You Don’t Need a Big Break to Become a Millionaire — You Need a Better System (SB1823)

Bola Sokunbi didn’t start with advantages. She started with a $54,000 salary she never negotiated, a rollover IRA mistake that cost her 40% of her savings, a tenant who stopped paying rent for eight months, and a first year of business that generated exactly $200. She’s also built one of the most influential personal finance brands in the country and helped millions of people on the path to becoming millionaires. The gap between those two things isn’t luck. It’s four pillars — and she walks through all of them today.

What You’ll Walk Away With

• The four wealth-building pillars that work in any combination — and why you only need one to start
• Why negotiating your salary isn’t about being aggressive — and the simple strategy Bola used to close a gap between $54,000 and the $70,000+ her peers were already making for the same work
• The rollover IRA mistake that cost Bola nearly 40% of her retirement savings in a single tax year — and exactly how to avoid it
• Why the investing pillar isn’t just a 401k — and the specific questions to ask yourself to know if you’re actually maximizing it
• The honest truth about real estate as a wealth-building vehicle — including what Bola learned from eight months of unpaid rent and a judge who heard everything
• How to get into real estate investing without ever becoming a landlord
• The entrepreneurship timeline nobody posts on social media — and the financial runway strategy that lets you build a business without blowing up your household finances
• Why the four pillars aren’t meant to be pursued one at a time — and how stacking them together is where the real wealth acceleration happens
• The one mindset shift that separates people who build wealth from people who keep waiting for the right moment
• Why starting late is a story we tell ourselves — and what the math actually says about investors who begin in their 40s or 50s

Why This Matters Now

If you’re in your 40s and you’ve been doing the right things — contributing to the 401k, avoiding bad debt, building some savings — but still feel like the millionaire milestone is someone else’s story, this episode is the reframe you didn’t know you needed. Wealth at this stage isn’t about finding a better investment. It’s about understanding which pillars you already have, which ones you’re leaving on the table, and how to combine them in a way that fits your actual life.

From the Basement

Bola Sokunbi joins Joe and OG to walk through the four pillars of her new book, Clever Girl Millionaire — and yes, the guys are allowed in today. Doug arrives with April Fools trivia involving the Tower of London and a very old prank about lion-washing that somehow still worked on Londoners in 1856. Joe and OG also spend the headline segment making what is either a very compelling case for strategic debt — or the most elaborate April Fools bit in Stacking Benjamins history. The basement scoreboard had nothing to do with any of it.

Resources Mentioned

Live Show — Stacking Benjamins and Afford Anything joint live recording, April 7th at Texas A&M Texarkana; details at stackingbenjamins.com/meetup

Clever Girl Millionaire by Bola Sokunbi — available wherever books are sold

Clever Girl Finance — free courses, worksheets, and resources at clevergirlfinance.com

Clever Girl Finance on YouTube and Instagram — @CleverGirlFinance

Grind by (coffee shop founder) — referenced by Joe during the entrepreneurship discussion

Stacking Benjamins Scorecard — assess your financial strategy at stackingbenjamins.com/scorecard

Stacking Benjamins Meetups — find a local group at stackingbenjamins.com/bad

FULL SHOW NOTES: https://stackingbenjamins.com/clever-girl-how-to-become-a-millionaire-1823

Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201

Enjoy!

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Our Headline

• As U.S. Debt Passes $39 Trillion, Americans Are Paying $900 Billion In Interest Annually (Forbes)

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Doug’s Trivia

• What famous London landmark reportedly housed the lions involved in the old “washing of the lions” April Fools prank?

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Want more than just the show notes? How about our newsletter with STACKS of related, deeper links?

• Check out The 201, our email that comes with every Monday and Wednesday episode, PLUS a list of more than 19 of the top money lessons Joe’s learned over his own life about money. From credit to cash reserves, and insurance to investing, we’ll tackle all of these. Head to StackingBenjamins.com/the201 to sign up (it’s free and we will never give away your email to others).

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Other Mentions

• Join One of our BAD Meetup Groups! (Benjamins After Dark)
• The Financial Freedom Scorecard

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Join Us Friday!

Tune in on Friday when, as we approach graduation season, we take a look at your own money report card. What should YOU know to graduate in your financial life?

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Written by: Kevin Bailey

Miss our last show? Listen here: What to Do With Your Money When the Market Is Scaring Everyone Else (SB1822)

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] opener: Hello, 

[00:00:03] opener: honey, I’m at the mall now and I found this beautiful leather coat. It’s only a thousand. Can I get it? 

[00:00:10] opener: Well, sure if you like it that much. 

[00:00:13] opener: Okay. Um, I also stopped by the Mercedes dealership and saw the new model. You know, the one I really like. How 

[00:00:18] opener: much? 

[00:00:19] opener: 120. 

[00:00:21] opener: Well, at that price I want to put all the options.

[00:00:24] opener: Great. Oh, and, and one more thing. The house we wanted last year back on the market, they’re, they’re asking 1.5. 

[00:00:32] opener: We’ll make them an offer, but come in at, uh, 1.4. 

[00:00:38] opener: Okay? I love you, baby. 

[00:00:40] opener: I love you too. 

[00:00:41] opener: Okay, bye. 

[00:00:43] opener: Um, does anybody know whose phone this is?

[00:00:55] Doug: Live from Joe’s mom’s basement. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[00:01:10] Doug: I am Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. And how would you like to become a millionaire? Let’s welcome our Wednesday mentor who teaches clever girls how to become millionaires. And today she said she’ll let the guys join too. The founder of Clever Girl Finance, Bola Sabi. In our headline segment, we have a headline that’s a shocker.

[00:01:31] Doug: Debt is up. That means if you don’t have debt, you’re getting behind. What does that mean for your wallet? We’ll help you chart a path toward better living on someone else’s dime. And of course you’ve asked for it. And I’ll deliver halfway through today’s show. Buckle up for my incredible trivia. And now two guys who are ready to help you kick off the month of April.

[00:01:54] Doug: It’s Joe and oh, ju ju g 

[00:02:00] Joe: Hey there, stackers. And does April make it officially spring, Doug, or is that in March? 

[00:02:05] Doug: That happened? That already happened. Yeah, like 10:46 AM on like the 21st or something of March. 

[00:02:12] Joe: It’s now baseball weather. 

[00:02:14] Doug: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:14] Joe: I remember growing up in Michigan and there’s still a foot of snow and you’re out there with your glove and some shorts.

[00:02:20] Doug: It’s not opening day at Comerica if there aren’t snowflakes in the air. 

[00:02:24] Joe: It’s, it’s, it’s gotta be a day to bundle up. Yeah. And celebrate Spring in the northern climates or OG for you and me down here in Texas. Uh, celebrate the fact that it’s not a hundred yet. 

[00:02:35] OG: I mean, it was a hundred last week, so, you know.

[00:02:39] OG: I always find it funny when I talk to Doug about my kids’ baseball. 

[00:02:42] Joe: Yeah. 

[00:02:42] OG: It’s like, yep. We got two weeks to go. He’s like, till the season starts, like, no, tilts over. 

[00:02:46] Joe: Yeah, 

[00:02:47] OG: we’re done. It’s like the kids in Michigan haven’t even got their stuff out of the closet yet. And we’re, uh, I remember 

[00:02:52] Joe: that with my kids’ track season just, uh, ending at the same time.

[00:02:55] Joe: It’s And week two. Yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy. The 

[00:02:58] OG: track’s almost over. 

[00:02:59] Joe: Well, speaking of crazy, it was crazy that we were able to get this woman back on the show. Bola Kuby is joining us today. She is the phenomenal mind behind clever girl finance bola and I, it’s so funny. I’ve got boy girl twins. She has boy girl twins.

[00:03:14] Joe: Our spouses are in very similar jobs for somebody that on the surface we have very little in common. She, she grew up in Austria by way of Africa. I grew up in the Midwest, but we have 

[00:03:28] OG: mite, 

[00:03:29] Joe: we have so much in common. The other thing we don’t have in common is she has helped millions of women. With her brand Clever Girl Finance, and it’s a very powerful brand.

[00:03:41] Joe: It’s helped so many people and today even our clever guys get to glean the wisdom of the amazing Bolus mb. She teaches us how to be millionaires. So that’s up next, but we’ve got a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We’re gonna hear from them. And then the Amazing Bolus Kombi teaching us the four pillars to begin building our platform toward millions.

[00:04:13] Joe: And I am so happy this woman’s back with us in mom’s basement, B com’s here. How are you? 

[00:04:18] Bola: I’m good, Joe. So happy to be here. How are you? 

[00:04:21] Joe: I am better now that I’m hanging out with you. Of course. I’ve been excited about this all week and I’m really excited that you have another book. This is book number six, bola.

[00:04:31] Bola: Yes, it is. 

[00:04:33] Joe: You might have a problem. You might be on this book writing Kick. 

[00:04:38] Bola: It’s actually book number seven. Title number six. 

[00:04:41] Joe: Why? Oh, because the workbook? 

[00:04:43] Bola: No, because I updated and expanded my very first book. 

[00:04:47] Joe: That’s right. Oh, you did well. And every time it’s such an adventure and I don’t wanna, that’s for a different podcast talking about the journey because.

[00:04:56] Joe: I think it’s fun. I think obviously you think it’s fun, you’ve done it so often. You’ve got this concept in your book though, about this idea of financial pillars, right? If we’re gonna become a millionaire, there are four pillars that you’re working from. First of all, let’s talk about the pillars. Where did the idea for the four pillars come from?

[00:05:14] Joe: Or is this? Is this Ebola truism that comes from a long line of thinking about this? 

[00:05:21] Bola: So I wouldn’t call it Ebola truism, but basically when I was thinking about outlining this book, clever Girl Millionaire, and my journey to building wealth and achieving this financial position, what are the things that I did that helped me get to this place?

[00:05:34] Bola: I started thinking and brainstorming what led me here. I was like, okay, I had these four strategic pillars that I leveraged at different times in different ways, making mistakes, adjusting, but these were the four foundational things that have allowed me to get to this place. And so that’s why I structured them that way into the book, basically pillars that helped me stand on this financial status today.

[00:05:55] Bola: Not anything unique to me, but basically what really helped me, 

[00:05:59] Joe: you know, as you’re even talking about this and you said the word foundational, it makes me ask the question, is the basic premise here, are we overcomplicating our money? 

[00:06:10] Bola: Yes. Listen, we do overcomplicate money, Joe. You know, money is simple and there’s not a lot of innovation when it comes to personal finance, especially when it comes to the specific things we need to do.

[00:06:20] Bola: We need to avoid debt, pay down debt, save, invest, et cetera. We know these are the things. The wheel is the wheel, right? It doesn’t change too much. Maybe products and services and the way we do it, technology changes, but the fundamental wheel of personal finance is what it is. But as human beings, our emotions come into play.

[00:06:40] Bola: Our feelings, life happens and that’s where the complexity comes into play. And money starts feeling hard when it’s really simple. And what makes it difficult is ourselves and life happening to. 

[00:06:52] Joe: It’s so funny because I used to feel like there were these hard and fast rules. And then I realized if I think in terms of the pillars that we’re gonna talk about, like then when life hits me, I’m able to be a little bit more resilient about what I do next.

[00:07:08] Joe: And I’m wondering, because to get into the idea of four pillars, is this pick a lane, like pick one of the four pillars? Or is this multiple streams when we’re thinking around pillars? 

[00:07:19] Bola: Mm-hmm. So the four pillars are earned income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. At the very minimum, you need the earned income pillar.

[00:07:28] Bola: This is you initially exchanging your time for money to bring income in, and then after that you can pick a pillar or layer pillars. 

[00:07:35] Joe: So if somebody is sitting in mom’s basement, let’s say hypothetically, and they’re thinking, I got a 401k, I think I’m fine, what are they missing? 

[00:07:46] Bola: So you can definitely do more within each pillar, right?

[00:07:49] Bola: And we can talk more about that. So for example, let’s start with earned income, right? This is you going to work to exchange your time for money. This is the foundational aspect of all these pillars, because when you get the money in, then you can put it towards investing towards your financial goals, real estate, starting a business, travel, all these things.

[00:08:06] Bola: But within that earned income pillar, there are opportunities for you to maximize this pillar. So have you thought about negotiating your salary? Are you using your earning potential strategically in terms of how you’re putting that money to work for you? Right? It’s really important that we’re maximizing each one of these pillars.

[00:08:22] Bola: You know, it’s beyond just having that 401k, but what else are you doing in terms of investing? Have you opened an IRA in addition to that 401k? Have you opened a regular brokerage account in addition to that 401k? How are you investing within each of those? Vehicles, right? Are you just buying individual stocks?

[00:08:37] Bola: Are you leveraging index funds and ETFs? Are you buying bonds? So each pillar is not a one thing you do with within it and be done. It’s basically thinking about how can I maximize the effect of each pillar for myself, 

[00:08:50] Joe: I’m taking this, uh, improv class, you’ll appreciate this bola I’m taking this, uh, class through Second City to actually get away from dad jokes and say some things that are funny once in a while.

[00:09:01] Bola: Okay. 

[00:09:02] Joe: But, but what they teach you is kind of the same thing. It isn’t. No, but it’s yes and right. It’s, I make more money by advocating for myself and then it’s what I do with it is what you’re saying. It’s where I go next. So it’s not one thing. It’s Yes. And I do this and then I do something else. And by the way.

[00:09:20] Joe: Yes. And the reason I bring it up that’s a foundation for people that don’t know of improv is that mm-hmm. You say something and I go, yes. And where our natural reaction for most of us is we say, well no, but I was thinking we’d go this way instead. Instead you say, yes, I accept that premise and let’s see if we can go to the next level.

[00:09:38] Bola: I like that. 

[00:09:39] Joe: Let’s dig into some of these for just a moment though. Advocating yourself raises and promotions, that sounds easy, but I am a guy that’s employed people for a long time and there’s a way to do it and a way not to do it. How do you suggest people begin getting on the road to advocating better?

[00:09:55] Bola: So I’ll use myself as an example. When I got my first job, first job I’d ever had in the us, I got a job as a consultant. Uh, my salary was $54,000 before taxes. I don’t know what benefits I got because I was just excited to get this job. And I remember a few months later at a lunch meeting with my coworkers, they started talking about salary.

[00:10:13] Bola: And that’s a conversation HR hates for you to have. And a lot of my peers, maybe there was like 10 of us at this table. Exact same qualifications as me. Exact same job. We sat at the same desk together every day. I was making 54,000. One of them was making 70,000. Wow. 68,000, 75,000. And the difference between them and me was that they asked, I did not ask.

[00:10:35] Bola: I was just so excited. I accepted it. And that for me was an eye-opening moment. I was embarrassed and I was annoyed. I’m like, Bola, you should have asked for more. And so that lit a fire under me. And I started thinking to myself, how can I ask for more? Because basically what that has done is even if I get a promotion, I’m going to get a raise based on that salary that I never negotiated, right?

[00:10:55] Bola: And so I went up to my career counselor, which we had assigned to us. Or if you have a mentor at work, or a leader at work, or some, a friend at work that you trust that’s at a higher position. And I said, listen, what can I do to start advocating for myself at work? And the advice she gave me, she was like, do your best work, which is what you’re doing, but make sure that your manager.

[00:11:13] Bola: Knows that you’re doing your best work and position yourself to get the best possible raises and other benefits so that when you leave this job, you have a better place to negotiate from. And that basically meant telling my boss, oh, you know that product that we worked on, I completed it. I’d love to get your feedback.

[00:11:29] Bola: And then she said, keep a checklist of all the things you’ve done really well at this company. No matter how small, save every congratulatory or well done email from your boss. That way when you go into your promotion meeting or your assessment meeting, you know, you can say, by the way, boss, it’s been a great year for me.

[00:11:44] Bola: Look at all these amazing things that I have done. And she’s like, practice having that conversation. And it’s not a fight, it’s not an argument. It’s you going to your boss having this conversation and saying, boss, I’ve done all these amazing things. And she said also. Reach out to your boss once a month, every six weeks and just say, Hey boss, can I have a quick check-in?

[00:12:02] Bola: So you stay top of mind. And that worked for me so effectively, and I was able to negotiate each promotion. And by the time I left that job and I got into my last corporate job before I got the idea to start my business, I was a super negotiator. I remember I went for my last interview and the boss was introducing me around.

[00:12:19] Bola: They hadn’t given me the offer letter yet, but he said, meet bola. She’s going to be in the position that we’ve been trying to fill for the last two years. And when I heard two years, I was like, ding, ding, ding. That means they need me. So not only did I negotiate my salary, I was able to get a work from home plan once a week.

[00:12:35] Bola: At the time when nobody was working from home, I negotiated getting a Mac computer when everybody had windows. I negotiated my vacation time from two weeks to three weeks. I negotiated an ergonomic cheer. That cost $2,000. I negotiated everything possible, and I just asked. I’m like, oh, hey, what kind of chair am I gonna sit on?

[00:12:52] Bola: Oh, you know, I use a Mac on my last computer, can I get a Mac now? I just asked. And it was yes, no, yes, yes. No, no. And so when I started that job, you know, there was a manager there who was upset about my chair at my computer, and I’m like, the boss’s office is right there. Go and ask. So you have to ask, knowing that the worst response you’re gonna get is no.

[00:13:11] Bola: And you know what you do when you get that note, you shelf it, and then in three months you revisit it, you ask again. 

[00:13:17] Joe: I spoke with a woman a couple years ago, Bola who said, uh, you have to think like an auctioneer. You know? 

[00:13:25] Bola: Yes. I love that. 

[00:13:26] Joe: Just keep going until you get no, and then you get no, and you’re like, okay, well then the one below that is, is where we’re at.

[00:13:32] Joe: But, but you’re always at no until you ask. I love that. Yes, yes idea. Yeah. And advocating for yourself. I think it’s so important for people because in so many cultures you don’t want to brag. You don’t wanna be, you know, the person who really stands out with the peacock feathers going, look at me all the time.

[00:13:50] Joe: Like, to me, in the way that I grew up, that just seems to be, whoa, just horrible. But I’ve learned over time, and I think like you have that it isn’t, that people are busy and you have to tell them what you’ve done. 

[00:14:03] Bola: Yes. And there’s a tax to it. There’s a difference between arrogant. Just really showcasing what you’ve done and the value you bring to your workplace.

[00:14:10] Bola: And sometimes they don’t see that value and it’s time for you to move on, but it’s not about arrogance. I think they’re showing off. Nobody wants to look arrogant. It’s not a good character to have. But there’s a way you talk and you speak and you email and you present yourself in the workplace, that you make yourself memorable and your value is recognized.

[00:14:26] Joe: This is another reason I think that you and I are friends is because of this next thing that you wrote in your book, which I think is so important. When you’re young, you wanna invest because of compounding interest, but you make a big point of saying, one of the biggest investments you can make is investing in you.

[00:14:43] Joe: And this is a thing I think that we forget about. I feel like bola, we think about our investment strategy as. Roth IRA 401k. A few things in a brokerage account. We don’t think of our investing strategy as, what’s the next class I’m taking, what’s the next thing that I’m doing? What’s a great way to begin this curriculum, I guess, of investing in your skills?

[00:15:07] Bola: Yeah, so the one thing to keep in mind is that you are the assets in this world you are building, you are the major assets. And so you always wanna think about how can I grow, right? And so when you get a job, if you’re working. For a company, for an organization, or even in your own business, you only wanna think about what does future me look like?

[00:15:26] Bola: What do I want future me to look like in terms of what I want to achieve with my goals, with my career, with my business? So are there skills you can get that can help you get a better position, help you get more income in? Are there skills you can do that help you provide your services and your products to your clients better?

[00:15:41] Bola: You always want to be thinking that way. How can I elevate myself skills, certifications, books, and also the power of networking, right? You can’t build in isolation. And I had to learn that, especially as an introvert. There are people out there who want to know people like you and who are gonna put people like you in certain rooms just by mere introductions.

[00:16:00] Bola: And so networking is also a part of that growth and that self-development, because people open doors for other people and eventually you then become that person that opens doors for other people too. 

[00:16:10] Joe: I had to get around and maybe you had to get around the same thing. That networking does not equal small talk because as an introvert I generally can’t fricking stance to small talk.

[00:16:22] Bola: And listen, I’ve had some nonsensical networking experiences that I’m like, I hate people. Get away from me, 

[00:16:31] Joe: Bo. I just bought this coaster. You would love this coaster. Maybe I need to send it to you. It says, it says, I want you to invite me. I’m just not gonna come. 

[00:16:41] Bola: That is me. I’m not coming, 

[00:16:43] Joe: but I do wanna be invited.

[00:16:45] Joe: Please invite me. But I think we have to get around that. When we think about networking, like how do you think about networking? 

[00:16:52] Bola: For me it’s deep relationships. I do not like small talk, right? For me, I’m not gonna go to a conference and have my phone and collect phone numbers because none of those relationships are memorable.

[00:17:02] Bola: If you contact them, it’s like, oh, who was that? Did I meet you? I gave you my business card. Collecting business cards and random small talk is not networking. I see it happen time and time again. Hi, my name is Soandso. Can I get your business card? Hi, my name is so and so and so can I get your business card?

[00:17:16] Bola: And you get random emails in your inbox. You’re like, who is this annoying person? It is developing relationships. So for me, some of my biggest networking opportunities have come from meeting people like you, connecting organically, having conversations, getting to know each other from bosses that I did a great job working for.

[00:17:31] Bola: And I said, listen, I’m starting a business, you know, this is what I’m doing. Can you mentor me? So. A lot of times the network you need to build already exists in your life. It is connecting better with those people like your bosses, people at your job that maybe you admire, that accomplish something big.

[00:17:46] Bola: People in your broader friends network that know other people, that maybe you’ve met them a few times or you’ve never really connected with them deeply. Those could be people that you could potentially build deep relationships with, not randomly collecting business cards. From people. 

[00:17:58] Joe: It is so much more fulfilling.

[00:18:00] Joe: It is funny because you and I have lived as we’ve known each other a few years, different lives, but so fricking parallel, like 

[00:18:09] Bola: I mean our twin connection alone, 

[00:18:12] Joe: just that alone telling Cheryl, I’m like, there’s this woman who on the surface is so different than me and we’ve got so many things that are parallel to each other, but you only get that when you have a little deeper relationship.

[00:18:24] Joe: And that’s what makes life for me a lot more fun and makes networking, frankly, a lot more fun. Is there. So now we’ve increased our income and we’ve got this engine running that’s going to make us have more money. Now we put that money to work, which is your second pillar, investing Now we don’t wanna blow it.

[00:18:43] Joe: So you emphasize starting early, but a lot of people feel late. What do you say to people that tell you, I think I’m too late. 

[00:18:50] Bola: I think it’s important to dance your own financial beat. And I, I really stress on that in the book, you are on your own timeline, right? There are people who build incredible wealth and life happens and they lose all of it and they have to start over.

[00:19:02] Bola: So you are starting at your own time. That’s what I like to say. I started early and I made ridiculous mistakes and I had to recover, which I ta I talk about in the book. But the key is to starting now. There is this idea that perpetuated that, you know, 65 is the line in the sand. We all want to get to 65 and retire.

[00:19:20] Bola: But the thing is that when we get to age 65, which is our standard traditional retirement age, you can choose to retire earlier, you can work your plan that way is that at 65 you don’t get there and drop dead. There is life beyond 65. Your money is working for you 20, 30 years. In the US on average retirement is about 25 to 30 years.

[00:19:37] Bola: That’s more time. Your money has to grow and work for you. And when you get to a 65, you’re not calling your back and saying, sell everything. Cash it all out. Send it to me. I’m retiring today. You are taking out a certain percentage and the rest of your money keeps growing. Many retirees, as long as they have their health, they’re not sitting down on their couch watching TV all day.

[00:19:57] Bola: They’re pursuing second careers, passion products, et cetera. So starting late is just this idea that has been perpetuated in us by what society expects us to be at a certain age. If you are starting at 30, 40, 50, 60, the key is to start right and start putting money to work for you and let the time and compounding work to your favor.

[00:20:17] Bola: Because guess what? Even if you think you’re starting late and you don’t start at all, the time is gonna go by anyway. And then in another five years you’ll look back and be like, oh, I’m starting late. But just start. 

[00:20:28] Joe: I’m even thinking as you’re talking, of course we want the compounding, but even without the compounding, just the fact that I put some money away, that bought me flexibility 

[00:20:34] Bola: and it’s growing.

[00:20:35] Bola: Yes. 

[00:20:36] Joe: Even if it does very little, if it just keeps up with inflation, that’s good. Not what we’re looking for, but it’s a step in the right direction. Let’s talk about mistakes ’cause you brought it up. Nothing. I like talking about more than mistakes. What are some mistakes that not just bola made? Joe probably made them too, but you see beginners make over and over and over.

[00:20:54] Bola: So I think the mistakes when it comes to money is just really a lack of knowledge and a lack of intention around our goals. For me, a lot of my mistakes were lack of knowledge and a lack of intention around my goals, right? So I did the right things. I went to the HR meeting. When I got my first job, I contributed to my 401k.

[00:21:11] Bola: I got the match. I was putting money every paycheck, and it was growing and growing, and I got a new job and I did the right thing. I didn’t leave my money at my former employer. I didn’t roll it into my new employer’s 401k. I opened up a rollover IRA, so I could be exposed to the entire market. And guess what Bola did?

[00:21:27] Joe: You bought individual stocks. 

[00:21:28] Bola: No, I was like, send me the check. I’m just gonna put it in my bank account and I’ll roll it over to my IRA later. And then I forgot, and I didn’t realize it was a 60 day window in which you had to make that rollover. I also didn’t realize that I didn’t need to get that check.

[00:21:41] Bola: I could just had my employer’s brokerage just send it over to the new brokerage directly. But Paula kept the money in her bank account. And then at the end of the year, it was time to file taxes. Not only did I get hit with income tax of whatever percentage I got hit with the penalty, and I lost almost 40% of that savings.

[00:21:58] Bola: And I’m like, what did I do wrong? What I did wrong was not having the knowledge. A little bit of a responsibility sprinkle in there. So that was one mistake. You know, that was a job I worked at for about four and a half, five years, and that was time and money lost just by that simple mistake. So when it comes to mistakes, we cannot beat ourself up.

[00:22:19] Bola: We have to assess what went wrong, take the lessons, and just move forward. You know, I also talk in the book about my crazy wedding that was incredibly expensive, inviting people I didn’t know. I didn’t like to eat crazy per head plates. And then after we got married, we were eating rice and beans because we had no money.

[00:22:36] Joe: Because you spent it on one big party. 

[00:22:38] Bola: I mean, did we need to have it? No. Do we need to do that? No. In retrospect, listen, I would’ve told my husband, let us elope. Do not tell anybody. We’ll just show up tomorrow and say we’re married. But we live and we learn mistakes are part of life, right? And so it’s just assessing what went wrong.

[00:22:54] Bola: And the most important thing about mistakes is not allowing yourself to stay stuck and reversing your thinking about what you consider a mistake. A mistake is going to happen. It’s inevitable. It’s part of life, it’s part of growth. So think about it as a stepping stone to where you’re trying to get to next.

[00:23:10] Bola: ’cause now you know better, you can do things better, you can readjust things better, you know, not to let certain situations happen and et cetera. 

[00:23:17] Joe: Uh, let’s say I’ve just become part of, uh, clever Girl Nation. I got my first 401k. I’m looking at all these choices. Ebola, I’m looking at all of this stuff, like where do I begin to parse?

[00:23:31] Joe: Like, what should I do when I’m just getting started investing in my first 401k? 

[00:23:38] Bola: I think if you’re just getting started, just make it simple. And when it comes to investing, you know, especially the stock market, you don’t need to be Jim Cramer. You don’t need to be a super expert. You just need to know the foundations.

[00:23:48] Bola: You’ve just got that 401k you just heard your employer has gotten a match. Like I did just pick an index fund, total market index fund. Sometimes employers only give you one option. My first employer just gave me one option. It was a mutual fund and I just put my money in there. It was expensive, but I was investing.

[00:24:03] Bola: And then start learning about how investing works. Pick up an investing book, check out Clever Girl Millionaire, and then you can start to adjust your plan accordingly. But definitely take the match. Definitely start putting money away for your future self, and then you can readjust the plan as you learn more.

[00:24:18] Bola: But don’t let analysis paralysis keep you stuck where you know you don’t put any money in the 401k because you don’t know where to put it. 

[00:24:25] Joe: I think that’s the big key is that so many people feel like they’re stuck. Like the analysis paralysis thing is real and they’re like, oh my goodness, I got 87 choices.

[00:24:32] Joe: I’m not sure which one to do, so I’m not gonna do anything. Which is by far, to your point, the worst thing to do. 

[00:24:37] Bola: Yeah, pick one. Pick one, and then readjust. 

[00:24:39] Joe: Just go. Next up is real estate and entrepreneurship. The third pillar, you stress cash flow over appreciation if you’re gonna get into properties. Why does that matter?

[00:24:50] Bola: So when you’re thinking about real estate as a pillar, I’m not talking about your home, right? The home that you live in, I’m talking about leveraging real estate as a way to bring money in. Appreciation is great in real estate, but it’s not guaranteed, right? We all know how real estate markets can work over time when you’re living in a house.

[00:25:07] Bola: Or you buy a house for your own personal use, you’re buying this house or living it for an extended period of time. Hopefully, as long as life is not changing for you, you’re paying off your mortgage, you have this asset, maybe you’re transitioning as part of your generational wealth plan, that’s great.

[00:25:19] Bola: But when you’re thinking about leveraging real estate to make money, appreciation is not guaranteed. Especially if you’re trying to sell the property at a specific time to make money, you can’t guarantee that. What you wanna be able to guarantee is that every month after I’ve paid the mortgage, I’ve paid all the bills associated to this property.

[00:25:33] Bola: When I get that rental income in the gap between my mortgage and the rental income is giving me a profit. That is what you want to focus on every single month and have a appreciation as a perk. So that’s important. When I think about real estate and becoming a landlord. Now real estate is not for everybody.

[00:25:49] Bola: Listen. I tried it and I got a dose of a tenant from hell. 

[00:25:56] Joe: This is by the way, and I mentioned earlier, we have so much in common. I know you and I talked about this when we were together before, we have this in common too, just not for me. 

[00:26:07] Bola: Again, I tried this pillar. I did eventually come back to this pillar, but in a different way, right?

[00:26:11] Bola: So these pillars are not set in stone. It’s all about customizing them in a way that’s gonna work for you. Customize the jobs you apply to, you customize what you invest in the stock market, and you customize how you invest in real estate and if you choose to invest in real estate. So for me, I had two rental properties.

[00:26:27] Bola: One was going great, the other one was going great until my tenant decided not to pay rent. And in my mind, I had built a buffer from my house for repairs, for things like that. But I didn’t really factor in not getting eight months of my mortgage, of my rent, eight 

[00:26:40] opener: months 

[00:26:41] Bola: to pay my mortgage. Yes. I also did not factor in.

[00:26:45] Bola: What it really meant to be a property manager when you have a bad tenant. Because my tenant, I don’t know what life situation she went through and I, I have empathy for her, but she changed drastically. She was fighting with the neighbors. Police were coming around, they were calling me all the time, not paying rent, not paying utilities, not doing all these things.

[00:27:04] Bola: And people are calling me. I’m getting emails from her all the time. I’m like having to ask for my money, and that’s not something I’m very comfortable with doing. Where is my money? Where is my money? Then we have to go to court. So it was kind of like, what is this? This is taking out time outta my life that I don’t want to be spending on this.

[00:27:22] Bola: And we get to court and the judge asks her, why have you not paid your rent? She’s like, well, my dad didn’t teach me the value of a dollar. 

[00:27:29] Joe: What? 

[00:27:30] Bola: And I was like, okay, I have empathy for you. But at some point, as an adult, we have to take ownership. We have to take responsibility, and we have to stop blaming.

[00:27:39] Bola: Our, if I choose to blame my parents for all the things they did not teach me at my big age today, listen, just throw me away 

[00:27:50] Joe: and I’m done. Yeah. 

[00:27:51] Bola: Because there’s a lot of things my parents didn’t teach me, but at some point I have to stop blaming them. 

[00:27:56] Joe: I know my parents didn’t teach me the value of a dollar.

[00:27:58] Joe: That’s surprising. I don’t know. A little offensive, like, what does that have to do with you and making, that’s 

[00:28:03] Bola: what the judge asked her. He was like, evicted. 

[00:28:06] Joe: Yeah. And you’re gone. 

[00:28:07] Bola: So, yeah. So real estate is one of those things where you have to know what you’re getting into. So me, I did not enjoy the.

[00:28:13] Bola: Property management. In customer service. I have a friend who has done incredibly well in real estate. He has 17 properties, he manages with a property manager. So I stepped outta real estate ’cause I didn’t enjoy it and I stepped back in with REITs and also my husband and I, we invest in physical properties but not as individuals with groups.

[00:28:31] Bola: So we never have to go there. We never have to send an email, we never have to pursue rent. None of that. That is, so that’s a different angle to which we still invest in real estate. And you may decide that, you know what? Real estate is not for me at all. I don’t even wanna put my money in a REIT in a investment trust fund.

[00:28:45] Bola: And that’s fine. You can look at other avenues like stock market investment, which we just talked about, pillar two or entrepreneurship, which is pillar four. 

[00:28:52] Joe: Well, and it’s interesting that you say that because when we talk about buying a re, I mean, it’s so easy. For stackers that don’t know. You had mentioned, you know, buying just an index fund, you could buy a real estate index, you could buy just that and then you could still have it in your portfolio.

[00:29:08] Joe: But what I really like about what you said, you know, we did an interview a few weeks ago with these, uh, two researchers about stock market maestros and what the best stock market investors do. And a ton of it polo was they know themselves, they know their biases. And for me, if I was going to get back into real estate, and I do have real estate investment trust, but if I was going to go with individual properties, I would know myself a bunch better and plan for.

[00:29:34] Joe: Those biases that I have. Yes. Meaning I don’t wanna go be Joe. The money collector. 

[00:29:44] Bola: The debt collector. 

[00:29:45] Joe: That’s right. I can see bolus showing up at the house of the baseball bat. Like I, you know that. No, we don’t want anything to do with that. Let’s talk entrepreneurship. I think there’s an important thing that people always wonder, which is, you know, entrepreneurship at the beginning is hard.

[00:30:01] Joe: There’s a book that I’ve been reading just recently from a guy who created a chain of coffee shops in the Midwest. In fact, I have it right here. It’s called Grind Coffee Shop Grind. Oh, that’s 

[00:30:13] Bola: cool. Yes. 

[00:30:15] Joe: Yeah. Grinding coffee. But he does talk about bola, what you and I already know as entrepreneurs. The first few years are really, really hard and you have to think a lot about marketing, but is, and there is a risk there.

[00:30:24] Joe: So how do you get into entrepreneurship and balance that risk without blowing up your entire financial life? 

[00:30:32] Bola: So I have a lot to say about entrepreneurship. I don’t often get to talk about it because I always have my financial expert hat on. But entrepreneurship changed my life, and it’s not just this business for context, both of my parents are first generation, everything grade school, high school, college, and they came out of that with the responsibility of their.

[00:30:49] Bola: Broader extended family. Even till this day, taking care of siblings and cousins, paying rent and tuition, housing, meals, people were always in our house because my parents were the first in their family to achieve something. And so I grew up thinking about, you know, watching my parents sacrifice a lot and watching them just take a lot away from themselves in order to support all of us.

[00:31:10] Bola: So when I got my first job, I wanted to find ways to make more money. I wa watched my mom become a side hustle queen in Nigeria. She went to college after she had her four kids in her thirties, became an investment banker, was running side hustles, and then she migrated here just wanting to again, continue to provide a better life for herself, her kids, her extended family.

[00:31:27] Bola: My mom started working as a nanny because her education did not transfer and then a certified nurse’s aid, and then she eventually pursued her dream of becoming a nurse. So for me, I wanted to be able to make my parents proud and just bring money in so that I could also support in the way that I could.

[00:31:41] Bola: So when I think about entrepreneurship, it doesn’t have to be a big excessive over the top business. My first little side hustle was an Avon lady. I was an Avon lady harassing my aunties and my mom’s friends to buy my Avon products so I could have a little pocket money. You know, I was trying to figure out, living through college, I started as photography side hustle.

[00:32:00] Bola: I also worked as a nanny to bring money in, and those are things that I did to help me further my goals. Now, when it comes to quitting your job to run a business, that’s where it can get really difficult, right? ’cause you’re trying to scale this thing, get it on its feet, have it become profitable so that you can live your life based on this business you have gotten.

[00:32:21] Bola: And I always tell people, pace yourself. So when I started this business, clever Girl Finance. What I did, I was like, okay, I do not want my dream and my pursuit of this business to impact my family’s finances. I’m not a big risk taker, so what I’m gonna do is put aside 12 months of my core, essential finances that I need to support my household, what I was doing right, and then I’ll test out this business.

[00:32:42] Bola: If it doesn’t work out, I’m gonna dust off my resume. In fact, I kept it current and I’m gonna go back and find a job, so it’s okay to work. I worked full-time until I could no longer sustain my full-time job, my photography business, and clever girl finance. And then I thought about getting a part-time job, but I was like, okay, I still have this runway.

[00:32:58] Bola: Let me make that work. It’s okay to work part-time. While you pursue your full-time business, pace yourself. Give yourself grace. Knowing that we see a lot of sensationalism on social media. I started a business today. I’m a billionaire tomorrow, my business has taken off a billion dollars in sale. Don’t get carried away by that kind of stuff.

[00:33:15] Bola: Most times it’s not like that. There’s tears, there’s grinding, there’s pivoting, there’s readjusting. 

[00:33:21] Joe: Somebody even told me once, Pola, they said, what you’re seeing on social media is the top 1% bragging about their top 1% of their moments. 

[00:33:29] Bola: Yes. It’s a highlight reel. 

[00:33:31] Joe: It’s not just the top 1%. It’s the top 1% bragging about their top 1%.

[00:33:34] Bola: Yep. 

[00:33:35] Joe: There’s no reality there. 

[00:33:36] Bola: Exactly. So pace yourself. Entrepreneurship can be great, but you also need to understand what you’re getting into. It’s not a one and done thing. You’re gonna have to adjust, pivot, market, come back, readjust, pivot, market, step out of your comfort zone. There may be times, I mean the first year of cover finance, I made $200.

[00:33:54] Bola: I 200. I was like, whatcha doing? 

[00:33:59] Joe: What’d you do with both of those? Benjamins bola, 

[00:34:03] Bola: I dunno. I paid taxes. 

[00:34:07] Joe: That’s pretty, pretty amazing. Tax on 200 bucks. Did you set that aside? We should have done the whole interview based on that. But you set all that money aside. What did you do? Set up a separate savings account.

[00:34:21] Bola: I probably had to pay my website bill, which is like two 50 a month. Something I don’t remember. 

[00:34:26] Joe: There’s a few things I wanna highlight that you said. For our stackers though, number one was. You gave yourself a runway, but that runway included an end of the runway going, you know what? I’m gonna do it for X amount of time.

[00:34:37] Joe: I’m gonna see how it goes. I’m gonna grind, I’m gonna pivot. I’m gonna do the things I need to do. And if it’s not successful, I’m gonna be okay with the fact of going and doing something else. I’m gonna pivot again. And I think that’s important, but I also think that it’s important, the fact that you looked at where your income streams would come during that time, either having part-time income coming in from other places, setting money aside ahead of time, like giving yourself that thought process.

[00:35:02] Joe: It blows me away when I see somebody start a restaurant and they sell everything. You know, they do. The old, uh, Greek mythology burn the ships when we’re attacking. 

[00:35:11] Bola: They cash out their 4 0 1 ks, everything, put it all into this business because they read some celebrity wealthy person did that. I’m like, that is one person in a sea of millions of business owners around the world.

[00:35:23] Bola: That’s a risk I cannot afford to take. I did not touch my 4 0 1 KI elected alone. In fact, it gave me so much anxiety having to pause those contributions when I quit my job because I felt like, oh my God. 

[00:35:35] Joe: Yeah, 

[00:35:35] Bola: my free money. 

[00:35:37] Joe: Yeah. I mean, because you really are, you think about the amount of money if you would’ve stayed on that path, but then you think about the value of your time and what you really wanted to do, and to your point.

[00:35:45] Joe: Exactly. It’s so valuable and it can be so, so, so fun. 

[00:35:49] Bola: You have to create a balance that makes sense. And also I find that when you’re starting a business, it’s a high anxiety time, high stress, high pressure. It’s like a newborn baby that you’re trying to put all of your efforts into. The last thing you want to have is a financial burden in the back of your head that’s allowing you to fully focus on this business, on this baby, because.

[00:36:09] Bola: You haven’t created a strategy or a plan to help your business, to give your business the grace to get on top of, its on its feet. 

[00:36:15] Joe: We have one more thing to talk about, and for me, this is the coolest thing in this particular chapter that you and I have been diving into chapter three of your book, and it is this idea that yes, these are pillars and while they stand alone, they also raise a shared roof.

[00:36:36] Joe: And so you’ve got this. Combination aspect of the pillars where now the way we do this, the secret sauce is not go, no, no, no, I’m just gonna earn more money, or I’m just gonna invest, or I’m just gonna do real estate, or I’m gonna just gonna do entrepreneur. Nope. I take these pillars now and I work them together.

[00:36:52] Joe: Now I fuse them like a chef. Right. And so you do that at the end. Is there a best combo of these pillars, or is it personality driven? Is there a way you think about the pillars in conjunction with each other? 

[00:37:04] Bola: The best combo is what fits into your life and works for you and allows you to have peace of mind around your finances.

[00:37:10] Bola: So for me, my foundation was earned income. I used my earned income to start my investing and continue my investing pillar. I leveraged my earned income to build into my real estate pillar. Didn’t work out. I pulled out of that pillar. I used my earned income to build into my entrepreneurship pillar, leveraged my entrepreneurship pillar to put more money into my investing pillar and also my real estate pillar because I invest in those two pillars through my entrepreneurship.

[00:37:37] Bola: So it’s all about combining these pillars in a way that works for you, Stacking them, pulling out if you need to, coming back into one. But it has to fit your lifestyle because it’s a long-term play. 

[00:37:47] Joe: It’s so interesting. I mean, looking at earned income for, into investing real estate into entrepreneurship, multiple streams for resilience, right?

[00:37:55] Joe: Just having the resilience because you have these and really thinking about that earned income, that first pillar, like it’s a booster rocket. You can jettison it once you’re making enough money on the other places. You know, a dream, I think of a lot of our stackers and a lot of your clever girls is to tell their boss where to go.

[00:38:15] Joe: Or at least, you know, maybe they love their boss, but they know that if they don’t love their boss in the future, they have the ability to do that. 

[00:38:22] Bola: Yes, yes. It’s power. Then buy. 

[00:38:24] Joe: So power, yeah, that’s just a taste. Stackers. The book is amazing. Like all ebola’s work is so, so, so good. It’s called Clever Girl Millionaire, and I believe it was available everywhere yesterday.

[00:38:38] Bola: Yes. 

[00:38:39] Joe: Awesome. And if people want to dive into the Clever Girl community, how do they do that more? 

[00:38:45] Bola: Yes, you can find us@clevergirlfinance.com. We have 30 plus free courses, 40 plus worksheets, YouTube channel at Clever Girl Finance, Instagram at Clever Girl Finance. In your browser, put in Clever Girl Finance, or in your chat ai, your chat, GPT, your cloth.

[00:39:02] Bola: Put in Clever Girl Finance and you’ll find us. And I just wanted to add, Joe, for your listeners, you know when people hear the word millionaire, it can be a bit apprehensive. It can feel like it’s outta touch. But remember, this is a journey. This is a marathon. It’s not a sprint to give yourself grace. I made many mistakes and I have been building for many, many years.

[00:39:21] Bola: And so pace yourself, work your plan, adjust your plan, but don’t give up.

[00:39:30] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug, and I’m glad you knew we weren’t fooling around today, even though it’s April 1st. How about bolus Aun be huh? Now you’re all on the road to becoming millionaires. Before you get moving though, I’ll share some trivia with you about April 1st. It was on today’s date, way back in 1856, that London’s newspapers began reporting that gullible people were being sent to witness the washing of the lions at a famous tower in London when the person arrived, there would be throngs of people there entertained by seeing.

[00:40:06] Doug: Who believed the prank? So here’s the question. What still famous landmark in London reportedly housed these lions? I’ll be back right after I go Tell Joe’s mom. It’s Dairy Queen fan appreciation day. Maybe she’ll fall for it and take us out for peanut Buster par. Huh?

[00:40:31] bumper: We’re looking for the answer and correct spelling. Old McDonald had a what? Farm. E-I-E-I-O.

[00:40:43] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m basement prankster and guy who’s foiled again, Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug. So I told Joe’s mom that it was Dairy Queen fan appreciation day, so she’d have us all get in the car and check it out, and then hopefully buy us all ice cream once she realized it was a ruse. Well, the good news, she fell for it.

[00:41:04] Doug: The bad news. She left me here at home to wash the dishes for her while she grabs the ice cream. Ugh, that one kind of backfired. So let’s get you the trivia answer. It was on today’s date back in 1856 that people started gathering for the original April Fools prank, the washing of the lions. Now, the reason people fell for it is that there had been lions, like real live lions at this famous tower for over 600 years, although there hadn’t been any recently.

[00:41:36] Doug: So when people were handed a ticket to check out the lions being washed, they showed up to a massive pack of pranksters ready to laugh at whoever presented a ticket. And now back to the mic. Here comes your ticket to Better Money Habits, Joe and og.

[00:41:57] Joe: Thanks Ebola for hanging out with us today. Og. It’s interesting that her very first pillar is earning income. I remember so many times in financial planning where people that listen to a show like ours, they have buttoned every button that they possibly can. Their budget is nailed down and it truly is an income problem.

[00:42:19] Joe: Like making more money isn’t gonna solve your problems if you haven’t buttoned down your budget. But if you have, maybe earning more money is the key. 

[00:42:30] OG: It sounds very easy to say, right? Just, let’s go. Make more money. Go make more money, Joe, super easy. It’s not easy. You can only get to rice and beans so quickly and, and stay there for so long before you can’t cut anymore.

[00:42:45] OG: If you have good systems and you add income to the good systems. You’ve got a way better likelihood of capturing that excess and putting it to work where it’s supposed to be. 

[00:42:55] Joe: And to be clear, earning more money. ’cause it does sound easy. And I thought that was the key in the early nineties. Yeah, I’ll just earn more money.

[00:43:02] Joe: No, I, I had really crappy money habits and until I solved that problem, earning more money was gonna take me nowhere. But it also was just so frustrating to see good people. Floundering. And then it was funny, I would work with them and I wasn’t a negotiation expert, but I worked with them and we’d role play on how to ask their boss for more money.

[00:43:20] Joe: And man, the next week they’d call back and go, oh my God, I got a raise. I asked my boss for this raise and I got and, and it solves so many problems. ’cause now they already knew how to automatically put that money away. They had systems in place and they were able to solve a lot of their issues and not being able to get what they wanted.

[00:43:37] Joe: It was, it was super powerful. Speaking of powerful, man, I got a powerful headline. 

[00:43:42] headlines: Hello Doling. And now it’s Time Your favor part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin’s headlines. 

[00:43:49] Joe: Today’s headline comes to us from Forbes. Well, here’s a number that I found startling guys, as us debt passes $39 trillion.

[00:44:00] Joe: Americans are paying 900 billion. Dollars in interest annually. Og, we are up to $900 billion of debt. That’s a big number. 

[00:44:11] OG: $900 billion. Uh, yeah, sure. Seems like a lot. 

[00:44:16] Joe: Well, and it’s interesting because, you know, over time on this show, we’ve said get outta debt. It turns out that we’re, we’re doing this wrong because clearly some people are crushing it.

[00:44:28] Joe: I mean, I think about Americans paying $900 billion a year in interest. That’s a big fat number that makes me think if you’re not paying any interest, are you, are you really even trying? 

[00:44:40] OG: It’s just a function of society, right? At the end of the day, how can you get ahead if you don’t have some leverage in your life?

[00:44:48] OG: The reality is, is you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta have a nice vehicle. ’cause people aren’t gonna do business with people that have crappy cars. You know, you need to be networking in the right neighborhood, so you gotta be in the right house. So if that means you gotta spend a little bit of extra and. Maybe only 5% down instead of 10% down.

[00:45:06] OG: That’s better because the social value of being around other people that are just like you is way more valuable. 

[00:45:14] Joe: Well, and we’ve talked about conserve your cash for other stuff, right? I mean, clearly if cash is king, we want that cash deployable at a later date. 

[00:45:23] Doug: Yeah. Now you’re in the nicer neighborhood driving the cars.

[00:45:25] Doug: Those neighbors have expectations that you’re gonna be out eating at a fairly decent restaurant like on a Tuesday or a or a Thursday, and you can’t say no to that. I mean, that’s like, this is all, you’re just building social capital, which leads to bigger, better jobs. Yeah. Opportunities. It’s 

[00:45:42] OG: opportunity.

[00:45:43] Doug: Like it’s just an, it’s a, it’s another form of investment and I, I don’t think we 

[00:45:46] OG: Country club, 

[00:45:47] Doug: yeah. I don’t think we give that enough credence here on the show. 

[00:45:50] OG: How do you get an invite to the good club in town if you’re not in the neighborhood with the people And the way that you do business with people at the club is by being at the club.

[00:46:00] OG: You know what I mean? So like what? Tennis, golf, whatever. You need to be around. I mean, it sounds really trite to say, but you gotta buy access. 

[00:46:08] Doug: That’s not trite. That’s just the way the world works. 

[00:46:11] OG: Yeah. You’re buying access. I mean, I mean, another perfect example, schools, right? I guess there are people out there who can go to a state school and you know, whatever.

[00:46:22] OG: That’s totally fine. But if you really want to, you know, if you just look at like how your career can progress, private school is clearly the, the solution, even if it causes you to have a little bit of student loan debt. 

[00:46:33] Joe: And we don’t mean to be offensive to people that went to public in-state universities or a two year college, or that didn’t even attend college.

[00:46:41] OG: Yeah. The reality is, is like you have a different path and it’s gonna be a lot harder. 

[00:46:45] Joe: Yeah. It is gonna be the struggle bus, especially, I mean, when we’re looking at $900 billion of debt that Americans have been able to pile up. And in a lot of cases, you know, when we’ve surveyed the Stacking Benjamins audience, we haven’t done a lot of it.

[00:47:00] Joe: Like, I feel like we’re a little bit behind this curve. I mean, I even look at og, the IRS in this piece from Forbes. Listen to this. 39% of every tax dollar that you put away, that that goes toward interest. I mean it, yeah, it makes me feel like if it’s 39 cents of every dollar going to pay interest on former debt, it’s like Uncle Sam’s basically running this giant rewards program.

[00:47:27] OG: Well, and there’s some synergy there too, right? So if you like, look at when you’re applying for a mortgage, what does the bank say? You should have? They recommend that you have 36%. Of your household income for debt payments. And that’s really scientifically based on, you know, obviously it’s using some government data like you’re talking about, but it’s also, that is the amount that balances out like your need for the future.

[00:47:54] OG: But also, you know, consumption today and then looking at it from the perspective of like, how do you, how do you really optimize all of the dollars 

[00:48:03] Doug: Yeah. 

[00:48:04] OG: That you have. And if you get to that 35, 30 6% number, like the bank suggests if you go in for a mortgage and you go, Hey, I make a hundred thousand dollars a year, right?

[00:48:13] OG: The bank’s gonna say, all of your debt should equal 36,000. Like, that’s the goal. I mean, some banks, some of the more forward thinking ones go up to 42%. So they’ll say, Hey, all of your debt, you know, maybe your house is 36 KA year, but then you’ve got a $6,000 car payment, $500 a month, totally reasonable. So now you’re at 42.

[00:48:32] OG: That’s, that’s really what the banking people have identified as really the. The most optimal number. 

[00:48:37] Joe: We talk a lot about using mathematics on this show, and I think this is where the math becomes important to really optimize Doug. 

[00:48:43] Doug: Right? Well, two things. One, when you’re going for a mortgage, you’re gonna hear an acronym used called DTI.

[00:48:49] Doug: That’s what OG was just talking about. Debt to income. Yeah. So I just, you know, want you guys to all be prepared when you apply for a mortgage. It’ll ask about your DTI and like OG said, you want that really between 36 and 42. And a great analogy for that. Um, and I worked in the mortgage industry for a little while and we would use this frequently with people who were applying for loans.

[00:49:10] Doug: Is, you know, on a, on a sports car, on a really high performance sports car, they say the engine is the most efficient. You’re getting the most power to weight ratio out of that vehicle when the tachometer is at red line. Like you wanna Yeah, it’s like right before, right before it, like probably 8,000 RPM, you know, stick with the analogy.

[00:49:31] Doug: You just want it maxed right at the edge. 

[00:49:32] OG: Yeah. 

[00:49:33] Doug: That’s kinda what they’re looking for is, is the optimal financial situation. 

[00:49:37] OG: Yeah. That’s the gas, that’s the right combustion. Yeah. You know, all this stuff. 

[00:49:40] Joe: I’m actually finding it a little humorous and pretty amazing that, uh, Doug, who normally plays the part of the every man on the show and Wednesday’s our day for mentors like Doug’s really stepping up to the mic on this one.

[00:49:52] Joe: Well, we’re in my 

[00:49:52] Doug: wheelhouse now. 

[00:49:53] Joe: Yeah. 

[00:49:54] Doug: Yeah. 

[00:49:54] Joe: We talked on Monday about you don’t wanna be emotional about your investing plan. You should work through those emotions and instead use systems. We’re gonna do the same thing here on Wednesday. Not only do we hear on Wednesday from the most brilliant mentors, people like Bola, or last week our stock market, maestros, Claire and Lee.

[00:50:15] Joe: But today we are rolling out your systematic debt building plan. If you feel behind on this, I don’t think there’s anything to worry about. I think we can get you started in the right way. And the first thing, OG, that we identified as we were building this, I think it’s important to start small, but not too small, like carry a balance on your credit card.

[00:50:37] Joe: And second, ignore the 0% offers because those are for amateurs, 

[00:50:42] OG: and that’s kind of 1 0 1 stuff. As you’re looking at more eso, is esoteric the right word here, Doug? Yeah, I’m trying to, 

[00:50:49] Doug: yeah, I think, I think it might be. Yeah, 

[00:50:50] OG: it might be. Let me finish it and then you can come back and and judge Sure. More. Uh, maybe advanced.

[00:50:54] OG: Maybe that’s a better way. It’s like 2 0 1 is what I’m thinking of here. Mm-hmm. Strategies. You look at your brokerage account, this is a perfect example. So let’s say that you got a brokerage account, it’s got a hundred K in it, and we know for a fact that you know over long periods of time, that’s gonna grow at 10% a year, right?

[00:51:08] OG: That’s the number that we put in. Statistically, if you invest $200,000, you’re gonna have a better return than the guy that has a hundred. Everybody understands that completely. If I have 200,000 in my account and Joe has a hundred thousand in his, we run it out for the next 30 years, I’m gonna have more money.

[00:51:25] OG: So the question is, how do you get that other a hundred? Well, the great news is that Schwab or Fidelity or whoever will give that a hundred thousand to you as a loan. Basically it’s called margin, and you can refinance this different ways, but it’s a fantastic way to basically double your market exposure.

[00:51:41] OG: There’s a little interest, which is totally fine, but, but you already know on the backend, Hey, 200 K is better than a hundred. So, you know, people ask me a lot. They like, what? What are the 1% do? This is it? This is one of those things. Yeah. Other people’s money. OPM. 

[00:51:56] Doug: Yeah. I was gonna bring that up because that’s a phrase that I remember being really confused about as I was just getting acquainted with.

[00:52:02] Doug: Personal finance and I, I, it, it used to sound like such a bad thing. Like that doesn’t sound nice to be, to use other people’s money. Now I get it a hundred percent. Like that’s the 

[00:52:12] Joe: goal. That’s the goal. 

[00:52:13] Doug: Use as much other people’s money as possible. Yeah. Don’t use yours. 

[00:52:15] OG: Yeah. Use other people’s. 

[00:52:16] Joe: Well, and I think you bring up another important point, which is you don’t just want credit card debt because again, more rookie stuff there, og Well, 

[00:52:24] OG: it’s concentrated risk.

[00:52:25] Joe: You don’t that Absolutely. You need to stay diversified. So not just credit cards, but car loans, personal loans. Mm-hmm. And then when you’re getting emotional, don’t get emotional use. Buy now, pay later so that you can extend the feelings over a longer period of time. 

[00:52:42] OG: Well, here’s the problem though, with buy now, pay later is most of that stuff doesn’t actually come with interest.

[00:52:47] OG: It’s like layaway. So it’s like, it gives you the feeling of having debt but not actually, you know, having to pay for it, you know? So it’s like. I’ll give you a great example. I bought a, a bike trainer thing for, you know, this race we talked about that I’m doing, and it was 600 bucks, and it said, okay, you can do, you can pay $600 right now, of course, charge that minimum payment.

[00:53:10] OG: Then you’ve got interest, which is good. We’ve talked about, or you could do the buy now, pay later, and it’s $200 a month for three months. Well, that’s, that’s just layaway. That’s not interest at all. That’s defeating the purpose. So be careful with buy now, pay later, because it doesn’t really function the way that you think it does.

[00:53:27] Joe: Step three on our list is you gotta grab those premium interest rates. I mean, we talk, you hear the word upgrade a ton in our economy, and I think this is the place where you need to focus on premium because low interest rates embarrassing. Store cards, 29%, bam. Cash advances, bam. Late fees, like those are bonus multipliers.

[00:53:52] Joe: Bam. 

[00:53:53] OG: Well, you talked about a credit card rewards program. You know that the government is running basically, and I know that was a little tongue in cheek. Look at how many points you can get from. Let’s say a cash advance. It’s like you could go charge something, which is fine if you’ve gotta use cash.

[00:54:10] OG: Don’t use cash from your bank account. You don’t get any points for that. Go to the bank, give them your Amex card premium product. See, see what I did? There they go. Oh, front of the line for this guy. But instead of taking money out of your bank, so cash flow, right? Cash is king, your cash is king. You use other people’s money.

[00:54:29] OG: There’s Doug’s favorite new quote. Use Amex and you go, Hey, I need cash for this thing. Don’t take it on my bank account. Use, use this credit card. You get points, you get to pay interest. You’re moving up the ladder in terms of like how Amex 

[00:54:44] Doug: Well, yeah, I was gonna say 

[00:54:45] OG: it’s a just like a triple win. 

[00:54:47] Doug: Don’t under represent the value.

[00:54:49] Doug: Again, back to social capital of what other people think when you pull that silver or black card outta your wallet. Oh yeah, no. Like how Well, 

[00:54:56] Joe: and I, how badass is that? I think that’s a great place to wrap this up, guys, because Yeah, we open with this. You’re not just missing out financially, you’re missing out socially.

[00:55:06] Joe: If you’re not helping the country build this stack of debt, I mean, you’re at a party. Everybody’s talking about, my interest is at 24 99, so is yours. I just rolled my debt into a heloc. How many times have you heard about that? Yeah. So have you people, I was bragging about those great things they did. Now you can say, my minimum payment’s bigger than my rent.

[00:55:27] Joe: And you’re standing there. I mean like imagine if you don’t do this. You’re standing there like, well, I pay my balance in full. 

[00:55:32] OG: Like a chump. 

[00:55:33] Doug: What a doofus. 

[00:55:34] Joe: Yeah. I mean that person gets escorted outta the party. I feel like debt is like concert tickets. Like if you didn’t overpay, we’re even there. You know what I mean?

[00:55:44] Joe: Yeah. Uh, I’ll link to this piece about how the US is building debt in u can too. On our show notes at Stack. It doesn’t say in the piece. U can too. I think that’s what we were able to successfully add to it. Just 

[00:55:56] Doug: that’s the value we’re here to add. 

[00:55:58] Joe: Yeah. We, we connect the dots. Doug, that’s gonna pretty much do it for today.

[00:56:02] Joe: I know if you’re gonna be in the Texarkana area coming up, uh, 

[00:56:07] OG: why? Oh. 

[00:56:08] Doug: Run away. Run away 

[00:56:11] Joe: next week. 

[00:56:12] OG: Keep driving. 

[00:56:13] Joe: The Paula Pant will be here for a live Stacking Benjamins recording. That’s going to be Tuesday night. What’s our date, Doug? 

[00:56:21] Doug: Uh, April 7th at Texas a and m trk. 

[00:56:26] Joe: It is on the campus there. 

[00:56:28] Doug: Tuesday, April 7th.

[00:56:30] Joe: It’s gonna be alive. Special joint Stacking, Benjamins Stacking, uh, I was gonna say Stacking, afford anything. We’re taking over Paula joint episode. Live in front of the students and, uh, community here in Texarkana. First time we’ve ever done a live show in Texarkana. So hope you can come join us. It’s Tuesday night.

[00:56:50] Joe: Stacking Benjamins dot com slash meetup. 

[00:56:53] Doug: Joe, I wanna do a quick rundown of all the other meetups ’cause there’s so much happening in April. Don’t forget Boston, April 8th, that Hannah’s Brewing, Seattle. That’s at 6:00 PM Seattle, April 9th, 5:00 PM at the Berlin or Pub Southern Minnesota. Mankato, uh, April 22nd, six 30 at the Maverick Innovation Gateway.

[00:57:12] Doug: We’ve also got meetups we know are happening in, uh, the Twin Cities on April 29th. We’re gonna get you a time and location before that happens, uh, and, and you can periodically check Stacking Benjamins dot com slash meetup. We’ll have details there. And also Tucson, our new group in Tucson. Be sure to join them on our Facebook, on their, their Facebook page.

[00:57:35] Doug: On our Facebook. We own Facebook now, apparently, but they’re having a meetup on April 15th. Also, uh, we know the date. We don’t have location and time yet, but do the same thing there. Check Stacking Benjamins dot com slash meetup. For the Tucson and Twin Cities details, but lots, lots going on in April.

[00:57:54] Joe: Super exciting to see stackers getting together across the country. And as I’ve gone to many of these events, man, it’s always just great to hang out with like-minded people. Just absolutely great stack of Benjamins dot com slash bad. All right, last but not least, if, uh, you are wondering how your money looks versus some of the concepts that we talked about today and Bola talked about today and other of our amazing mentors that we have on every Wednesday.

[00:58:20] Joe: Talk about some of the smartest people in the world when it comes to either making more money, having a better spending plan, as Bola talked about today, the pillars to becoming a millionaire, whatever it might be. If you are wondering, how am I doing? Well, OG and his team have created a scorecard you can take for free their scorecard assessment.

[00:58:41] Joe: It’s stacky Benjamins dot com slash scorecard gets you there and, uh. You can see how you’re doing with your money. And it’s very interesting, Doug, you took it and it turns out that a reboot, uh, I think was what OG said is in order. 

[00:58:53] Doug: Yeah, it was actually helpful, I think for og. I was an early beta tester and it just sort of froze up.

[00:59:00] Doug: It was weird at the end, it just sort of locked up and said that the calculation didn’t, I don’t know. I mean, he 

[00:59:06] Joe: Machinery. 

[00:59:07] Doug: Yeah. 

[00:59:07] Joe: It’s always good to have testers ahead of time that can possibly 

[00:59:11] Doug: break it. Yeah, and you need edge cases and I’m, I’m usually an edge case for everybody’s test of something and in this case, turns out I was at the lower end of that edge.

[00:59:20] Joe: And as we’ve always heard, there’s one thing Doug’s good at. It’s edging. Alright, that’s gonna do it for today, Doug. You got it from here, man. What should we have learned on today’s show? 

[00:59:29] Doug: Well, Joe first take some advice from Bolus Sabi from Clever Girl Finance to become a millionaire. You don’t need a crazy idea or a lottery ticket.

[00:59:38] Doug: You build a strong foundation and work your plan. You’ve got this, whether you’re a clever girl or clever boy. Second leverage. Yeah, April Fool stackers. Ha ha. We got you so bad. You’re burned. Yeah. Don’t, don’t do any of the stuff we said. But the big lesson turns out Joe’s mom got the last April Fools laugh.

[01:00:04] Doug: She just returned with zero. Exactly. Zero peanut buster parfaits. But, uh, you know, she was packing a mean whiskey breath and a few of these really cool drink coasters from fat Jacks. So, you know, I’m, I guess she won this round. Thanks to Bola Sabi for joining us today. You’ll find Ebola’s new book, clever Girl Millionaire Out yesterday, yesterday’s just out hot off the presses.

[01:00:31] Doug: Wherever books are sold. We’ll also include links in our show notes at Stacking Benjamins dot com. This show is the Property of SP podcast, LLC, copyright 2026, and is created by Joe Saul-Sehy. You’ll find out about our awesome team at Stacking Benjamins dot com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots.

[01:00:55] Doug: Come say hello and oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s Mom’s neighbor, Doug, and we’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[01:01:25] OG: Give them your Amex card premium product. See? See what I did? There they go. Oh, front of the line for this guy. And

[01:01:38] OG: Right, I’ll get it. We get it. We’re rocket. This. 

[01:01:42] Doug: Yeah, 

[01:01:42] OG: because we all live it. It’s so easy. 

[01:01:47] Joe: I just rolled my debt into a heloc. How many times have you heard about that? So have you. My minimum pay.

[01:01:56] Joe: I’m like, I can’t do it. My minimum payment’s bigger than my rent.

[01:02:06] Joe: 3, 3, 2, 1.

[01:02:13] Joe: Uh. Everybody has these wild stories about the great things. People are always bragging about those great things. They did it. I think I’m gonna end on that. I was gonna say something about the fact that it’s April Fool’s Day and we’re not fooling, but I’m gonna leave that alone. That is awesome.