Do you think, “I’ve made it once I reach financial independence?” Douglas Tsoi has been “retired” for over ten years and will tell you, “Not even close.”
For all of us, a new journey begins once we reach financial independence. What does this look like? How can we prepare? Today, Douglas sits down with Joe Saul-Sehy to dive into the five stages we all experience after reaching what many think of as the finish line.
In short, we’ll discuss:
- The fallacy of “I’m done”
- The reason why people are afraid to retire, even though they may say otherwise
- The darkness phase of “is this all there is?” and how to fight it
- The joy of finally realizing that, after the emotional journey, you can flip into a new, gratifying state.
In our headline, we’ll share a story about two executives in court because their investment scheme was “built on lies.” This company promised eight percent returns without volatility. What’s wrong with that? We’ll walk through:
- How companies make money and why volatility is always EXPECTED with an eight percent return.
- Historical returns for asset classes, including the much-maligned international and emerging markets asset classes. Will they ever outperform again?
- We’ll share several ways people try to even out returns to ATTEMPT, including what these alleged scammers said they could do (and couldn’t).
But that’s not all. Of course, we’ll also share Doug’s amazing Formula One trivia question and much, much more.
Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.StackingBenjamins.com/201
Enjoy!
Our Headline:
Prosecutor claims GPB ‘was built on lies’ (InvestmentNews)
Douglas Tsoi

Big thanks to Douglas Tsoi for joining us today. To learn more about Douglas, visit DouglasTsoi.com. Listen to his podcast at SchoolOfFinancialFreedom.com. To take a class at the School Of FinancialFreedom, visit his course calendar HERE.
Doug’s Trivia
- What iconic car brand and racing team will Lewis Hamilton be driving for in the next Formula One season?
Have a question for the show?
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Join Us Wednesday
Tune in Wednesday when we’ll answer the question ‘Can You Retire on Less Than a Million?’
Written by: Kevin Bailey
Miss our last show? Listen here: Our BIGGEST Budget “Gotchas”! (SB1534)
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Joe: I love how we come to the microphone. And Doug reminds me. It’s Monday. Uh, it’s Monday. Well, [00:00:04] Doug: thank you [00:00:05] Joe: as if I didn’t know [00:00:06] Doug: that yesterday was Sunday. Well, I mean, your life is one big party. It may just all blur together for you. I don’t know. [00:00:12] Joe: Yeah, it’s just all just, I pinch myself as I skip my way to the microphone every day. [00:00:17] Joe: What random day is it? But you know what we do on Monday? I am glad you told me because we raise a mug on a Monday. So come on. No matter where you are, what you’re doing, raise that mug. If you don’t have a mug, raise your face. That’s a mug. On behalf of the Men and Women Making podcast in mom’s basement and the men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union, here’s to our troops that kept us safe all weekend and are gonna keep us safe all week. [00:00:42] Joe: Cheers. Let’s go stack some Benjamins, shall we? Thanks everybody. [00:00:48] bit: Can you fly this plane and land it? Shirley, you can’t be serious. I am serious. And don’t call me Shirley. [00:01:00] Doug: Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. Its the Stacking Benjamins Show. [00:01:15] Doug: I am Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug, and we’re all trying to build our stack. But is that all there is? Whoever dies with the most toys wins. I mean, on today’s show, we’ll talk to a man who’s been financially independent for 10 years and is still grappling with these questions. He’s the host of the School of Financial Freedom Podcast, Douglas Tsoi. [00:01:35] Doug: In our headlines, we’ll dissect the trial of a money manager who’s accused of defrauding investors, what went wrong, and how can you protect yourself. Plus, I’ll share some fast trivia. And now two guys who raced here today on their cute little scooters to bring you the best personal finance advice around. [00:01:56] Doug: It’s Joe and o Ju ju g. [00:02:05] Joe: Hey, everybody, [00:02:10] Joe: ing, welcome to the uh, my Bike is Fast Than Your Bike Podcast. I am 13-year-old Joe Saul-Sehy, and across the car table from me, celebrating yet another Monday. Actually, what’s funny is this is the last Monday of this eight week series. Mr. og, you get a week off next week, OG. It’s the last week of this semester, of this [00:02:32] OG: semester, semester half the year’s over. [00:02:33] OG: I like the, uh, Wiley Coyote version where he just like looks at, you know, like the one where he dresses like the roadrunner and then he just goes, you know, his, because he doesn’t make any sound, but his, but his, uh, thought bubbles just says, meet Meep. [00:02:48] Joe: Imagine if you could do this whole podcast, this audio podcast in thought bubbles. [00:02:51] Joe: Wouldn’t that be great? You could do ’em in little thumb bubbles like this. YY you do. Yes. Playing with technology we all have. Let’s see if I can. No, no, nothing. Why does yours do it? Mine doesn’t. I don’t know. Uh, welcome to the, uh, messing around with Max on an audio podcast. This is magic. This is the magic you get on the Stacky Benjamin Show. [00:03:13] Joe: Speaking of magic, we actually do some great magic, uh, Doug, Tsoi contemplates, those big questions. ’cause as you know, og, getting your money straight. It’s just really the first step, getting the rest of it straight without getting paralyzed because of legacy and big thoughts like how do you get all that done? [00:03:31] Joe: How do you make, uh, optimize having more whatever more is in life? We’ll talk about that with, uh, Douglas Tsoi, who loves that topic. But before that, we got a big headline. Financial Planners stealing. Really, no, not financial planners, actually Asset managers stealing. We’ll talk about that and maybe how the investors in this might have protected themselves. [00:03:54] Joe: But before that, we have some sponsors who make sure that this show stays free for you. And the cool thing is they’re all in only the first half of the show. Second half of the show is always ad free. But for now, let’s celebrate the sponsors that help us bring this to you. Doug Tsoi waiting upstairs with Mom. [00:04:15] Joe: So let’s get to the headline. [00:04:17] bit: Hello doling. And now it’s time for your favorite part of the show. Our Stacking Benjamins headlines. [00:04:24] Joe: Our headline today comes to us from investment news.com. Finally came out it’s Get It Out man, people that Dunno Behind the scenes. Doug’s been waiting to burp for like, uh, I don’t know, an eternity, uh, since before we started the show. [00:04:39] Joe: And of course, we make sure and capture that goodness for eternity. This is, uh, written by Bruce Kelly. The headline Prosecutor, by the way, anything in investment news that starts off with the word prosecutor, I’m all about that headline. You’ve broken your hands together. It’s about to get good. Here comes some gold, somebody’s going down. [00:04:59] Joe: Prosecutor claims GPB was quote, built on lies in a standing room only courtroom in downtown Brooklyn a couple weeks ago. The fraud and conspiracy trial of two top executives of GPB capital holdings began with federal prosecutors claiming the private investment manager, which has not paid investors dividends since trouble surfaced in 2018, was built on lies. [00:05:24] Joe: So here’s what we got og. [00:05:25] Joe: We got interest rates next to zero. This firm comes along and says, Hey, you give us money and the goal here is we’re gonna get you 8% consistently. We’re going to and cut from [00:05:37] OG: the same cloth as Bernie Madoff. [00:05:39] Joe: And [00:05:40] OG: here’s how we do it. 8% every year, like clockwork. [00:05:42] Joe: Yeah. Led by CEO and founder David Genteel and broker dealer Chief Jeffrey Schneider. [00:05:47] Joe: GPB first started ringing alarm bells six years ago when it came to light. The company and its largest funds had failed to make timely required filings, including audited financial statements with the Securities Exchange Commission. So to cover up their tracks, OG they had to of course, give investors money from their own account. [00:06:03] Joe: Uh, they took money to kind of spike up the yield, so it looked like 8% because what they didn’t wanna tell people was that, and this is all allegedly obviously, that the returns weren’t what they had hoped for. Shocking. What first would’ve raised your, you know, you always use the term spidey sense. I mean, they’re putting money in, you’re getting a consistent return. 8%. I mean, so far sounds pretty good. [00:06:32] OG: The first thing that you said that I just kinda shook my head at a little bit was, and I don’t remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of, you know, we were looking to create a product that could deliver yield when the interest rate market was not so great. [00:06:45] OG: And I see this on Reddit a lot. You know, there’s a whole group of people that are focused on, I think it might be even a thread called dividends or dividend investors or something like that. And don’t get me wrong, getting cash dividends is great, but you have to look at it for what it really is. What is a cash dividend? [00:07:03] OG: A cash dividend is a profit distribution to the company, right? Companies can’t issue dividends unless they have profits, generally speaking, or retained earnings if they maybe have a bad year and they’ve saved some basically to, to pay out cash bonuses to investors, you have to have profit. There’s two ways that companies can spend profit. [00:07:23] OG: They can spend it by rewarding shareholders, giving them cash, or they can invest it in the company. They can invest in a couple of different ways by buying back their own stock. Somewhat controversial sometimes, but that’s a way to do it. But largely, they spend the money on [00:07:38] OG: reinvesting in the company to drive more profits. And in the publicly traded market, when you drive higher profits, generally speaking, your share price is rewarded with that. So if you have an investment that is like going, we pay 10% dividends. [00:07:53] OG: I’m going, hold on a second. Why are you out of ideas? Is your management team like stuck? Like you’re like, well this is all the ice cream flavors we could come up with. So this is it. We’re at peak ice cream right now. Like this is, this is all there is. You know? So we gotta take, there’s, there’s no more, no more better ways to to do it. [00:08:13] OG: But only at [00:08:13] Doug: 31, we can’t do another one. Exactly. [00:08:18] OG: So if you’ve run a company, been in a company, owned a company, worked for a company, are your profits the same every year? Gonna be all over the place? Yeah. I mean, you have good years, you have some not so good years, you have great years, you have really crappy years. So how in the heck can an investor say, I figured out how to deliver. [00:08:36] OG: A consistent return to you and have that number be, you know, higher than basically cash or money market rates. It just can’t happen. There’s just not that tool out there. If guaranteed products delivered, 8% stocks would have to deliver 16 because no rational investor would take the ups and downs of the stock market for an average of eight and all the variability that comes with that. [00:09:04] OG: One year, you’re down 50% in 2008, you can have these really crappy years to average 8%. If the world, the universe provides a guaranteed product at eight, you wouldn’t take the volatility of, you know, the market. So, so the volatility of the market would have to deliver a higher expected return if the universe provided an 8% guarantee. [00:09:26] OG: So there’s a lot here that just you go, I. This sounds too good to be true. This is all one, you know, all boils down to that statement. There’s no way that somebody can have an 8% guaranteed return every year over time. [00:09:40] Joe: They talk in this piece, and I didn’t get this far yet, about how they’re gonna come up with profits. They had a very specific focus that they thought that this 8% dividend was going to come from car dealerships, trash and waste businesses, and then would target a steady 8% annual return. [00:10:00] Joe: So when you look at any business, a car dealership, do they have up and down years trash and waste business? I don’t know if they have up and down years or not, but I would assume like any company, you’re gonna have up and down years. So how you’re going to invest in these things and come up with a steady 8%. [00:10:16] Joe: In a market, to your point where interest rates are nearly zero and so 8% looks phenomenal. You got a bunch right there. But, and frankly, when we get into this idea of returns and pieces of the market, you know, people might even say, just giving people the benefit of the doubt. Okay, the last 8, 9, 10 years, if you were in large company stocks, that’s been the place to be og. [00:10:41] Joe: In fact, it’s kind of the worst time ever right now to look at diversification. We’ve brought this up a few times this year because one asset class has seemed to rule them all for so long that younger investors get lulled into this trap. I’ve had three conversations. Yeah. [00:10:57] OG: What’s a guy gotta do to get the small cap market to do okay for a period of time? [00:11:01] OG: Right? [00:11:02] Joe: I, I mean, I’ve had this conversation with three younger investors this year. They’re like, I don’t get in investing in international. I don’t understand it. There’s no reason to do it. Why the hell would I do it? ’cause that asset class never performed. So what I did. Was just went back to a period that you and I have talked about that era. [00:11:20] Joe: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008. Listen to this, international stocks in 2005, 14% large company US stocks, 4.9%, okay? The following year, large company stocks did 15.8 in 2006, but International did 26.9 the following year, large cap had a crappy year in 2007, 5.5. Of course, we’re starting to get some rumblings about real estate at that point, right? [00:11:51] Joe: Real estate down 15%. A harbinger of things to come international, 11.6 and this trend, this idea that international sucks all the time. I’m looking at 2005 to 2018. I’ve got several years in here now, again, to these young people’s point, none lately. But thinking that right now is what’s going on in the market and that, okay, waste businesses and car dealerships are gonna be the place where I get a steady 8%. [00:12:22] Doug: Joe, I got a question about international investing. Are those, when you look at an article like that and those returns, are they largely based on more established companies in brick countries? Or is it super diverse like startups in, you know, Romania? [00:12:42] Joe: No, I’m glad that you said that because there’s a separate line for emerging markets. [00:12:46] Joe: Oh, gee. How has emerging markets been doing? [00:12:49] OG: Uh, let’s see here. Didn’t you say earlier you wanted to have it be a thought bubble, the show of a thought bubble? Yes. Yeah. So ask the question again. Okay. Lemme see if I can, if I can have my thought bubble. [00:12:59] Joe: How about emerging markets over the past 10, 15 years? [00:13:02] Joe: OG [00:13:09] Joe: 20 17, 37 0.8%, but, uh, couple that with 2015 at negative 14.6 2018, negative 14.3, negative two in 2013, negative one, 2014. I mean, we’ve had some horrible years, but, [00:13:23] OG: but there have been some pretty good years. An occasional spike, and I just happen to remember this from the election cycle before last, so 2016, the time period, if you look at it year to year is really interesting. [00:13:37] OG: But there’s periods of time within there where that underperformance is wiped out in a short period of time. Small companies, for an example. I’ve talked about this before. In the five years ending October 31st, 2016, small companies underperformed large companies on average and cumulatively over that five-year period, from November 1st through Christmas, all of that underperformance was washed away. [00:14:07] OG: And now for the five years ending Christmas of 2016, small companies outperformed large companies in five years. [00:14:14] Doug: Was that because there were a couple, were there just a couple of companies that just killed it and they were overweighted in that index, or what happened? No. [00:14:22] OG: To swing it, because the Russell 2000 has 1,830 positions, what happened was, was there was a presidential election that went a direction that people didn’t think was gonna happen, and it. [00:14:35] OG: Change the viewpoint of, of industry based on the results of the election in that short period of time. You know, we obviously over long periods of time, you know, kind of all is in the wash. But if you would’ve said, you know, if you, if you would’ve met with your advisor, if you would’ve done your rebalancing on Halloween and gone, you know what I, I’ve, I’ve done this for five years, five freaking years. [00:14:56] OG: I’ve got my face kicked in. I put 20% in small cap, be nice and diversified. It’s so dumb, I’m just gonna go large US Tech. It’s six weeks later. That allocation of 20% of your small companies would’ve beaten the five year return of your 80% of large companies in just six weeks or eight weeks. The thing is about diversification, the best part about it is that you get all the returns of all the stocks. [00:15:22] OG: You just get them in an order that you can’t predict. [00:15:24] Joe: And the reason why people got duped was, I think the theme here, og, if you’re looking for stability. You’re asking in, in, in the equity markets, if you’re asking for stability, you’re gonna get duped. [00:15:37] OG: Well, and the fact that you said, I’m investing in, in, in, in car dealerships and waste management companies, I’m like, all right, this is even dumber of an idea. [00:15:46] Doug: It invokes a visual that OG just brought up, which is you’re gonna get your face kicked in. [00:15:53] Joe: Yeah. I wanna go back, Doug to your original question though about international versus emerging markets, which I think is an important distinction. Going back to 2005. We got through that. The last 10 years has not been that kind to emerging markets, although there’s pieces of it. [00:16:08] Joe: Oh gee. To your point where man, the spike is huge and you just don’t know when it’s gonna happen. 2005, I mentioned large caps, did large company US stock, 4.9% International. 14 emerging markets, these smaller company stocks, Doug 34.5%. Top asset class in 2005, 2006. Not much worse, 32.6. If you were in international, you only did 26.9. [00:16:34] Joe: If you were in large companies, you’d have 15 the following year. Emerging markets, 39.8. International only 11 and large companies 5.5. So yeah, big difference between just like in the US, right? Big difference between small companies in the US and large companies in the us. Same thing for international, large, established companies internationally have good years. [00:16:56] Joe: And then emerging markets, a whole separate, even nastier and better roller coaster. By the way, emerging markets followed up that beautiful 2007 to 39.8 to return negative 53.2 in 2008. So while the whole world was getting its face kicked in, emerging markets got kicked in the most. But this is the nature OG of volatility, right? [00:17:17] Joe: What goes up the fastest, the rollercoaster with the biggest hill is also gonna drop the furthest. [00:17:24] OG: I mean, look at the Covid 17 trading days where the market was down 30%, 17 days. It’s like, okay, that is pretty crazy. You know, that rubber band got pulled back pretty quick, and it makes sense that the rebound was just as quick. [00:17:39] OG: Now, that doesn’t mean that, you know, you didn’t feel concerned about it. It doesn’t mean that on March 23rd you weren’t like, well, maybe we go down another 20% from here. Who knows, right? Because there’s a lot of, a lot of unknowns the third week of March around the economy and the market and covid and impact and all that sort of stuff. [00:17:59] OG: But in retrospect, you can see, the world’s smartest people were trying to solve this problem. And more specifically around the companies that you own. You own companies that are run by the smartest people in the world. That’s their job is to run Coca-Cola and Apple and Nvidia, and you know, all these companies that you heard of, that you do business with every day, they’re governed by a group of people who also make sure that they’re doing their job. [00:18:25] OG: So there’s a lot of checks and balances, and that doesn’t mean that they’re always gonna do great all the time, but you know that they’re trying, that’s their sole focus. The folks at Disney are trying to make sure people go to the parks and they’re trying to make really good movies. That’s all they’re focused on all the time, every day. [00:18:40] OG: And their incentives, their pay. Largely is determined by the results of the overall organization. So they’re incentivized to do it. And so when the economy takes a crap and, and you go, oh, well the market, no, no, no, no. The folks at Disney didn’t just go like, well, I guess we just shut it down. I guess everybody right? [00:18:57] OG: We just wrap it up. We’re done. We had a good run. We’re done swinging a miss. Yeah, they got a Zoom call and they went, what do we do guys? Let’s talk about it. Let’s, let’s brainstorm ideas. And they took their best ideas and said, how do we get people to feel comfortable going to Disney again? Because we need to freaking make money. And the same thing is true about every company in every environment that happens. You know, people talk about the upcoming election and they’ll say things like, well, if such a person wins, then this is gonna happen. [00:19:22] OG: This person wins. Look. There’s definitely policy decisions and policy directions depending on which side wins the election and which side is, you know, in Congress and that sort of thing. There’s no doubt about that, but make no mistake about it. The people who are impacted, the organizations and companies and industries that might be impacted positively or negatively by either any of those, you know, directions, they’ve got contingency plans on the wall. [00:19:46] OG: Just like you should have a contingency plan on your shelf of like, what happens if I get hit by a bus, or what happens if I lose my job or what hap you know, all these different things. They’ve already got that stuff. If this person gets elected, we know that the direction of the oil and gas business is this way. [00:20:00] OG: Thus we are gonna do these things in order to continue to make money. The interests are so perfectly aligned that I think if you recognize that you’re investing in companies that are run by people who have really strong incentives to be profitable over long periods of time, I think that takes the edge off of it quite a bit and say, I’m investing in these companies. [00:20:18] OG: I’m an investor in these organizations that are trying to do really, really the best that they can, no matter the market circumstances, up, down, or sideways. Let’s throw some gasoline on this fire. Now, I don’t have any energy around this, so as you can tell, [00:20:31] Joe: not at all, oh no, we’re gonna really throw some gasoline because you know, og, that there are people out there walking the dog, whatever, going, you know what? [00:20:39] Joe: I still think there’s a way to do this. [00:20:40] We can make a portfolio that delivers 8% a year. Every year, like clockwork. [00:20:45] Joe: I know what it is. I’m going to add bonds to the portfolio. So here’s what we’ll do. We’ll do a 60 40 mix. We’ll do 60%. Safer stocks and then we’ll do 40% bonds. And that’ll certainly give us this 8% stability, right? That these people that are being prosecuted for not doing what they said that they’ll do, there’s gotta be a way to do this. [00:21:08] Joe: Well, I went and looked at that too. Your favorite source, JP Morgan, who does a lot of this research, went and looked at how do the returns look year over year if you do that 60 40 portfolio. ’cause that’ll even it out, right? Start at 2003. I’m just gonna list returns. 2003, 19%, 2004, 8%, 2005, 4%, 2006, 11%, 2007, 6%, 2008, negative 20%, 2009 18, and then we go 12 4 11, 19, 11, 1, 8, 15, negative three, and so on. [00:21:46] Doug: This is crazy. Those are the returns for a sample portfolio that was 60 40. [00:21:52] Joe: 60 40, we put 40% of it in bonds to try to even it out. There’s no, all with the oil in the wall. [00:21:59] bit: I know. [00:22:00] OG: Wow. [00:22:00] Joe: We still didn’t do it. og we still didn’t create this consistent 8%. [00:22:05] OG: No. And all, all that happens is you’re taking the opportunity for, uh, inflation adjusted returns and cutting it down by 70%. [00:22:15] OG: , you can’t have guaranteed outcomes and high expected returns. Those things can’t live in the same universe ever. So anytime, , you look at your savings account and it’s paying 4.5%, that’s a guaranteed return, right? You don’t have to do anything, you know, for certain that the US government is gonna make sure that Ally Bank is gonna freaking have your account and it’s gonna pay you the money that they owe you, guaranteed every time. [00:22:44] OG: And so if all of a sudden you say, well, I’m gonna add. Some return to that, but if you don’t think that there’s added risk or said another way, added ups and downs, the bumpiness, which is what people for some reason want to try to avoid, the bumpiness is what gets you the return. That’s the only way you get those returns. [00:23:06] OG: I mean, it’s such a fundamental concept. You can’t have high expected returns without the ups and downs. Because that’s what the difference is between cash returns of four point a half percent today and an equity returns of 10. It’s the ups and downs. [00:23:22] Joe: I think this comes down to if you’re surrounding yourself with people that are telling you what you want to hear, I will give you 8% non-volatile you. You might end up being played, but if you surround yourself with people that help you. Analyze strategies, look at the predicted volatility and the volatility you’ll have to endure. [00:23:45] Joe: So you know, ahead of time where this rollercoaster is headed. And then you agree that, yeah, this is, this is the path. I think it’s a much better way to go. You know, we don’t like change, but. That’s all that there is in financial markets is change all the time. I will make sure that Kevin Bailey, who writes our wonderful 2 0 1 newsletter dives into this more tomorrow. [00:24:05] Joe: So if you’re interested, not only in this piece, which we’ll have in the show notes, but also in this idea of how do we put together a better portfolio, we will have more of that in tomorrow’s newsletter, Stacking Benjamins dot com slash 2 0 1 to get that. It’s always free and comes out every Tuesday and Thursday that we make the podcast. [00:24:26] Joe: Coming up next, we’ve had captains of industry, people that have advised presidents. On this show. We have a people talking about how to make more money and build, build, build. Douglas Tsoi took a different path. During his career, he lived on less than 20,000. At age 42. He quote, retired. [00:24:46] Joe: Although if you know anything about our mentor today, he didn’t. At all retire. He just really did a big pivot. We’re gonna talk about that. What he’s explored in his last 10 years is all the things not about money that really make a successful quote. Retirement. What’s that all about? How do you have these bigger conversations without freaking yourself out? [00:25:07] Joe: Well, he’s our mentor today, Douglas Tsoi, but our mentor every Monday, Wednesday, Friday on the trivia is, uh, Doug and I Doug. I’ve seen you busy, busy working in the wood shop next door. What’s going on? [00:25:20] Doug: The wood shop more like the car shop. Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug and it’s racing season. [00:25:27] Doug: I love NASCAR and Formula One as much as the next guy, but there’s some real down home racing happening right here in our own backyard. Texarkana iss, annual Pinewood Derby race is coming up this weekend. Oh, that’s why I’m out there late at night. I don’t wanna jinx it, but I have a pretty strong feeling I’m gonna win. [00:25:47] Doug: This one would won last year too. If someone. And ratted me out for being an adult, people trying to sabotage me. It’s a sad world. What’s, what’s this come to? I know exactly who told too. It was Brett. Brett. Brett. Brett. Brett lives in a rival cul-de-sac across town. I sat and watched and saw him whisper something to his mom, and next thing I know, being escorted outta the middle school gym. [00:26:13] Doug: But that was last year. I worked really hard on my car this year. So I’m entering the race under a pseudonym instead of Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. I’m submitting my car under Joe’s. Mom’s neighbor’s, Doug’s young nephew. Oh, perfect. Can’t see through that. Then after my fake nephew inevitably wins, I’ll tell him that he’s sick and I have to accept the word on his behalf. [00:26:36] Doug: Foolproof, really flawless. So let’s talk racing with today’s trivia question while I’m about to win a big fat trophy with a pH. In the world’s most iconic racing series, formula One drivers also score millions of Benjamins, probably the next stop in my career. [00:26:54] Doug: So let’s talk about the most famous driver in that series and one of the most iconic teams in the event. What iconic car brand and racing team will the legendary Louis Hamilton be driving for in next year’s Formula One? I’ll be back after I finish sand in my wood. [00:27:22] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m proud Uncle and Brett’s worst nightmare. Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. After I got my newly created nephew, Tyrone’s TikTok up and running, I went ahead and. Set up some accounts on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. You know, just in case the judges start poking all over the internet. [00:27:41] Doug: He’s even on LinkedIn. I made him out to be a child genius who already works at a entry level engineer at Ford. I figure that’ll help explain why his car is so much better than all the other kids . Today’s trivia question is, what iconic car brand and racing team will Louis Hamilton be driving for in the next formula one season? [00:28:00] Doug: The answer in a deal worth reportedly over $100 million. The world’s winningest race car driver is going to move from Mercedes where he spent his entire career to an even more iconic brand known for screaming, I’m Rich and I’m having a midlife crisis. It’s none other than Ferrari that has paired with the winningest F1 driver for next year’s season. [00:28:21] Doug: I. And now here to help you contemplate life beyond the race to financial independence. It’s today’s mentor, Douglas Tsoi. [00:28:30] Joe: Oh, and I’m happy to finally get to meet this guy who we’ve heard on our sister show, earn and Invest a couple times. Douglas So’s here. How are you man? [00:28:38] Douglas: Good to meet you, Joe. [00:28:38] Joe: I’m doing [00:28:39] Douglas: well this morning. [00:28:40] Joe: Well, great to meet you. I’m super, super happy you could join us. Mom was even like more excited than normal to meet somebody, so you must have impressed the hell outta her. Uh, hey, let’s start off with, you know, Doug’s trivia was about Formula One racing and about the Pinewood Derby. Were you a Cub Scouts kid? [00:28:55] Joe: Did you do the Pinewood Derby? [00:28:57] Douglas: I did both. Yeah. I was a Bobcat, I believe, and I did the Pinewood Derby. I don’t, I’m not sure. My vehicle moved further than 10 feet though. [00:29:07] Joe: I remember. So I, I was in Detroit, which of course, motor City, right. And a lot of the dads that I was competing against, they were engineers. [00:29:16] Joe: And so I sat my son Nick down Douglas, and I said, okay, let’s set reasonable expectations, right? And I said, I know a lot of what we’re gonna talk about today is really what to expect and beyond the money of financial independence. But I said, okay, what do most of your friends’ dads do? He goes, what are you talking about? [00:29:34] Joe: I said, where do they work? What do they do? He goes, well, they work at General Motors Ford. I said, exactly, where does your dad work? Well, you’re a financial planner. Exactly. And we’re building a car. So for us, what should our win be? And our win should be. We agreed that if it made it all the way down the track to the bottom, that we’d high five each other. [00:29:54] Joe: Like that was it. And it was funny because the first race, the first race, this one car dude just killed us. Just absolutely killed us. And our car, I think, finished like fourth out of five. And you would’ve thought, Douglas, that we’d won the Super Bowl. ’cause Nick and I are just jumping, jumping up and [00:30:11] bit: down. [00:30:12] Joe: The financial planner, this kid, their thing made it. But you know, for a lot of people the Super Bowl is this idea of financial independence. We talk a lot about making more money. I’m always intrigued when I meet, when I meet people in our community that made it without that rubric of, Hey, I gotta make more money to get financial independence earlier. [00:30:33] Joe: My understanding is you made. At most $36,000 before you became financially independent, [00:30:40] Douglas: the more accurately, I averaged $36,000 a year. Okay. All right. For 20 years before I hit financial independence. So I, I had a number of careers. I worked as a corporate lawyer and I made $150,000 a year. I worked as a Quaker school teacher. [00:30:55] Douglas: I made $12,000 a year. Um, worked in a nonprofit, made $60,000 a year. I was underemployed or unemployed for four of those years. [00:31:03] Joe: Wow. I mean, how did you do it then? Because everybody’s wondering if you’re, if you’ve got this up, down income, right? That’s all over the place, how do you become financially independent in 20 years? [00:31:13] Joe: What was your secret sauce? [00:31:15] Douglas: Yeah. The short story of it is, uh, I graduated from college in 1994 and the first job I got, um, outta college was at the Justice Department in Washington, DC. [00:31:24] bit: Good, cool. And I [00:31:25] Douglas: made. $25,000 a year, and I spent 15 of it. And I felt rich because in college I was really poor. You know, I was an immigrant kid, uh, didn’t have a lot of money, so I lived on $5,000 a year in college. [00:31:38] Douglas: And so that first year outta college spending $15,000 a year was literally three times more than the year before. So I felt totally rich. And so I just decided right then and there that this was enough. And enough is a big word for, for the work I do now. I, I work as a spiritual director, so I decided financially, spiritually, environmentally, this was enough. [00:32:01] Douglas: And so for the next 20 years, I lived on about 20 to $25,000 a year and saved everything else. [00:32:07] Joe: Did you use a budget or did it just feel like enough? [00:32:10] Douglas: Um, I would put it this way. I, I knew the budget in my head. Later on, I would use things like Mint as sort of like fact checking myself. Like [00:32:21] Joe: a Tracker thing? [00:32:23] Joe: Yeah. [00:32:24] Douglas: I had an internal sense of how much I wanted to spend, but basically for all those years I wanted to spend less than thousands of dollars a month on my credit card. [00:32:31] Joe: A lot of our stackers feel FOMO though. When you live that type of life, there’s gotta be people doing more, doing things. Did you ever feel FOMO during that time? [00:32:41] Douglas: Yes, and my story is that I came from a family of immigrants who lost everything to the communists in China. And so when you lose everything, and my, you know, my parents’ generation, they came with nothing. Whenever I got money, I wanted to save it and invest it because money was security from me. And so the most basic feeling I had was whenever I spent money, I was losing security. [00:33:06] Douglas: It’s only a sense financial independence have I learned to slowly unravel that, [00:33:12] Joe: but still I, you know, I wonder if more of our. Stacker family felt that way. Like every time you spend, you’re, you’re making this decision. So for you, every expense you made was truly this decision. Is this worth giving away security? [00:33:25] Douglas: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it goes to, you know what, a lot of people talk about money scripts and those intergenerational beliefs that you get as in childhood about what money is. It’s either security or status or it’s fun. You know, our feelings about money matter far more than the actual money. And the feeling I had was I was giving up security whenever I spent. [00:33:44] Joe: Let’s dive into this idea, into the idea of feelings, because I think too many people treat financial independence like it’s just a math problem, Douglass, and I know that from the back and forth, you and I had even setting up this interview that you feel similarly. I wanna read everybody something that you wrote me. [00:34:01] Joe: Financial independence is an opportunity to look at our deeper selves. Carl Young said that unless we bring the unconscious to consciousness, it will rule our lives and we’ll call it fate. Tell me what you meant when you wrote that to me. [00:34:15] Douglas: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of our behaviors are underneath the surface. [00:34:19] Douglas: So I have a website called School of Financial Freedom. I teach personal finance, and one of the things you learn is, I mean I, I think there are two issues in America. Number one, not a lot of people know about personal finance, and it’s not their fault, right? Like we were not taught this in school, and there’s just a huge hole in our education. [00:34:38] Douglas: And so most of us are operating without any education on this. But then there’s a second thing, which is number two, even when we know what we have to do, are we willing to do it? And that becomes super hard too, right? Because all of a sudden we hit all those beliefs that we have that we’re not really conscious of what money is. [00:34:58] Douglas: Until we bring those unconscious beliefs to light, we can’t really do anything about our money. [00:35:04] Joe: What are some of those beliefs that you see time and again with students of yours that we need to bring to light, that we need to shine a flashlight on? [00:35:12] Douglas: I’ll give an example. You know, uh, feelings drive behavior, right? [00:35:16] Douglas: And so much for feelings are about like, who we think we are or who we need to be to be accepted. I have a friend who, she just appeared on my podcast actually. She’s having her first kid and she’s trying to calculate how much money she’s gonna need for, um, to raise this kid and maybe, uh, you know, future kids, how much will daycare cost, or if they have to go to private school or, you know, save for college and all these things. [00:35:41] Douglas: And then she’s a doctor serving low income families. And she realized, you know, if you talk to Somali families or like Mexican families, any immigrant families, they’re not paying attention to this at all. Right? Like every kid is a blessing and they’re like having five to seven kids, right? They’re, the finances don’t matter because the point of life is to have the kids. [00:36:00] bit: Yeah. [00:36:01] Douglas: And so she realizes like, what is enough to raise a kid? It’s not even a question for these low income immigrants. I don’t know about you, but when I was a kid, everyone shared. A room with their siblings and now it’s like a human rights violation if, if your kid has to share a room, [00:36:18] Joe: right? I don’t want, I don’t want my brother or my sister with me. [00:36:20] Joe: Are you kidding me? I can’t do that. [00:36:23] Douglas: Right. So, uh, the rising expectations of America like is a blessing and you know, we cannot see how fortunate we are. [00:36:32] Joe: It’s funny ’cause what you’re doing then is you’re going through and you’re questioning all the assumptions. I think we make Douglas in our everyday existence. [00:36:39] Douglas: Yeah. And I think, you know, part of it is life is moving so fast and we don’t have strong sense of our own history that it becomes easy to say, well, you know, our neighbors or the people we see on the internet have this. And so like, I should have this too. No one would say that out loud, but it’s unbidden. [00:36:57] Douglas: Right. And that’s the unconsciousness of it. Like, you know, we believe the marketing we see all around us. [00:37:02] Joe: Yeah. I feel like social media just makes it even worse. [00:37:05] Douglas: Absolutely. Social media is functionally mostly marketing, marketing of some sort. It’s in, uh, you know, the most important thing about marketing. [00:37:13] Douglas: I, I read once that in order for someone to convince you to buy something, they have to let you know that you’re not enough. There’s a tremendous amount of energy and human talent that goes around telling people that they’re, you’re not enough. [00:37:30] Joe: It is funny. I feel like that’s part of the financial independence journey, right? [00:37:33] Joe: Like, I’m not enough because I’m not financially independent yet. Like there’s, there’s this drive. I was listening to somebody, Zeke Ziegler actually, you know, you know the old motivational fingers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, people that, don’t dunno. Zeke Ziegler, go look this guy up. He died several years ago, but he always has these phrases, but one that is really good, Douglas was, it isn’t the attainment of the goal that truly brings you joy. [00:38:01] Joe: What brings you joy is the pursuit of the goal. Just setting up the goal and having the joy that every day I get to wake up and pursue it. I think even maybe that int reinterprets your vision because instead of it being, I’m not enough, so I gotta have this thing. Now you’re in a place of gratitude. Now I get to wake up every day and I just get to pursue it. [00:38:24] Joe: Like how badass is that? It kind of changes your mindset. [00:38:28] Douglas: Yeah. I think financial freedom, it’s not only the math of it, but the path towards your financial independence is personal growth and empowerment itself. Right? Well, you feel so much more empowered about yourself when you’re in control of your money and in control of your life. [00:38:46] Joe: I think you’re also less likely to judge yourself if you f*** it up [00:38:50] Douglas: and like, you know, as I’m sure you know, like when you it up, you actually, you have more cushion. Like I, I f***ed up many times. I had to foreclose in a house after 2009. I’ve made all sorts of financial mistakes, but when you have a cushion, it means less. [00:39:07] Joe: Yeah. Well, let’s walk through this because my next obvious question should be, well, where do I start? If I’m on this path to shine the light into the consciousness around not just financial independence, but what it means to me. You have five stages that you walk through with your students. Can we walk through those and what they, what they are? [00:39:29] Douglas: Yeah. Well, I talk about these five stages. Well, the way I put it is, right, like if you accomplish financial independence. It’s an amazing accomplishment, but as you’re just saying, right, like the accomplishment doesn’t make you happy. And I think that’s the secret of it, right? Like the financial independence movement has its own marketing that makes you believe, well, if you don’t have this, you’re not enough. [00:39:51] Douglas: But once you get it, you’ll totally be enough. You’ll be [00:39:53] Joe: way happy. Right? [00:39:55] Douglas: You know, I come from a spiritual background, it’s just, it’s another sensation, right? The Buddhists say like, you’re always reaching for something, and then once you become acclimated into it, it won’t make you happy anymore. And I think financial independence is the same. [00:40:07] Douglas: So I talk about these five stages of post-financial independence. The first stage is this, uh, sort of like the five stages of grief. I talk about it as denial. There’s so many people, like they’ll hit the number. The classic number for a financial independence movement is 25 x. With X being the amount of money that you spend per year. [00:40:26] Joe: So the amount of money I spend right now, I multiply it by 25. I got that much money in the bank or at Fidelity or wherever the hell it is. Bam, that’s your number, [00:40:36] Douglas: right? And that means you’re, quote, financially independent. And you know, I know a number of people who have hit that number, but they don’t wanna leave their jobs. [00:40:45] Douglas: They don’t actually wanna stop working. They’re typical excuses. But I like my job. And the super interesting thing is, you know, we think about our jobs as things that we do for money, but our jobs give us so many other things. It gives us a sense of purpose, it gives us a structure to our day, gives us a sense of identity, belonging, and status. [00:41:05] Douglas: And people don’t fundamentally without knowing, they don’t really want to give that up. And so they continue working. Even though like the majority of people I know are incredibly stressed, like not like, oh, I’m stressed every once in a while, but chronically stressed. And that’s because they’ve tied all these other things, purpose, identity, structure to the fact that they have to work. [00:41:26] Douglas: You have to do some inner work to say, okay, I can get these things outside of this really stressful job. So then I get to stage two. Stage two is when I call, oh wait, hold on. Oh yeah, yeah. Hold on. ’cause I [00:41:37] Joe: got a lot of questions about stage one. I got, I got, I got a ton of questions. Um, you know, I’m thinking about a, some of the greatest creators in history and how they lived their whole life as this quote, you know, identity, their identity was their work. [00:41:53] Joe: It wasn’t their job as much as it was who they are. I’m thinking about my spouse who’s worked in the medical field. She had this doctor she worked with who, I think he died when he was 98. And even at age 98, before he died, maybe two months before he died, he was still coming in to the office two days a week for half days. [00:42:10] Joe: And he was sharp. Douglas, I mean, he was super sharp. He wasn’t a guy who happened to be a pediatrician. His whole existence was, I am pediatrician. I. [00:42:25] bit: Is [00:42:25] Joe: that a mistake or, or did the world get a better him because it was who he was. Like, is there a problem with wrapping your identity around this thing that you do? [00:42:38] Douglas: You know, I can’t speak for that person. And you know, it’s complex, right? There are people who feel firmly in their wheelhouse doing what they do, and it gives ’em all these things that we’re talking about purpose and identity and status. Yeah. You know, being a pediatrician, you’re serving the world. You have this incredible status. [00:42:56] Douglas: It’s money like, and I’m not someone who would say that you shouldn’t do it. And at the same time, how do I put this? I know a lot of people in a lot of prestigious jobs are doing it because they don’t feel like there are enough, [00:43:10] Joe: right? [00:43:10] Douglas: I mean, Jordan, our mutual friend, talks about this really openly, right? [00:43:14] Douglas: Like the reason he became a doctor is because he felt like he had to be because his father died. He had to unwind all this deeper stuff to realize the, the deeper reasons why he became a doctor and he, he was continuing to be a doctor. [00:43:27] Joe: It’s funny because in my, by the way, when, uh, Douglas says Jordan, that’s Doc G over earn and invest. [00:43:33] Joe: I think about it both ways. Like I’ve known people Douglas, on either side of this, and I’m trying to, to think of what the mistake is and maybe, maybe I, I found it, which is what you said earlier about that idea of all that stress and frankly, this concept of enough that if Dr. Dorsey was his name, if Dr. [00:43:52] Joe: Dorsey felt like he was enough and he just enjoyed showing up every day and it didn’t cause stress, well then he is probably on the right path. Mm-Hmm. [00:44:00] bit: But if [00:44:00] Joe: he’s doing it every day and it’s stressful as all get out, and he just doesn’t want to examine what other possibilities might be, that might at least, at the very least, alleviate some of that stress. [00:44:11] Joe: I mean, it seems to me that stress, because you brought it up right away, might be a big indicator of whether you’re on the right path or not. [00:44:18] Douglas: Yeah, but so my first job was a lawyer. Really stressful job and I was not good at it. Um, and I got fired. And I wanna make two points on this. Number one, like I’ve learned that failure is like, and I’m sure you probably have two, failure is one of the most beautiful things in the world, right? [00:44:36] Douglas: It’s realigning because then you get to find out what are you really about. When success is gone, it’s super easy to keep on going when you’re successful. In fact, I have a lot of law school friends 25 years later, like I was not happy as a lawyer. And I suspect when I look at them, they’re not happy as lawyers either, but because they’re successful, they’re still lawyers. [00:44:56] Joe: That’s funny. The damn nation is that they’re good at it. [00:44:59] Douglas: Yes. And the second thing is like when you are on the track, even if you like it, you’re good at it. You don’t have space to actually look up. And I think that’s the other amazing thing about getting fired or failing is you get to look up and you get to reevaluate. [00:45:18] Douglas: And most people don’t have that opportunity when they have to work for a living. [00:45:23] Joe: I think about when I got fired, and by the way, at the time, it what didn’t seem beautiful. No, [00:45:28] Douglas: no, it’s the worst. [00:45:31] Joe: But today, looking in the rear view mirror, that made me stronger, better, more accepting in myself, like so many, so, so many great things came from that, that I would not have done it differently. [00:45:44] Joe: Like I, I’m like, that was, uh, I learned so many lessons in such a short time from that experience. What’s the second step? [00:45:51] Douglas: Uh, just really quickly. Yeah. I call it dark grace, right? Like, oh yeah. The things that are, that would be the best for us and the healthiest for us are the things sometimes we avoid the most. [00:46:02] Douglas: And, uh, dark gray sometimes has to happen to us. [00:46:05] Joe: I was doing that with exercise this morning. Best thing for me, didn’t wanna do it. [00:46:13] Douglas: Um, so, uh, phase number two of this five stage process that I, I think of is what I call the party phase. Like, you realize you’re financially independent and then you start like imagining all the fun things you’ll do. I have some students that have already hit financial independence and they move to Spain, um, and they live this great life in Spain where they go out and go to the beach in the mornings and they golf in the afternoon, and they’ve picked up new hobbies, like they started writing novels and. [00:46:40] Douglas: There’s a performative aspect to it, right? Like you’re sharing with everyone on Facebook, all the cool things you’re doing. You’re going on vacations with like your loved ones and your friends, and you want everyone to know you’re partying. [00:46:50] bit: Yeah. [00:46:51] Douglas: Which is great, you know, I think, I mean, everyone I know that’s done financial independence has gone through that phase, but at some point you can only party for so long. [00:47:00] Joe: Well, I’m just thinking, I’m seeing phase three coming. I think phase two may allude to phase three. I don’t know what phase three is everybody, but I’m thinking. Because just from my years of financial planning, I never didn’t see your second phase. Douglas. I always saw the, the, Hey, I get to, you know, name the thing. [00:47:19] Joe: I get to travel, I get to play golf every day. I get to read, I get to garden, I get to do whatever. And you’re like, pinch me. This is phenomenal. But on average, and it’s funny because there’s been research about phase two, a guy named Ken Dyal and a woman named Gail Sheehy have done some of these longevity studies and retirement studies and Ken Dyal said that that phase two of yours last approximately 18 months on average. [00:47:45] Douglas: Oh, that’s so funny because that’s like what they talk about of like when you fall in love with someone. Right. That infatuation phase lasts about 18 months. [00:47:53] Joe: About 18 months. Isn’t that funny? [00:47:55] Douglas: Yeah. And then the endorphins have to go down. Right. That’s exactly what I [00:47:59] Joe: was thinking, Douglas. There’s gotta be a chemical thing that’s an 18 month chemical deal. [00:48:02] Joe: Yeah. [00:48:02] Douglas: Yeah. The endorphins have to go down and then you return back to a normal state. And that’s why, like nothing makes you permanently happy. [00:48:11] Joe: Well, so what’s phase three then? [00:48:13] Douglas: Uh, I’m curious what you thought phase three was, but, uh, my phase three is what I call the identity phase or the purpose phase. [00:48:20] Douglas: I’m going to like do the thing that I really supposed to do. [00:48:23] Joe: Yeah. [00:48:24] Douglas: For a lot of people in financial independence, they start a podcast or they start writing or they start teaching, right. All this stuff. And it’s super empowering, right? Because then you, you can claim all the benefits of like all the hard work you did for the, you know, the decades before and you get to see yourself as this thing and help other people. [00:48:42] Douglas: And there’s, and you know, it’s really wonderful to like. Be in service to others. [00:48:47] Joe: You took the renewal side of it. I actually took the front edge of that, which was the, is this it phase? Because I think the front edge of what you’re talking about is you wake up one day and party phase and go, is this it? [00:49:01] Joe: Is this truly all there is? And there’s this pit that, uh, client after client told me, they went through of, wait a minute, there’s gotta be more. And then to your point, then this fulfilling role of becoming teacher, of becoming master instead of grasshopper starts to bloom. And really, it, it sounds like to your point, there’s this, there’s this blooming. [00:49:25] Douglas: It’s funny because I think the, I actually, in my notes on stage four is called, is this it? Oh, that’s funny. Yeah. So all of this is iterative, right? Like sure. We think of it as five steps and you go for, but like these things go in cycles, so nothing’s like fully as clear cut as we’re making it out to be. [00:49:43] Joe: But I think that the danger in that phase three, going back to the beginning of our conversation, I love what you said about enough, if you’re in this third phase of I’m teaching other people and you’re doing it because you don’t think you’re enough. [00:49:56] Douglas: Exactly. The problem’s gonna keep coming. It’s still ing your ego. [00:49:59] Douglas: Yeah. It’s, you still wanna be seen as something as successful. [00:50:03] Joe: Yeah. Right. [00:50:03] Douglas: And now financial independence or becoming, you know, a writer or whatever is the way you wanna be seen as successful. [00:50:11] Joe: Well, what happens in this fourth stage of doubt? [00:50:13] Douglas: Yeah. This fourth stage of doubt. Like, and I think honestly part of it is that like you realize, I. [00:50:20] Douglas: When you’re compelled to work before financial independence, you just have to keep on going, right? Like you push through with the, with the determination you do not have when you’re post-financial independence, right? Like any sort of like obstacles, like, oh, I don’t want to do this. I don’t have to do this, right. [00:50:37] Douglas: Why am I doing this? And I think that’s part the part of the beginning of phase four, which I call, is this it, um, doc G calls, uh, dysphoria. There’s this depression of like, who am I really? I have all these things and somehow it’s still not satisfying. I’ll just tell a quick example of one of my clients. [00:50:55] Douglas: He is a, he grew up in India, rural village, India, poor. And somehow, for some reason, he had a dream that one day he was gonna go to America and start a company to become rich. When he went to America in his teens, he said, he told me that when he was on the airplane, he went to the bathroom. He literally did not know what toilet paper was. [00:51:14] bit: Wow. [00:51:15] Douglas: Somehow we went to Silicon Valley, started up a company, sold it, had an exit event, and is worth some X millions of dollars. I don’t know how much, and he has everything he ever wanted as a kid. You know, you hear these stories of people in Hollywood or anyone who’s become rich like you hit a point where it’s like, oh, I’ve done everything I thought I ever wanted as a kid. [00:51:37] Douglas: And maybe that’s the key phrase as a kid, right? Like developmentally, we’ve achieved the things that we wanted when we were immature, and then we ask ourselves what next? And I think that’s the really interesting point of all of this story. What happens when I’ve achieved everything that I’ve ever wanted? [00:51:54] Douglas: And it’s still not making me happy. [00:51:56] Joe: Well, and I love the second half of that that you dropped there, which is the immaturity of those goals. Like I wanted those when I was a kid. And to your point, I think we changed, like we’re this ever evolving being and just because I achieve what I used to want doesn’t define me today. [00:52:13] Joe: There’s a, I’m at a different point than I was then. I mean, at one point I wanted to be either a firefighter, the president of the milkman, you know? [00:52:22] Douglas: Amazing. [00:52:24] Joe: One of the three. [00:52:25] Douglas: Well, I mean, to go back to Carl Young, who you mentioned in the very beginning, you know, Carl Young popularize, this idea that we have two halves of our lives. [00:52:33] Douglas: The first half of our lives. We build ourselves up, you know, we achieve things, we create things around us, we build security. And then not everyone does this developmentally, if we get to the stage. He called it the night sea journey. This journey through darkness, which I think is basically the stage four of depression. [00:52:51] Douglas: Most of us wanna avoid the depression and Carl Young says, no, we actually have to be, we have to move into it. And that’s what happens in stage five. A lot of people, like I know this other entrepreneur in Silicon Valley made a couple hundred million dollars in a startup age 30, and he buys his house in Maui and he thinks I’m set for life. [00:53:10] Douglas: I live in Maui in this like $10 million house. And when the dysphoria sit in, because he is just sitting there doing nothing on Maui all alone, he goes back and goes back to Silicon Valley. And I think that’s the danger of stage five. Like he can just go back to doing stuff. But you know, the second half journey, and maybe it was just too early for him because he was 30 years old. [00:53:31] Douglas: Second half journey is like, you realize I spent all my life doing. I haven’t figured out who I am, if I’m not doing anything, [00:53:40] Joe: which I think then is the ultimate acceptance, right? That I’m okay just being instead of doing, I’m being, [00:53:46] Douglas: yeah. [00:53:46] Joe: Which is a hard place to be. And also reminds me of, you know, my co-host og his, uh, one of his favorite phrases. [00:53:52] Joe: The only way is through like, when you feel this stuff, instead of trying to avoid it, shut it down. The only true way to get there is through. [00:54:01] Douglas: I mean, uh, Blaise Pascal, who was a French philosopher in the 16 hundreds, he talked about all the problems with mankind is stem from the inability of man to sit in his room, sitting quietly, doing his room, doing nothing. [00:54:12] Douglas: We constantly have to be moving because we have a basic discomfort about life. There’s something that we find really like uncomfortable about ourselves or about life if we just sat quietly and paid attention. And the only way out is through is through. [00:54:30] Joe: It’s funny, a book that was formative for me, this is a really old book, everybody, but I always felt like I had to be in a relationship. [00:54:36] Joe: I always had a girlfriend, Douglas. I always had some relationship, either a good relationship or a bad relationship, but there always was one. It was almost like the movie Jerry McGuire, Jerry Can’t Be Alone. If people remember that from that movie. I read this book by a guy named Richard Bach called Bridge Across Forever and in Bridge Across Forever. [00:54:55] Joe: He realizes. That you can’t be in a relationship with somebody else fully, unless you’re okay with you. If you’re not a hundred percent okay with you, how are you gonna bring anything to that? It’s, it is very difficult, but you gotta be okay with you first. And then you begin to realize that unless this relationship is perfect, it’s better to be with you. [00:55:18] Joe: It’s better to be alone. Like people are like, I don’t wanna be alone. Well, no, it’s actually better to be alone figuring out what you want and, and if you’re not, then it, I don’t know. It was this, it was this big wake up call. At that time for me, and I don’t know ever since then I, I kind of view, I’m not perfect at this, but I, you know, I struggle with it every day. [00:55:38] Joe: I gotta ask too, you must have struggled with these five yourself in the 10 years since you were financially independent. [00:55:44] Douglas: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, I didn’t like read this somewhere. [00:55:51] Joe: I’m gonna start preaching this. Oh, I don’t have to live this. [00:55:57] Douglas: You know, the way I understand it is money only solves money problems, which is surface level, but you know, be underneath even our money problems, this undercurrent of discontent, right? Like not enoughness. And I believe, you know, our not enoughness, whether it’s over consumption or overwork or just ways of distracting ourselves. [00:56:16] Douglas: Like we don’t want to actually understand or not enoughness that comes from inside. And I think the real prize of financial independence, financial independence is not the only way to get there, is creating enough time, you know. To actually see it and walk with it. [00:56:33] Joe: Everyone can find you at your podcast, which is also called The School of Financial Freedom. [00:56:38] Joe: I’m gonna mention the podcast ’cause you know, podcast listeners love getting more podcasts. And Douglas, in preparation, I, I listened to some, I dove into some of your recent stuff and, uh, you have these conversations on the podcast. [00:56:53] Douglas: Yeah. The School of Financial Freedom podcast is a supportive recording of my course, financial Freedom, which is where we talk about these issues. [00:57:01] Douglas: And it’s a two month course where you work with other people on your financial plans, Substack called Money and Meeting. And that’s set douglas Tsoi.substack.com. And my spiritual director website is just douglas Tsoi.com. [00:57:13] Joe: Awesome. And you know what? We’ll link to the podcast, we’ll link to the course, we’ll link to the substack on our show notes at Stacking Benjamins dot com. [00:57:20] Joe: Douglas, great to get to know you finally. Man, I feel like we’re in each other’s like outer sphere all the time. I’ve, I’ve seen your name all over, but it’s finally great to be in the same place. [00:57:29] Douglas: Yeah. Well, I can’t wait for the Formula one episode. [00:57:32] Joe: Absolutely. Well, we finally get those guys, but at least you and I got to talk Pine with Derby, my friend. [00:57:37] Douglas: That’s the Yes. Yeah. Thank you Joe. I just feel sorry for the person who came in fifth place on that one. [00:57:43] bit: Hey, this is Pete the planner, USA today money columnist and host of the Ask Pete the Planner podcast, when I’m not fixing the weirdest financial situations you’ve ever heard of. I’m Stacking Benjamins, huge thanks [00:57:57] Joe: to Doug for helping us, uh, look beyond the money. [00:58:01] Joe: That is nearly it for today. Time for a little short, uh, what we call the back porch. I was thinking while we’re away next week, we’ve got this Independence Day holiday coming up guys, and I think there have been so many crazy Independence Day things that have happened in my family. I’m sure you guys have gotta have some craziness. [00:58:23] Joe: Of course, OG you had, I think, was it a firework that your brother put in the trash can that burned your house down when you were a kid? That’s not hilarious, but it certainly is a story. [00:58:32] OG: No, no, it wasn’t a firework. It wasn’t no. Mm-Hmm. Oh yeah. I mean, I can turn it into a firework if you’re out of story ideas. [00:58:40] OG: It was so long ago. Nobody can really fact check me. [00:58:43] Joe: We could make it whatever we want. No, [00:58:44] OG: yeah. [00:58:45] Joe: I do have one that also the people can’t fact check, but I don’t think that I would bring this up if it wasn’t true. Of course. You know, a big sport in Michigan is to head up where neighbor Doug lives Northern Michigan, where things are absolutely beautiful. [00:58:57] Joe: And when we had this, uh, pop-up camper og, did your family have a pop-up camper? [00:59:02] OG: No. [00:59:03] Joe: No. You guys didn’t do camping? [00:59:05] OG: No, [00:59:06] Joe: not as a kid. You waited until you did Government sponsored camping. [00:59:09] OG: My grandparents owned a farm, so we had all the outdoors time that we needed. [00:59:13] Joe: Well, that was it. Yeah. My grandparents did a farm as well, and we would take the camper out there, but we went to se Agni State Park. [00:59:20] Joe: Very popular park at the bottom of the upper peninsula and Doug, how far is that from your house? [00:59:27] Doug: Uh, it’s probably an hour. It depends on the line at the bridge, but it’s probably an hour and 35 minutes. [00:59:33] Joe: On a 4th of July weekend. A 4th of July weekend, that park is packed. [00:59:38] Doug: Yeah. Just, yeah, I can believe that. [00:59:39] Joe: Absolutely. Packed. And so we traded in that popup camper for a Winnebago and Winnebagos. Of course. All of the, Doug’s giving me the, whoa. Hey. Yeah, I know. We were, I didn’t realize we were talking about that kind of money. I know. That’s a flex. That is a flex right there. Woo. We had the Winnie. I think it, it’s, that was No, we had the little, we had the brave. [01:00:01] Joe: We had the brave, um. And so there was all kinds of places to sleep. Everything. Of course, we had a table that turned into the big bed always. And then there was a bench where people could sit. And that bench turned into a place where my sister slept. My brother and I slept above where the driver compartment was. [01:00:21] Joe: There was no window, uh, you know, in the front, but there was a window on the side. So there was a window on on one side where our head was, and a window on the other side. So we would put our sleeping bags up there. I would get in first and then my brother would get in and we’d, you know, sleep happily ever after. [01:00:37] Joe: Most nights. So this crowded state park campground, it is maybe two o’clock in the morning. I have had a horrible nightmare. And I wake up from the nightmare and I open my eyes and all I see is a wall right in front of me. All I see is a wall. I. Then I try to move my arms and I don’t even know where the hell I am. [01:01:00] Joe: ’cause I just had a nightmare. I may be 14. I try to move my arms, my arms are inside my sleeping bag, and I can’t move my arms because the sleeping bag is there. So I decide that I’m gonna flip over. Well, I flip one side and now I’m staring at the ceiling, which if, if anybody’s ever been in Winnebago, that ceiling is right there. [01:01:18] Joe: I mean, this is a tiny compartment. So I go from wall, move, my arms can’t move, my arms flip over, ceiling can’t move my arms. I am in a little tiny box. I can’t freaking move. Joe flips out in the, in the middle of 4th of July weekend. Oh my God. I’m trapped. I’m trapped. Somebody help me. Somebody help me. My brother tries to get me. [01:01:44] Joe: ’cause I’m only half awake. My brother tries to shake me. He can’t get me to stop my, my brother goes, what do I do? And my dad goes. I don’t know, help him. Like what the hell are we gonna do? Uh, yeah. The park rangers came over to make sure we were okay. The neighbors all came over to make sure we were okay. [01:02:04] Joe: And, uh, I got a little bit of fame. I got my 15 minutes of fame as the kid that woke up the entire state park. It’s mal [01:02:12] Doug: lore in St. Ness, Michigan. Remember that kid? Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that actually most of that story sounds exactly like the MR MRI machine that I was in last night. See, I don’t ever [01:02:26] Joe: wanna do an MRI, ’cause I look at those machines and I’m like, I would be way too [01:02:30] Doug: freaking out. [01:02:31] Doug: It’s, you know, I’ve had, I’ve had a lot of MRIs. I mean, at least a dozen over the years. I don’t wanna brag, scoreboard. I mean, that’s right. I’m pretty experienced in the tube. I’m get good at these. And, uh, I have had some where there I was so relaxed, I dozed off to sleep and others where I, and I’m not claustrophobic. [01:02:51] Doug: And I started to get those feelings started to creep into my brain a little bit. Like, I need to move, I wanna move. I, you can’t, I don’t, tell me I can’t move now. I need to move. It’s like saying you can’t go to the bathroom for the next 50 miles because you know, there, all of a sudden you’ve gotta go to the bathroom. [01:03:05] Doug: Same thing. Right. Yeah, exactly. I had a Gatorade bottle right here, but uh, I was dozing off a little bit last night and woke up and the ceiling of that MRI tube is, it’s right at your nose. I got a big nose, but it’s right there. That’s what I was thinking of as you were telling that story. [01:03:25] Joe: I would love to hear our stackers 4th of July Independence Day holiday stories, because I’m sure that you have some. [01:03:31] Joe: We’d love to share them in the back porch. Write me Joe at Stacking Benjamins dot com if you’ve got one for now. We got one more story to tell and that’s the story of what you learned from today’s episode. And Doug, you’re gonna bring it home for us. What should we have learned today? [01:03:43] Doug: That’s my cue. Well, Joe, here’s what’s stacked up on our to-do list for today. [01:03:48] Doug: First, take some advice from Douglas Tsoi Financial Independence. That’s just the beginning, exploring what’s possible. Well, that’s a lifetime of fun. Second 8% and steady returns. Mom always says it so I’ll repeat it. She says I’ll repeat anything. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll repeat anything if it seems too good to be true. [01:04:10] Doug: Ugh. And then something after that. I don’t know, God supposed to have a memory. So what’s the biggest to do? Don’t ever tell tens of thousands of podcast listeners about a brilliant scheme you’ve come up with. No matter how fair it is, it’ll somehow get around to Brett’s mom and you do not wanna cross her. [01:04:34] Doug: Thanks to Douglas Tsoi for joining us today. You’ll find Douglas’ Podcast School of Financial Freedom wherever you’re listening to us now. Heck, just because I’m a giver, I’ll also include links in our show notes at Stacking Benjamins dot com, and thanks to my nephew Tyrone for helping with today’s show. [01:04:53] Doug: Wink, wink. This kid is amazing. [01:04:59] Doug: This show is the property of SB podcasts, LLC, copyright 2024, and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy . Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You’ll find out about our awesome team at Stacking Benjamins dot com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. [01:05:19] Doug: Come say hello. Oh yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s moms neighbor, Doug and. We’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamins Show. [01:05:52] OG: Do you guys find it stupid that coffee mugs generally are, you know, 89% of the population is right-handed and coffee mugs I know have the, the thing as you look at it, not just bad, it’s like, dude, this is my angel flight mug, but to everyone else, it’s just a plaino coffee mug on one side. [01:06:09] Joe: I know every time I wanna show our logo on screen, I gotta not have it by the. [01:06:15] Joe: By the thing. That’s funny you mention that [01:06:17] Doug: OG, because f***ing [01:06:18] Joe: pay. Look at this. Look at this. [01:06:20] Doug: Yeah. Ta da. When I picked this mug outta the cabinet today, I had to think, well wait, if I hold this up, are people gonna see Dew or Per and they’re not gonna know what do, although Dew might be applic, you know, appropriate Apropo for our show. [01:06:35] Doug: But per, per, they’re gonna know, oh, neighbor, Doug’s a boiler maker. We, we’ll, we’ll do the math. Figure out what per is. So this one, they, they kind of got, well, I’m know [01:06:43] Joe: Neighbor Doug likes to per. I know Neighbor Doug likes to pur. [01:06:47] OG: All I saw was Pu and then I definitely knew it was Purdue. [01:06:53] Doug: Smell it from here. Ha. You suck. [01:06:55] OG: Is that West Lafayette that I smell? [01:06:57] Doug: You’ve never set foot there. And you crab. I love, love the smell of West Lafayette [01:07:01] Joe: in the morning. [01:07:02] OG: I have set foot there. I was there for the greatest Michigan Purdue football game of all time. Oh, then we were there together. Rees got his. [01:07:09] OG: Yep. His, you know what? Pushed right in. [01:07:12] Doug: Oh, that’s not the game. We weren’t there together. ’cause I was there for, uh, the comeback when we beat Michigan. [01:07:17] OG: Yeah, that’s, that was not, no, this was the Ernie Shaar interception at the sideline. Um, not the best one. Breeze’s game-winning drive. Who cares? Who cares? I mean, come on. [01:07:27] OG: Who cares? Does [01:07:28] Doug: anybody care? [01:07:29] OG: I don’t care about that game. I was there with my brother as a matter of fact about brother. What? The game I [01:07:32] Doug: was at. Can we just, can I go, can I do the intro? [01:07:36] OG: No, no. We gotta, we gotta be labor. This, let, let’s just skip it. Let’s move on. What’s the headline? Skip the No intro today. [01:07:43] OG: Yeah. Go home Doug. Okay. [01:07:47] OG: — [01:07:47] OG: **Joe:** [01:07:47] —
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