Joe: Keep it
[00:21:42] Karen: real.
[00:21:43] Joe: And they’re hearing about comments about rich people, you know, and people say quote rich people or how their parents are talking about their jobs, or if there’s any stress around vacations or holidays or Liv’s talking about, you know, going to college. They’re feeling every single feeling.
[00:22:00] Joe: They’re just not showing it on their face. I think like a lot of parents might.
[00:22:03] Karen: Well, and what we like to say is most family arguments about money. Really stem from answering the question, what’s the big deal? Right? What’s the big deal? I just wanna do whatever. When you take a few minutes, pause, gather information, and reflect everybody’s singing from the same song sheet.
[00:22:20] Karen: And you know what the big deal is? Like you take the example of just an afternoon, the movies. I promise you the big deal is not the $10 movie ticket, it’s the fact that you need another $20 for popcorn and soda and you have to get to the theater and back safely, and your parents might have previous commitments.
[00:22:35] Karen: So it’s just getting everybody to understand what the other person has to contend with to execute this transaction. And the beauty of that is when it happens, all of a sudden the kids are like, oh, right, I, I forgot Graham had soccer. We had to take Nana somewhere. I’ll see if so-and-so’s parents can drive.
[00:22:53] Karen: That’s all it takes. Just walk around in someone else’s shoes.
[00:22:57] Joe: What about Karen? The piece of human development? You know, sometimes you’ll see parents explaining to a kindergartner the logistics of why we can’t do X because I don’t have money in the bank account. The kindergar it’s way over their head.
[00:23:08] Karen: Right?
[00:23:08] Joe: On the other hand, you see people treating seniors in high school like Liv, like they’re a kindergartner. You’re like, maybe, maybe you should be involving them a little more. How do you know as a parent that you are getting that connection, especially with some middle schoolers that don’t show it on their face?
[00:23:23] Karen: I always like to take the lead from the kids. Like people are always asking me what’s the perfect age, and I’m like, there is no perfect age. I do, however, think there’s a perfect time and the perfect time to talk about money is when your kids want something. That’s when they’re all ears, that’s when they’re gonna be much more amenable.
[00:23:40] Karen: So the question often dictates how sophisticated the answer could be. It’s funny, I was just at a school earlier in the week and at middle school students and they wanted to start a financial literacy club. And wow, you should have seen the mandate they gave themselves. I mean, I’m not sure Jerome Powell could have handled this in 12 weeks.
[00:23:56] Karen: And I was like, okay, okay. I’m like, you guys are in grade eight. How about we try this frame? Why don’t you think back to when you were in grade five, what did you wanna know about money? What were you curious about coming into middle school and you’re going to high school next year? What would you like to know about money going into high school?
[00:24:16] Karen: Why don’t we try to frame the club around answering those two sets of questions? Take your lead from the kids.
[00:24:24] Joe: In the second half of today’s discussion, what I want to dive into first is kind of a continuation of where we left off. And John, I’ll let you think about this during the break, which is, ’cause I’m gonna start with you ’cause you’ve had a lot of these conversations.
[00:24:35] Joe: Which is this messy piece, right? Is it better for kids to see money work or to see money worry with parents? Or is it better to shield them from it? So we’re gonna start with that when we get back. Then we’re gonna go age by age. How do we begin talking, having this conversation, Karen, that you’re talking about with kids?
[00:24:52] Joe: Maybe, you know, how do I introduce ’em to money concepts, 4, 5, 6, 7 years old. What do we do then? And then middle school and then high schoolers, and we’ll also live, we’re gonna dive into. Your transition, like as we help kids leave the nest, how do we help them become more responsible adults? So that’s coming up in just a moment.
[00:25:13] bumper: Hey. Hey, this is Tiffany Grant from The Money Talk with TIFF podcast. And when I’m not sprinkling business and money gyms everywhere, I’m Stacking Benjamin’s.
[00:25:22] Joe: I am super happy for the second half of this conversation and really to talk tactics with different age groups. But John, I posed this question before the break.
[00:25:32] Joe: If you’re worried about money, is it okay from all the conversations you’ve had with so many guests? What do they say about, if you’re worried about money, if you’re not sure you’re gonna make the rent payment, or you know, you’re not sure if your retirement’s okay, is it okay for your kids to see your money work or to see you worry about money?
[00:25:49] John: Well, you do have to handle it in an age appropriate manner. If you’re worried about making the rent, you don’t wanna scare your five-year-old. But the, I think the best thing you can do is that, first of all, kids are going to know if something’s up, right? Because they’re gonna feel your stress. I mean, I, I’m sure Liv can attest to this, like if things, if your parents are stressed, you know they’re stressed, even if they’re trying to hide it from you, actually the hiding is probably part of the reason that you sense that they’re stressed.
[00:26:17] John: One of the best pieces of advice I heard from a counselor one time, and I’m forgetting who it was, but I thought it made a lot of sense, which is that just involve the kids in the issue. For example, if you are between work and your income is down. You can talk to your kids about the fact that we may not be able to, you know, go out to dinner or we might have to cut back on certain things and we might want to, and actually I remember Joe, you saying that you did this with your kids, where you incentivized them to use less energy in the house by paying them, I think half of the savings on the bill.
[00:26:51] John: It’s that kind of idea, which is. The kids wanna participate in the solution for the family. So figuring out a way, in an age appropriate way to recognize they’re going to see that you’re worried and then they’re gonna be a part of the solution to get you to bridge this gap from, we’re very concerned to, we’re gonna get the ship, you know, headed in the right direction.
[00:27:13] John: Again,
[00:27:14] Karen: I really like that John, because one family therapist told me that all kids wanna know is that it’s gonna be okay.
[00:27:23] John: Yeah,
[00:27:23] Karen: right. No. Nobody thinks they’re gonna live in fantasy land. They know there’s an issue and they actually feel empowered when you involve them. And as long as they know that you’re gonna be okay, you’re, you know, you’re thinking about a plan.
[00:27:35] Karen: To your point, they can be part of the solution because they do know. And all the secrecy, like what they imagine is nine times out of 10 a thousand times worse than reality.
[00:27:44] John: Yeah, you hit on such a key word. It’s the empowerment side, because that’s really what we’re talking about in this whole conversation, right?
[00:27:51] John: We want to be having these conversations with kids as young as possible so that they feel empowered to be able to come up with the solutions like we just talked about, or in the case of they want something, they have some method of doing it. Gifting sense helps them do that. I always talk about like with young kids, to your point, Karen, when they get an allowance, the most attentive they’re gonna be is when they go to the store.
[00:28:13] John: They want something and they don’t have the money for it. That’s when you set a goal, put a picture of the goal on the jar, and now you’re starting this path to learning about how money can be empowering to them,
[00:28:24] Joe: and then it gets
[00:28:25] Karen: excited. The jargon piece lives when you said the FAFSA forms are filled with all these.
[00:28:29] Karen: Acronyms, you know, like the, the gold standard for measuring whether or not financial literacy works. The economists call it the intervention works. It’s this thing called a randomized control trial. So they take 20 kids and 10 kids get the treatment, they get the intervention, they get the class, and 10 kids don’t.
[00:28:44] Karen: And then, you know, 20 years later you compare them except no parent alive. Everyone wants to put their child in the control group. So it’s almost impossible to get a randomized control trial. What I would’ve loved to have known is if you had been in a mindful spending workshop when you were in middle school and continued to ask questions, if you would’ve been less intimidated by those acronyms, because you would’ve had, by this point, years of experience where it’s like, I learn vocabulary words and every other subject.
[00:29:11] Karen: Why not personal finance? ’cause we do find that the jargon’s really intimidating, but every subject you take in school has jargon. It’s just vocabulary without understanding.
[00:29:21] Liv: Yeah, I would say intimidating a thousand percent. Like speaking of finance and all like the different like investments accounts and like stocks and bonds and all this stuff, and even like the basic stuff.
[00:29:30] Liv: I think often finance can be scary and it’s intimidating. And in class we don’t have that class. We have history, we have English, we have math, we have biology, but we never have anything about finance. So it’s these introductions and even if we don’t remember. Everything that we learn a hundred percent, it’s just becoming more familiar with it.
[00:29:50] Liv: I remember once I sat down at a meeting with my parents. They’re investment guy and the guy was like explaining how investments work. If you would’ve asked me then to explain it, I would’ve been a lot more confident. Now I’m like, uh, I wouldn’t know what to say, but I still think that helped because it makes me feel more confident about finance and it’s like, well, at one point I understood 10% of it.
[00:30:11] Liv: So yeah.
[00:30:12] Joe: Wait a minute. So I wanna pause right here for a minute. ’cause this is fascinating to me. ’cause this is, this is a true concrete answer to my question about how much you involve kids. Your parents had you go to a meeting with their financial advisor?
[00:30:27] Liv: Yeah, it was last year, not this past December, but the December before in 2024.
[00:30:32] Liv: I was getting interested in finance and I was talking about it to my parents because I actually heard it from a podcast before I met yours about finance, literal, an
[00:30:40] Joe: inferior podcast, some other,
[00:30:42] Liv: before I met the best podcast, there’s like this media podcast.
[00:30:46] Joe: There we go.
[00:30:47] Liv: I started getting interested in investing.
[00:30:49] Liv: And then I talked to my parents about it. That’s when they were saying, oh, we invest and we do all of this stuff. So then I met their financial advisor and I was able to hear kind of more about what my parents do. And then I eventually started investing as well. But I think Karen, bouncing off of what you were saying, the interest started from me was like something I was interested in.
[00:31:10] Liv: My parents, like never dragged them to these meetings. It was always something that I knew that they were like doing. And then when I became interested, that’s when I got more involved into it.
[00:31:19] Joe: Karen, you talk about gifting, generosity, and values and how kids can grasp all these different things. I’m wondering often, you know, we start these conversations with budgeting, right?
[00:31:31] Joe: The family budget. Mom sits down and talks me through the budget, but is generosity maybe a safer and easier place to begin? Then budgeting.
[00:31:40] Karen: Well, you know, people always ask us why we focus on spending. And I mean, of course there’s way more to being good with money than why spending habits. But that’s relevant to kids, right?
[00:31:50] Karen: What do most kids do with a little bit of money that comes their way, they spend it, or they’re looking for a way to spend it, or they’re hoping to spend it someday. So when we say to them, okay, well, what if we told you there was a way to make sure that however you spend your money, you’re gonna be happy with that decision?
[00:32:06] Karen: That’s the hook, right? Because 93% of kids that we’ve had in workshops have said they’ve received a holiday or a birthday gift they did not use or appreciate. So this is happening all the time, and it’s not just for financial literacy to combat climate change. I mean, the planet just cannot sustain these underappreciated gifts.
[00:32:26] Karen: We think, oh, it’s one T-shirt from Shine, one pack of pencil crayons or whatever. But there’s 66 million school-aged children in Canada, in the United States. So every 10% reduction in underappreciated birthday and holiday gifts, it’s one NFL football field. Let me say it again. One NFL football field, less of garbage going into landfills.
[00:32:48] Joe: I remember my friend Sean Mullaney talking to me about this the first time, talking about just walk into a target, any target, and think about the fact that no matter how well we treat all this stuff, someday it’s gonna end up in a landfill. And then you see all the targets along the road, the Home Depot next to it, and the Lowe’s and the Walmart, whatever next to it, you go, oh my, that’s a ton of landfills and just, I love the focusing on what you value aspect of buying less, much more than you know, just.
[00:33:17] Joe: Being frugal. I think it’s so much more.
[00:33:19] Karen: No, but we say all the time, I am not in the feel bad about spending business. I’m in the think more about spending business. Yeah. I mean, life is no fun if you never have wants. I have wants, I have lots of pretty things, but I just really try to buy stuff that I’m going to use and appreciate because to your point, otherwise, it’s just on a short path to a landfill.
[00:33:37] Joe: Yeah.
[00:33:37] John: Well what’s great about that, Karen, is you are a money expert. One of the difficulties that money experts have is they tend to look at money si, you know, in a very scientific manner, very kind of math oriented manner, and there’s an element to that. Obviously, but we all interact with money based on how it makes us feel.
[00:33:58] John: And the only way we’re gonna figure this out, ’cause we have to figure it out on an individual basis, is to use it. Is to spend it and figure out slowly, like that made me feel this way, spending that money and wasting it on something that went to pot, you know, two weeks later. That was terrible too. And to Joe’s point, he brought up this circle back technique, which is something we talk about now.
[00:34:18] John: Ever since your podcast, Joe, we talk about the circle back technique all the time, which is a great idea, which is. You’re maintaining the empowerment your daughter was buying, whatever it was, you wanted to step in, but you didn’t. But then you gave her the chance to reflect on that purchase. And in some cases, if you use the circle back technique, the kids would be like, that was great.
[00:34:37] John: I got two weeks of absolute fun out of that thing. You might’ve thought it was junk, but it was terrific. In your case, you circled back. And in this that particular case, it was not good. But the point is the reflection and the point is. She starts to understand how money makes her feel. And you can only do that by spending and yeah, and purchasing items and just going through life experience.
[00:34:59] Karen: Okay. I wanna be junior podcaster now ’cause I’m the only person here who actually doesn’t have a podcast. So Junior podcaster, Karen Hall, you’re feeling fomo. That’s
[00:35:06] Joe: what’s happening,
[00:35:06] Karen: Karen. That’s right. I omo all of you because everybody’s got their answer. What is one purchase that you’re like, damn, this is the best money I ever spent.
[00:35:15] Karen: I have just used this thing into the ground, or it makes my life because that’s the feeling that I want you to have with most of your purchases. So what’s that thing for you that you’re like, I have never spent better money than when I bought x.
[00:35:30] Liv: I love, love, love snowboarding so much. I wanted to get a snowboard ’cause usually I rent my parents and I, we split the cost of a snowboard and I have definitely not regretted it.
[00:35:40] Liv: Just this past weekend I went and I was like, wow, this is the best thing ever. So yeah, definitely my snowboard. Joe.
[00:35:47] Joe: Oh, I was gonna let John go. I, I put John in the, for people not watching the video. I put John up there ’cause I was hoping that I could hide on that one. For me, it is the money that I spend on.
[00:35:58] Joe: So it isn’t one thing, but it is one category. Things, the money I spend on board games, which are people that know me, know how much money I spend on board games, but it’s because I value the interaction and us sitting across the table and laughing and having these shared experiences together with. No pressure.
[00:36:13] Joe: And frankly, a lot of the time we won’t even finish the game because just sitting down in a very relaxed environment allows me with a group of people I don’t know that well to all of a sudden have a wonderful conversation over, you know, a foamy beverage or a glass of wine, or just the game and we’ll get laughing and talking about stuff.
[00:36:29] Joe: So for me, that’s my favorite expense that I think some people don’t value. You
[00:36:34] Karen: get high return on interaction for that
[00:36:36] Joe: a hundred percent.
[00:36:38] Karen: John,
[00:36:39] John: I like that. I wanna go play some board games now, so come on beverage. Come on, man. Let’s
[00:36:43] Joe: go. You’re all invited.
[00:36:45] John: I would say probably my Kindle, because I use it every day and that thing, just the returns have been astronomical.
[00:36:54] John: So I love my, I love my little Kindle.
[00:36:57] Karen: Okay, so that’s the feeling that I would like most people to have after they’ve bought most things. I want you to just feel like, wow, this was. So great. It does what I need it to do, or it helped the person I wanted it to help. I feel so good every time I use it or I see them using it.
[00:37:14] Karen: That’s the feeling that you, you know, we wanna have more often than not.
[00:37:18] Joe: I feel like this is where the DIMS score really comes in because A, if you’re gonna have that feeling, you can anticipate it ahead of time. And when you do buy the thing, you have built it up enough, uh, in your head ahead of time, which, you know, speaking to.
[00:37:34] Joe: Former Wall Street Journal personal finance editor, Jonathan Clements. Jonathan said, um, one of his appearances on Stacking Benjamins that one of the most delicious things you can do is purchase a vacation way in advance of taking it. Because the fun of anticipation that you get versus if you go at the last minute, makes that purchase so much, so much more.
[00:37:56] Joe: But the DIMS score, you’re walking through, Karen, all these reasons why I want it, I want, I want it, man, if it meets all those criteria. Then you’re laughing when you get that thing like you’re, you’re just absolutely in love with it,
[00:38:07] Karen: and it’s such an easy way to avoid regret too, so many times, because spending is so frictionless today, right?
[00:38:14] Karen: It’s buy first, think later. It’s quick. It’s just not arbitrary, right? You’re like, okay, how often am I really going to use it? What? How much does sales tax and shipping ad, you know, you go through this whole thing and I’m telling you I see it every week. Half the time the kids are like, wait a minute. Hmm.
[00:38:29] Karen: Actually, you know what? Pass.
[00:38:32] Liv: Fabulous. I love this. Focus on how it makes you feel. ’cause it’s just clicked so much to me. It’s like not just about, oh, are these jeans like $70 is this X amount of dollars? But it’s like how it makes you feel. ’cause okay. I like shopping no matter how much I restrict myself from a target.
[00:38:47] Liv: Like if I go and buy something, like I’m gonna feel happy. But it’s all about this trial and error. ’cause if I go. And if I see something that I really like and I know I’ll use it and I buy it, then I’m gonna feel good about that purchase. Yes, it was expensive, but it’s something that I use so often. But then there’s been several times when I go to the store and I think, oh my goodness, this is so cute.
[00:39:07] Liv: Okay, and this and this. And I have like. Five items that I think are so cute, but in that moment I’m like, they’re cute, they’re trendy. I’m gonna look so cool at school. But then I, instead of pausing and thinking, okay, do I need to buy five cute things at one time? Mostly not. Instead of doing that, I kinda just like go to the checkout and it’s so frictionless as you said, just swipe my card.
[00:39:28] Liv: Then done. I have it. But then in the end, after a few weeks or so, I’m like, damn, like, should I really have spent that much money? Because now if I wanna buy something else, it’s like, well, I already just got so much clothes. So I love the idea of, it’s about how it makes you feel, and then sometimes spending more doesn’t give you that good feeling.
[00:39:47] Liv: It actually gives you that bad feeling.
[00:39:49] Joe: On those big purchases like college too. I mean, we spoke about this earlier. You know, Liv, you were talking and Karen, you pointed out all these acronyms and all this stuff. Like you get time to get comfortable with all of the things around these major purchases and those acronyms, by the way, never go away.
[00:40:05] Joe: It’s not just the fafsa. You know, we struggle with Roth IRA and 401k. You know, if somebody’s listening for the first time, they’re like 401k. I can’t run that far. Like no way. It’s, it’s way too far. It’s so frustrating. The acronyms and the jargon that’s just built into everyday financial talk. Let’s talk about different ages.
[00:40:24] Joe: Let’s go to John with this one. John, what does a healthy money conversation sound like with a 6-year-old?
[00:40:29] John: 6-year-old? You probably will have started an allowance. When you do that, you really wanna be very clear to say, listen, I am giving you this money. Let’s just say it’s $6 a week. I’m giving it to you to teach you to learn how to use money to see how it makes you feel to get some of the things that you want.
[00:40:47] John: And then you put it into like three jars and they start to understand the, that they have to make decisions when they get money. All you’re really doing is just telling them. This is money. I’m here to help you. You’re gonna use this money to get stuff you want. To Karen’s point, that’s what they care about.
[00:41:04] John: What can I, what can I do with this money? And we will talk about it. The other thing I think that’s good is surprisingly enough, at that age, you can even begin to negotiate with them. If they feel like they wanna make a case that they should be getting $7 a week, great. Take that as an opportunity. It doesn’t mean you give in, but you can have a conversation about why that might happen, and then you can kinda step up the allowance from age six to seven to eight.
[00:41:28] John: It’s kinda like the starter allowance, but more than anything, it’s just opening up, you’re now, you’re making money at totally non taboo subject, right? You’re empowering the conversation around money. It’s surprising how much these kids will understand and be ready because to Karen’s point, again, money gets them the things that they want.
[00:41:50] John: That’s empowering for them
[00:41:52] Joe: around the negotiation. I don’t know if this is good or bad. I’m not an expert in this area. I just thought this was funny. This one very bright young woman told me in an interview a long time ago that what her dad did was he would post all these different jobs. On a job board and his kids would bid on the jobs.
[00:42:10] Joe: They would bid against each other for the jobs. And then they realized that if they colluded, which was exactly what dad wanted, if they colluded, they’d get more money outta dad’s pocket. So they began to learn to work together versus work against each other when they were bidding for the jobs. I thought so when you were talking about negotiating John,
[00:42:30] John: I thought about that immediately.
[00:42:32] John: Well, this is the thing about being a parent and now your kids, my kids are now 22 and 20. You know, you hear ideas every day like, oh man, I wish I, I wish I could have implemented that idea. It was such a good one.
[00:42:44] Karen: And then they start to repeat it back to you. My son’s 26 and now, you know, he’ll say things to Mark and I, and I’m like, oh man.
[00:42:51] Karen: Like I, you know, I got no moves. ’cause I know exactly where that came from.
[00:42:56] Joe: Well, Karen, let’s ask you this one because, same question, but for middle schoolers, what’s a healthy money conversation sound like with a middle schooler?
[00:43:04] Karen: If you want something, what are you willing to do to get it? What are you gonna give up?
[00:43:10] Karen: What will you help out with? What’s a reasonable trade-off in your mind? It’s just practicing, making trade-offs, practicing making. Choices. We practice our times tables. We send all our kids to driver’s ed. You know Liv, your parents probably sent you to driver’s ed. Right? And why is that? Why did they send you to driver’s ed?
[00:43:29] Liv: So they don’t have to teach you how to drive?
[00:43:32] Karen: Well, that’s, that’s a symptom maybe that they wanted you to have foundational skills and awareness.
[00:43:37] Liv: Yes. Also that
[00:43:38] Karen: before you took 3000 pounds, that’s what I
[00:43:40] Liv: meant to say.
[00:43:41] Karen: Before you took 3000 pounds of stealing glass on the road. We want middle school students to have foundational skills and awareness about the components of a well thought out decision so that when the decisions are higher stakes, they’re really comfortable evaluating alternatives.
[00:43:59] Joe: Liv, you are just exiting this, uh, part, so I’ll ask you this one. What’s a healthy conversation with a high schooler look like when talking about money?
[00:44:08] Liv: I think one thing that has been super helpful, and not all high schoolers can do this at the beginning, but definitely at the end is getting a job. ’cause then it’s suddenly you have a source of income that isn’t your parents.
[00:44:20] Liv: So if you do wanna negotiate, it isn’t anymore. Dad, can I have like an extra $20? Dad, can I have like an extra $30? It’s talking to your boss and like talking about that negotiation and now suddenly you have and often then you are gonna get a larger paycheck and that understanding. It’s time to start saving up.
[00:44:36] Liv: How can I start saving this? But I also wanna spend, how can I start spending this? ’cause now you have such bigger expenses that you wanna buy and things you wanna do. So then also having like this paycheck of your own. And now it isn’t any more money coming from my mom and dad. It’s my own money. So then it’s using these lessons in growing them to a bigger playing field.
[00:44:57] Joe: Do you expect your parents to help you then, if that money came from your paycheck or is that mom and dad? Hands off. That’s all mine
[00:45:05] Liv: when I’m buying something.
[00:45:06] Joe: Yeah. About making good decisions about that money that you brought in from your job that you had in high school.
[00:45:11] Liv: I think it’s a mix. I think if I wanna buy something that they think is like ridiculous at the end of the day, I can make that money and I might learn that lesson from it.
[00:45:20] Liv: But they’ll also say like, Hey, like maybe you shouldn’t buy that. And it’s also the way they spend money. It’s like they think about their decisions before. And like with my experience, when I don’t think about my decisions, that I end up regretting it after. I think it’s definitely a mix. It’s like at the end of the day, it’s my choice, but they definitely have their input.
[00:45:38] Joe: John, I talk to older people about, you know, teaching kids about money and they talk about like, when my kids were young and your kids were young, I was teaching them the difference between like a penny and a dime and a nickel and you know, and these different, just because a nickel’s bigger than a dime doesn’t mean it’s worth more, which was a big aha.
[00:45:55] Joe: Parents aren’t dealing with that anymore. They’re dealing with the fact that you go to Starbucks and you put your phone mm-hmm. Against a a machine and all of a sudden I get this drink. How are you helping kids deal with the frictionless nature of money?
[00:46:11] John: It’s a great question, particularly because you have so many places where you can’t use cash, but I, I still think right now that this advice will probably change over the next 10 years, but I still think when you start young, you’re much better off using dollars and cents for a few reasons.
[00:46:28] John: You know, one. We know from research and we just know from personal experience, it’s harder to part with physical dollars than it is with digital dollars. It’s also when you do the allowance, that physical moving of things into different jars, like the share and the save and the spend. Smart. You’re trying to teach ’em about making choices.
[00:46:46] John: So I think it’s best to do the cash if you can, as long as you can. But there is definitely a case to be made. I talked to Chelsea Brennan, who’s the smart money mama, and she had green light cards for her kids at ages seven and four, and her logic was she did not wanna miss allowance time. She wanted to be consistent with the allowance, and that made some sense.
[00:47:07] John: She had already been talking to the kids about money. She has them moving the money onto the, on the cards into their different envelopes. So I think a combo is certainly, it’s gonna move more digital than physical as the years progress. But to the extent you can do as much of it physical, young for as long as you can, and then.
[00:47:28] John: Most likely, they’re either gonna ask for a digital card or some method of paying digitally, or you’re just gonna be like, as a parent, it’s just so much easier. I can get the money to you faster. They can pay, they can, and that’s, they need to be digitally empowered as well. So that’s good. But starting with cash early, probably the best idea.
[00:47:43] John: I see. Karen nodding. I think she probably would agree with that.
[00:47:46] Karen: Uh, yeah, I mean, I, you know, the, the frictionless spending environment is just so. Tough. Right? And the speed at which we make any decision now is so much faster than what it used to be. And it’s not because the species has evolved, it’s our environment.
[00:48:02] Karen: Right? This is why I’m such a big believer in imprinting this habit of pausing before we make decisions. Because if you don’t do it young, it’s, it’s not impossible to embrace later, but it’s a lot. It’s a lot harder. And if we just take a beat, I mean, you know, parents and school administrators are often worried that, um, when we run these workshops, oh, the kids are gonna wanna buy things that the family can’t afford.
[00:48:28] Karen: And I’m like, you know, I don’t know everything, but I promise you I’ve been doing this so long. Kids stop themselves. They are so capable of making terrific decisions when we give them a tool that helps them practice. Pausing, gathering information and reflecting before they make the decision. They just need the tiniest bit of infrastructure and they’ll blow you away every time.
[00:48:52] Karen: They’ll hardly ever let you down.
[00:48:55] Joe: That was what was amazing that I was telling my intern about middle schoolers, Karen. She’s like, they’re just not paying attention. I’m like, they are paying so much attention and the degree to which I would ask them to jump and they would jump away higher. Then as their track coach it, it was amazing how great these kids were.
[00:49:11] Karen: Here’s my mic drop on how much attention they’re paying. We had an eighth grade boy calculate the doesn’t make sense score for buying Greenland.
[00:49:20] Doug: That’s
[00:49:21] Karen: great. They’re paying. Is it too soon?
[00:49:23] Joe: Too soon.
[00:49:23] Karen: They’re paying attention extension.
[00:49:27] Joe: Oh, that’s fantastic. I wanna ask one more thing ’cause I was curious about this even as we were just signing on today.
[00:49:33] Joe: If families focused on just one money skill. Versus trying to teach everybody everything. What’s the one money skill you think you gotta choose one. Liv. Which money skill do you think families should be teaching?
[00:49:46] Liv: Okay. Not sure how concrete this is, but I would say awareness of being aware of what’s coming in, what’s coming out.
[00:49:52] Liv: I’m not a huge budgeter. I don’t have a big budgeting planner, but I started getting into the practice. Um, at the end of every month I go through my bank account and it listed out nicely. What I spent, everything I spent in the category, and I’ll sum up all the categories and I’ll see, wow, this month I spent $60 on Starbucks.
[00:50:11] Liv: And then by giving like me space, I think of questions in like, I could have spent that on a good pair of jeans, but no. So it’s reflecting and being aware of how much I spent and how much I’m making. So I’d say awareness.
[00:50:22] Joe: That’s kick ass awareness and cash flow management.
[00:50:25] Liv: Yes,
[00:50:26] Joe: Karen?
[00:50:26] Karen: Well, it’s the same answer as lives.
[00:50:28] Karen: I would just use different words. Think before you buy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:50:32] Joe: John,
[00:50:33] John: those are great answers. I think one of the things that you can start early to try to build a habit would be on the kind of portion saving side of things. So saving a a bit of everything you make. So you’re kind of instilling this idea of paying yourself first with kids, and that’s the idea when you have three jars, making sure that they’re putting some money into the save jar.
[00:50:54] John: As just a habit that they can pay attention to and be aware of, and every kid’s going to deal with it differently, but at least they have an awareness that this is probably a good thing to do. And when it comes time for bigger money decisions, when they have a job. Hopefully they’ll follow that advice or follow the path that you’ve laid for them.
[00:51:14] Karen: The saving thing is so great. ’cause compound interest is technically, it’s too complicated when they’re little, but I wish we could show the curve to all these kids, you know, and say, okay, listen, Warren Buffett’s made 90% of his money since, what is it, his 65th birthday? Yeah,
[00:51:28] Joe: yeah. Right.
[00:51:28] Karen: I mean,
[00:51:29] Liv: yeah. Using those calculators of, if I invest now, how much money will I have when I retire?
[00:51:35] Liv: That was like a game changer for me. That was like, wow. Now that I’m young, now that I can know about finance, this is when it matters.
[00:51:42] Joe: I used to go talk at high schools and we would get questions ahead of time, and 90% of the questions we get from high schoolers were variations of the phrase, how do I get into debt, up to my eyeballs?
[00:51:54] Joe: It was, how do I afford a house? How do I afford a car? How do I afford a, just how do I take out loans? How do I qualify for more loans? Almost 99% of the questions were there, and it was funny speaking with my friend Jean Natali, who teaches a lot of stuff in Pittsburgh. Jean said it was amazing when you turn that into discussions about the Roth, IRA.
[00:52:12] Joe: And about how if you just put a little money in the Roth IRA when you’re 18, you could be a millionaire. And he said it would blow kids away and all of a sudden all the questions about getting into debt just went away on their own. And all of a sudden they were very focused on how do I make money hand over fist as fast as I can.
[00:52:28] Karen: Yeah. Jean is a very nice man and I love what they’re doing at Trout Wood.
[00:52:32] Joe: Yeah, it is some super work.
[00:52:34] John: And IJI have to jump in just quickly on this because your point about what that Jean makes and you going to high schools, because the thing that you have Liv over all of us is that factor of time, right?
[00:52:45] John: Yeah. It doesn’t matter. You don’t need intelligence, you don’t need, you don’t even need that much money. Because you have so much time on your side, so when people your age start investing, it’s like Morgan Housel made a great point. He is like, if Warren Buffett had stopped investing, he started investing at 11 and he is still investing.
[00:53:03] John: That’s why we’re talking about him. That is the reason. Yes, he’s a genius, but we’re talking about him because he is been investing for what, 80 years? It’s crazy.
[00:53:11] Joe: Yeah, long, long time. John, another thing, not an endorsement. Back when I was a financial planner, one of my, one of my wonderful creative parents did was that saving jar John that you talk about, and getting kids saving.
[00:53:23] Joe: At an early age, he would give them an allowance. And then he would withhold the saving part and call it taxes because he wanted his kids to get angry about the part that was being withheld. And to ask the question, how do I minimize my taxes from an early age, again, no endorsement, but I thought that was pretty.
[00:53:45] Karen: Bill Murray used to say the easiest way to teach kids about taxes is to eat 30% of their ice cream. Right.
[00:53:52] Joe: And don’t even ask, just reach in.
[00:53:54] Karen: Yeah, no, you just like, oh, I want. Yeah. Taste that. Yeah.
[00:53:57] Joe: The claw. That is so funny. Well, uh, fantastic discussion and I’m so happy that you all are doing what you do and able to help so many of our stackers today.
[00:54:10] Joe: Let’s find out what’s going on, where you live, and again, I will be. Linking to all this wonderful stuff that you do on our show notes page at stack you Benjamins dot com. But Liv, we’ll start with you. Thanks for joining us. I’m so happy we finally got this done. What’s coming up at the Liv Lab?
[00:54:27] Liv: Of course, I have a few more interviews coming up.
[00:54:29] Liv: We release every other week, and most recently I had an amazing talk with Carmine Gallo. He’s a Harvard professor and he mastered communication and now I always rethink how I’m talking and how I’m communicating. So I got to learn how to talk.
[00:54:44] Joe: That’s so cool. Carmine is a, I wouldn’t call him a close friend, but is a friend and his talk like Ted Book Yes.
[00:54:51] Joe: Is talking about he is a new
[00:54:53] Liv: one coming
[00:54:53] Joe: out Amazon and what a, what a wonderful guy. By the way, the first book I was ever quoted in was in Carmine’s book, one of Carmine’s early books. Wow. Yeah. Which is was really cool. So Carmine Gallo, man, you’re getting Yes. Tonight. That’s incredible. That’s a get.
[00:55:09] Liv: Yeah.
[00:55:10] Liv: It was so fun.
[00:55:10] Joe: Speaking of a get, it’s always great Get And Karen Holland, how about that segue huh? On the show? What do you got going on in gifting sets?
[00:55:18] Karen: We are building two new DIM score calculators. We’ve had a lot of demand for these over the years, so we’re working really hard on them and we’re hoping to have them available for financial literacy month.
[00:55:32] Karen: Just doing workshops and educator webinars. We just did an educator webinar for the Council for Economic Education. What I love about working with them is they record them and put the recording on the econ ed link and all of your slides. So everybody like everything you need is right there and on the site, gifting sense.org.
[00:55:49] Karen: We have a four parents page and a four teachers page.
[00:55:52] Joe: Fantastic. And you know what’s funny? I learned as much on the four middle schoolers page as I learned, and by the way, I’m not ripping the four parents page. It’s awesome stuff, but man, some of these just. You know, when I get the latest board game, I’m like, I should buy that.
[00:56:08] Joe: I go the DIMS and I’m like, dammit, maybe I should wait.
[00:56:11] Karen: Does it make,
[00:56:12] Joe: maybe I, maybe I have enough. Which is an annoying answer, but it’s probably the right one.
[00:56:16] Karen: What hole does that board game fill? That’s the question you asked yourself. What hole is that board game filling? And
[00:56:21] Joe: I will always find like some spot where I can justify that purchase.
[00:56:26] Joe: Uh, I am very good at that. John Lanza. Great seeing you again, my friend. What’s coming up at Art of Allowance?
[00:56:33] John: We’re gonna be having a conversation about, uh, investing for parents and kids. We will, I’m sure we’ll touch on Roth IRAs, five 20 nines and the new Trump accounts that are coming out. So we’ll hit on all of those, and that’s gonna be coming out in the next few weeks, which is exciting, and I hope that Karen’s new.
[00:56:49] John: Gifting sense is gonna be made for kind of the over 50 set. Do you have one of those coming out? Karen?
[00:56:55] Karen: You know, I have so many parents coming to me. Well, first of all, everybody says that their spouse needs it, not them. You understand? Right? They’re, they’ve got it under control. But let me tell you, my partner, they, they need some help.
[00:57:07] Karen: People of all ages can use it if it helps, we’re happy.
[00:57:10] Joe: That’s fabulous. And, uh, the Art of Allowance and the live lab available where Finer Podcast, only the Finest podcast are listened to. Alright, guys, that’s gonna do it. Uh, I’m gonna pass this back to Doug, who I’m sure has been listening in to this entire conversation.
[00:57:26] Joe: Doug, what are the three things that should be on our to-do list at the end of today’s show?
[00:57:30] Doug: So what’s stacked up on our to-do list for today? Well first take some advice from Karen Holland asking yourself, does it make sense before purchases is a great way to start any money conversation with a child?
[00:57:45] Doug: Second, take some advice from John Lanza. Money conversations begin by being open and honest, not by feeling like you have to be perfect with money. Get the whole family involved and you’ll soon have. A money savvy family. But the big lesson, don’t ask Joe’s kids for a loan. I asked Joe’s son, Nick for 10 bucks and I swear that guy’s a loan shark.
[00:58:08] Doug: Two shrimp appetizers next Friday at the Sizzler just for a 10 spot. Nick dang kid. Drives a hard bargain. Alright, I’m up against it. I’m in you. You win. Thanks to the amazing Olivia Rotor for joining us today. You’ll find her incredible show, the Live Lab, wherever you find shows hosted by brilliant teenagers.
[00:58:31] Doug: We’ll also include links in our show notes at Stacking Benjamins dot com. Speaking of brilliant, thanks also to John Lanza for hanging out with us today. You’ll find his fabulous podcast, art of Allowance wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, thanks to Karen Holland for joining us. Find Her, does It Make Sense, tool, and more@giftingsense.org.
[00:58:54] Doug: Thanks for helping us raise lots of money last fall to help Karen’s mission too. This show is the Property of SP podcast LLC, copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy. You’ll find out about our awesome team at Stacking Benjamins dot com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots.
[00:59:18] Doug: Come say hello and oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug, and we’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.
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