Conquering Investment Fears and Risks (SB1668)

Feeling anxious about where your money’s going? You’re not alone—and you’re not without a plan. In today’s episode, Joe is joined by OG, Mom’s neighbor Doug, and two sharp minds from the personal finance world: Paula Pant from Afford Anything and Dr. Jordan Grumet from Earn and Invest. Together, they take a deep dive into the many faces of investment risk, from the obvious to the overlooked.

Because when it comes to your financial future, the real danger isn’t just volatility—it’s misunderstanding the terrain.

Whether you’re dipping a toe into international markets, piling into real estate, or wondering if your long-term plan can survive a little inflation, this episode will help you better understand the risks that matter—and avoid the ones that don’t.

💡 What’s inside:

• Why market risk feels scary—but often isn’t the real danger
• How liquidity and time horizon risks can quietly erode your strategy
• The danger of overconcentration (ahem, putting all your eggs in one ETF)
• What inflation, reinvestment, and credit risk mean for your future
• How to navigate longevity and foreign investment risks without flinching

And of course, the basement wouldn’t be the basement without a few detours—including a surprise milkshake debate and Doug’s trivia segment that takes a sharp left into apple peels, Johnny Appleseed, and questionable coalition logic.

If you’re ready to face the real dangers of investing—and stop fearing the ones that don’t deserve your attention—this episode’s got you covered.

Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.StackingBenjamins.com/201

Enjoy!

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Our Topic: Our thoughts on different types of risks

The 8 Main Types of Investment Risk Explained (e Investing for Beginners)

During our conversation, you’ll hear us mention:

• Market risk is the most talked about
• Language matters
• Reframing investing as ownership
• Fear of doing nothing
• Perceived safety in real estate
• Volatility vs. actual risk
• Setting proper expectations
• Liquidity risk
• Over-optimization leads to liquidity traps
• Too much cash is a hidden risk
• Line-in-the-sand method
• Accumulation vs. decumulation
• Concentration risk is common for beginners
• Concentration at work
• Importance of an exit strategy
• Credit risk
• Depositor risk in crypto
• Reinvestment risk
• Inflation risk
• Horizon risk
• Longevity risk
• Foreign investment risk
• Portfolio design starts with language
• Diversification is key
• The real risk is misalignment

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Our Contributors

A big thanks to our contributors! You can check out more links for our guests below.

Doc G

Another thanks to Doc G for joining our contributors this week! Hear more from Doc G on his show, Earn & Invest podcast at Earn & Invest on Apple Podcasts.

Check out his latest book The Purpose Code: How to unlock meaning, maximize happiness, and leave a lasting legacy.

Paula Pant

Check Out Paula’s site and amazing podcast: AffordAnything.com 

Follow Paula on Twitter: @AffordAnything

OG

For more on OG and his firm’s page, click here.

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Doug’s Game Show Trivia

• How long in feet, is the longest apple peel ever recorded?

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Join Us on Monday!

Tune in on Monday when we’re doing a deep-dive case analysis into the strategic genius of perhaps the greatest businessperson of our time…Taylor Swift.

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Miss our last show? Check it out here: How To Smooth Out Your Investment Ride …or not (SB1668) » The Stacking Benjamins Show.

Written by: Kevin Bailey

Episode transcript

STACK 04-11 Fear and Money -steve

[00:00:00] Doug: What a filthy job could be worse. How? Could be rainy.

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters. It’s the Stacking Benjamin Show.

I am Joe’s mom’s neighbor. Duggan, how about we talk about fear? What should you fear and not fear when it comes to investing? We’ll dive into fighting fear on today’s show, but of course we already know you don’t need to fear that. I’ll forget your favorite part of the show. I mean, the fans go so crazy for it.

They never let me forget to deliver my amazing trivia question. And now a guy who’s always afraid Andy’s ice cream shop might run out of vanilla. It’s Joe Sa Sea. Hi. 

[00:01:03] Joe: That would be horrifying. In fact, I have nightmares about that. Hey everybody. Welcome to the guy that keeps Andy some business. Joe Saul Sea High, average Joe Money on Twitter.

I literally went to Andy’s once a few weeks ago and I’m walking up to the window and the woman slides the window open and she goes, Texas, two step. And I go, how do you know? She’s like, that’s what you always get. And I realized the person at Andy’s knows me, which I don’t know if that’s good or bad. What is good?

It’s a great thing. You’re 

[00:01:28] Doug: lactose intolerant. How the hell are you a regular at the ice cream shop? 

[00:01:33] Joe: It’s custard. I just love to laugh afterwards. Andy’s 

[00:01:35] OG: just custard anyway. 

[00:01:36] Joe: It’s like 45 minutes. That keeps giving after. Yeah. And it is custard. 

[00:01:40] OG: Yeah. 

[00:01:41] Joe: But the guy that’s not custard, he’s amazing. Sitting across from me at the card table, Mr.

OGs here. How are you buddy? 

[00:01:47] OG: Custards. Okay. There’s a great, uh, milkshake place that I want to try. I saw it on like Shark Tank or the Profit years ago. And I, and I requested information about the franchise ’cause I was like, this is gonna be a banger hit. And I just saw one open Oh. Kind where Nebraska Furniture Mart is.

No, they rejected me. They’re like, you’re way too awesome for us. So incredible. Um, I was like, all right, I mean whatever. But, um, I’m excited about that. So I might do that today. I’ve got a little free time after this and, uh, not doing anything tomorrow. So we’ll see. 

[00:02:22] Joe: Perfect. Yeah, perfect time for milk. 

[00:02:25] OG: You know that my milkshake brings all the boys, 

[00:02:31] Joe: and I love that.

Uh, love that Jim Gaffigan bit about milkshakes. He’s like, I’m pretty sure I’m lactose intolerant because I’ve had three milkshakes that I feel like. Exactly. Just, and speaking of amazing pull pants from four 80 Thing is here. How are you? 

[00:02:46] Paula: I am fantastic. I don’t think I’ve had a milkshake in years. Oh, come on.

Yeah. Well, I mean, with the light, I’ve had ice cream and I’ve had milk. I’ve just never thought to combine them. 

[00:02:56] OG: Delicious. It’s a guy on YouTube that does it. He shows you how to do it. Like an actual milkshake. Like milkshake. 

[00:03:01] Paula: Ooh. Like, like, oh yeah. 

[00:03:03] OG: Like an old school. You actually 

[00:03:04] Paula: physically like shake it 

[00:03:05] Joe: milkshake.

Yes. What Paula doesn’t realize is you could do Bailey’s in your milkshake. Paula? 

[00:03:11] OG: Mm. No. Did Maker’s Mark at a golf tournament one time? That was filthy. Good. 

[00:03:18] Joe: Maker’s Mark in a milkshake. 

[00:03:20] OG: Oh my God. It was like the best of all things combined. And it was a hot summer day, halfway through the golf tournament.

Oh man. And by about like whole, by about hole number 13, it was like you’re on your third one going, I think I’m lactose intolerant and also drunk. I’ve had three of these and they poured ’em in like big styrofoam containers. You’re like, that’s a lot of ice cream, but it’s also a lot of booze. It’s like 5,000 calories of ice cream and seven shots of Maker’s Mark.

You know, 

[00:03:49] Joe: you wake up the next morning, you have diabetes and a seven step program, 12 step program, 

[00:03:54] OG: seven 12, however many, somewhere in there. Yeah. 

[00:03:57] Paula: Can I just say Paulette Perha, a former writer of the Stacking Benjamin Show is in the other room and just texted me. She can obviously overhear us. She just texted me.

24 absolute best milkshakes in New York City. 

[00:04:10] Joe: Oh, you know where you’re going? As soon as we’re done recording. Paula there go. Dinner is surf Paula. You’re headed out. It’s time to, uh, to explore. And the gentleman that explores deeper conversations on the internet, he not only is the host of Earn and Invest, our Brother Show, but also is uh, the guy behind the Purpose Code.

Doc G’s 

[00:04:29] Jordan: Back. How are you man? I’m good. You know, in high school I spent three or four years working for an ice cream shop, so I made milkshakes every day. In fact, we used to basically eat three or four of ’em. Drink 3, 3, 4 of them. That’s, I gonna say I would eat 

[00:04:43] Joe: away all the product. 

[00:04:44] Jordan: Yeah. But that was back in the day when I could like take in a few thousand calories and it, there was nothing like I would, I know, you know, it was no big deal.

That wouldn’t work nowadays. Now 

[00:04:52] Joe: Jordan, I look at a milkshake and I gained 10 pounds. I’m like, oh man, Paul, 

[00:04:57] Paula: Paula, 

[00:04:57] Joe: you’ve got more from Paulette. 

[00:04:59] Paula: Oh yeah. So I was just looking through this list. So there’s a toasted marshmallow shake. That’s available at Bros Burgers. There’s, 

[00:05:06] Joe: I’m with the look on Doug’s face here.

[00:05:08] Paula: The Burnt honey vanilla shake. Yeah, there’s the Harlem Shake. I don’t know what’s 

[00:05:12] Jordan: in that. Nothing beats Portillos here in Chicago. They do like the chocolate cake shake, so they have one of the best chocolate cakes ever, like most moist, wonderful chocolate cake. And they take a full piece of cake and put it into your shake.

It’s, it’s actually known throughout the world. I’m gonna go get two. That’s it. 

[00:05:30] Joe: Ooh, Doug doesn’t wanna know God. Let’s move along folks. 

[00:05:34] Jordan: It’s 

[00:05:34] Joe: like, and 

[00:05:34] Jordan: rolling. We 

[00:05:34] Joe: got, we got a show to do 

[00:05:36] Jordan: here. Come on. 

[00:05:36] Joe: No one, no one 

[00:05:37] Jordan: cares about your mother-in-law and her butter peon. 

[00:05:40] Doug: When I’m the voice of reason for this podcast, we’ve gone off the rails.

[00:05:46] Joe: Well, there is a risk that we go on and on too long. Speaking of risk, how about that? We’re gonna talk about different types of risk according to the COP board and others. I. What risks are lurking out there in your portfolio that you might be afraid of, and how do we get around those risks as an investor?

We had a great discussion on Wednesday. OG was adamant that there’s a lot to fear when it comes to investing, and I was like, no, all we gotta do is work around it, not how 

[00:06:09] OG: that went down 

[00:06:10] Joe: today. That’s exactly what we’re going to do on the show. But before we get to that, we have a couple sponsors that make sure that this is all free and you get all this shake discussion with no shakedown for money.

So how about that, huh? 

[00:06:24] PANAMA: Yeah, 

[00:06:25] Joe: you’re welcome. We’re gonna hear from them and then we’re stirring the milkshake on risk. Let’s do it.

All right, let’s talk about these different types of risks. What I’d like to do is I’m gonna bring up one of the types of risks that I have. I’ve got nine different ones on this, uh, sheet in front of me, and I just want to talk about a, the risk, what people worry about with this risk, and then how do we put together a better portfolio that kind of mitigates that risk.

All right. So Doc, let’s start with you. Let’s talk about one that I think is probably the obvious one on this list. It’s market risk. Market risk. This is the one, you know, people hear. I’m afraid of the stock market, right? 

[00:07:08] Jordan: Yeah. I mean, I hear this all the time. In fact, my mother-in-law, who is from another country, came to the US and was petrified of ever investing her money.

Now, they eventually invested in real estate, but now that she’s older, we talk about taking her excess cash. They sold all their buildings. And putting it into the stock market, and she’s just convinced that she’s gonna put it in and lose it right away. So this is a real fear for people, especially those people who either haven’t been in the stock market before or haven’t studied it.

It’s this idea that the stock market is the place you go to lose everything. 

[00:07:45] Joe: Oh gee. When Doc is talking, I mean, real estate is a market too. The stock market’s a market, but real estate’s just another market by another name. 

[00:07:54] OG: Well, I mean, this is why using language and the words that we, the, the exact words that we use really, really matter.

If you said, I’m gonna go put my money in the stock market, or worse, I’m gonna go play the market, what does that just sound like in terms of, you know, it just sounds Bellagio like a game or Bellagio. Yeah. Or, or gambling or you know, just, it doesn’t sound, if I said I’m gonna invest in the 500 biggest companies in the world.

That feels a lot differently than saying, I’m gonna go play the market. You know, it’s like, what are you doing? I’m gonna head down to the, the, uh, the lotto store and go play the market real quick. You know, that’s a different thing than I’m gonna be a part owner in one of the, you know, in some of the 500 biggest companies in the world, 

[00:08:42] Jordan: those 

[00:08:42] OG: don’t 

[00:08:43] Jordan: go bad.

Those are easy. Yeah. And I think that, you know, the interesting thing, and this is the conversation I have with my mother-in-law all the time, is people don’t realize actually the risk of not doing anything, right. So she’s like, well, my money’s in a bank account. It’s safe there. So she’s 82 years old, so she’s got an argument.

So it says to people 

[00:08:58] OG: at First Republic, 

[00:09:00] Jordan: she’s 82 years old, so she has an argument there, but you know, her family members have lived into the hundreds and so this money might have to last for a while. And so, yeah, I think a lot of it is the languages you’re talking about. 

[00:09:11] Joe: Well, back on the specific words that OG used, Paula.

You know, play the stock market. You don’t hear anybody say, play the real estate market. And his point, if we’re talking about the 500 biggest companies in America, is, is it because we don’t take the time to realize what’s behind the quote stock market where real estate, I can see this piece of real estate.

I know what it is. I know it’s there. So when I think about Coca-Cola, I don’t think about playing the stock market. Mm-hmm. But I think 

[00:09:37] Paula: about real estate. I see the property, right? There’s a couple of things going on. One is, to your point, Joe, with real estate, it’s tangible, it’s visceral. You can see it, you can touch it.

You, you could lick the walls, you can taste it. Mm. There’s some milkshake that keeps 

[00:09:53] OG: giving lead paint so delicious. 

[00:09:55] Paula: So it, it engages the five senses in a way that a piece of paper or these days, some pixels on a screen, don’t engage the senses in that same way. And so I think there is that psychological component in which real estate feels more real because of its tangibility.

I think a lot of people to that matter also enjoy gold for exactly the same reason. You know, you hear about more people interested in gold versus, say, cattle because unless you live in, uh, some very specific places, you, you can’t put cattle in in your own property. Whereas you can put gold on your own property.

[00:10:31] Joe: Doug’s like, dare me, dare me. I’ll put cattle in my property. 

[00:10:36] Paula: But I agree with the work choice is important because let’s take it a step further. It’s not just I’ll invest in the 500 biggest companies. It’s I’m going to become a part owner. 

[00:10:45] Joe: Owner. 

[00:10:46] Paula: Yeah. I’m going to become a part owner of the 500 biggest companies in the world.

[00:10:51] Joe: Well, and that’s exactly where I want go next, Paul, let’s stick with you. Is that step one to getting around your fear of this risk of the stock market is realize I dig a little deeper and I own this company. 

[00:11:04] Paula: I dunno if it’s step one in the sense of a linear progression, but I think it’s one piece of the puzzle.

Because I think another big component of it is, you know, this goes back to doctor, you said your mother-in-law came from another country in many countries around the world that. Ownership is something that can, depending on the laws of the country in which you reside, is something that’s a little bit easier to take from you.

Now, that’s also true with real estate. Like real estate can be, can be seized by the government. But in a lot of places where currency gets rapidly devalued or where assets get seized, I think there’s a little bit of hesitation or a lot of hesitation that’s based around that. That’s based around the not knowing just how secure your ownership of this asset is.

And so I think another piece of that puzzle is understanding the laws of the United States in terms of under what conditions can these shares get seized from me. Bye bye. 

[00:12:06] Joe: I had, I had 50 jokes. I’m sorry.

On, I’m just thinking about on stack, you, Benjamin saying don’t afford anything. Last week we talked about accredited investors, right? And it’s just, uh, sir, we’re seizing this from you. You’re too, you’re, you are not fit to own this, own this stuff. Oh, og how do you, you know, ’cause you hear this all the time in your practice, I’m sure playing the stock market.

Use those words. How, how do you begin to build the case that, you know what, we don’t need to play, play the stock market. We need this quote, market risk in, in your portfolio. 

[00:12:38] OG: Well, I think it’s all about the language. It’s like the word risk, right? Like we use the word risk or we’ll say like the risk to my risk tolerance.

Dude, my risk tolerance is zero. I don’t wanna take risk like that sounds ridiculous. You know, when I went skiing with Doug, he’s like, look dude, we could do like a double flip off this. I’m like, I don’t wanna do that with you. That seems very risky, you know? And then he would do it, and then I would just slowly meander down the hill and then he’d be all mad ’cause it took forever to get to get to him.

But does this sound like fan fiction? I mean, he did become a fan boy. Doug is a very good skier. And I am jealous of his because he’s not good at any other sport when I play with him. It’s just so frustrating. Like when you play golf, you’re like, oh, I will totally kick this dude’s ass at anything. And then he skis and you’re like, this doesn’t seem right.

Something is amiss in the universe up here, which one 

[00:13:24] Doug: of these things doesn’t 

[00:13:25] OG: go. But when you say the word risk, you think like chance of loss. And I don’t think that there’s a chance of loss it, you know, and I’m diversify, I’m gonna say like a caveat here if you’re diversified, but I think there’s a big risk of volatility.

I think that people make mistakes with money because their expectations of what they think will happen and what actually happens aren’t aligned correctly. And those, they work both directions of that. If you are looking at your investment account from 2024 and you’re like, well, I heard the s and p was up 28%, I’m only up 21, this is bs.

That means that you weren’t correctly aligned with your, your portfolio was your, your expectations and how you invested your money weren’t the same. Your comparison isn’t correct. Or if the market’s down 20% and you’re like, what the heck? How am I down? I just lost 200,000. That’s another one. By the way, I’ve just lost 200,000.

No, you didn’t, but you know, I’m down 20%. Like, what the heck? You’re gonna make a bad decision because your expectations aren’t aligned with reality. There’s plenty of people out there who the market goes down 20%. They’re like, okay, no matter what it is, stocks or real estate for that matter. Paula, you can speak to this.

Real estate doesn’t go up in a straight line. There’s, there’s periods of time where, where our real estate market or whatever, will be a little soft. And if you don’t expect that, you’re gonna be in a world to hurt. You’re, you know, whether it’s a cash flow issue or something like that. So I think another piece of this, Joe, is expectations with what’s actually going on.

Like, does your money match your expectations? Maybe that’s how I’ll finally, succinctly, succinctly get there. 

[00:14:56] Joe: And I think that’s interesting because then the question is, is what should my expectation be? Which is a great question to ask. It’s a great place to start. What should my expectation actually be with this investment?

We could spend, by the way, the entire hour on this, but I got a lot of different types of risks here because I feel like that’s the one we always concentrate on, right? Market risk is the one thing we all think about, and yet it’s these other ones I think that often bite us in the ass because the second one on my list here, Jordan, is liquidity risk, kind of the opposite, right?

My money is not available when I need my money to be available. This is a problem that I see rear its head over and over and over. 

[00:15:35] Jordan: But that’s a problem of advanced planning. We all realize that if you plan carefully, that shouldn’t be the case, right? If you need that money within the next five years, it should probably not be going into the equities market, right?

So there’s shorter term investment. There are things like treasuries and CDs and ways to HA and money markets, ways to increase your liquidity for money you are going to need for short term. Whereas a lot of times we’re talking about, you know, money that we wanna invest for long term, 10, 15, 20 years. So between having an emergency fund for unexpected things and then planning out like, I’m gonna be buying a house in two years and I’m gonna be buying another car in five years, we can plan out to make sure that we are not taking that money and putting it in into an illiquid investment, but the money we’re saving, for instance, for retirement, we should feel free to put in a little bit of a higher risk, higher return type investment.

In this case, equities. 

[00:16:33] Joe: Then we see Paula, people that are planners, heck, can the afford anything show you? And I take calls and people are, are planners. When OG you and I hear, we take calls from people, we hear people are planners. But Paula, I feel like even when people plan to Doc’s point, I think we kind of get caught up too much.

And the O word. Optimization. Mm. 

[00:16:56] Paula: Right. That’s the 

[00:16:56] Joe: O word. I’ve been doing it wrong.

Doug had maybe a different word, but you know, these uber planners get caught in this liquidity trap. Mm-hmm. Because we’re so busy thinking about. Optimization. 

[00:17:12] Paula: Right, right there there’s certainly people who will so over optimize around expense ratios or around, um, tax advantaged account. The tax advantaged accounts one is actually a big one because of course if you have the option to put money in some type of a tax advantaged account, that seems like it would always be preferable to a taxable account.

Right. If the choice is get a tax benefit versus don’t get a tax benefit, you know, who would say, I’d like to forego the tax benefit. Yeah. Ask. Yeah. Right. But what you get with a taxable account is flexibility. I mean, for a certain cohort of people who can max out all their tax advantaged accounts and then still have money left over for taxable, it’s not an issue.

But for the, a next cohort of people who have to choose between the two, they’re not hitting their max. It can be a really painful trade to say, you know what, here’s money that could otherwise get a tax benefit that I’m going to choose, you know, and I’m going to choose to forego that benefit for the sake of flexibility.

And it’s, that’s, I think particularly. Difficult when that flexibility is just some hypothetical that may never be needed. 

[00:18:15] Joe: Yeah. But then the sad thing is you always end up needing it when you think you won’t. 

[00:18:18] Paula: Yeah. 

[00:18:19] Joe: Like, oh, I’m not gonna need that money. Oops, my bad. Oh gee, this liquidity risk. I think though, in some people’s head they overestimate it.

’cause I don’t know. I remember, I’m sure this still happens. I’m not going to invest this money because I think I’m gonna need it. And so you end up not getting any return on your money because of the fact that you’re like, well, well, well what if something happens? 

[00:18:38] OG: Yeah. I think that it’s less than people who don’t have enough cash.

Right. Like we were talking about on Wednesday, that you can have people that save too much or not enough and, and most of the time it’s the people that don’t save. Not not enough, but it’s the same way with cash. Most people don’t have enough cash. That’s a hard thing to get, you know, a good cash reserve and, and build it up.

Fewer people have too much. But the interesting thing about cash that we’ve experienced in my career is that. Once you kind of get a taste of it, it feels really good. Like it’s really tasty. You mean just having some money sitting idle? Well, when you have 10,000, you go, gosh, you know, ten’s great. I feel okay.

But 2020 would, oh, I’d be so comfortable. And then you get a little taste of 20 and you’re like, twenty’s nice, but I wonder what 40 would be like. And then you get 40 and 40 is even more comfy than 20 was, and you kind of dream about 70, but that’s crazy. And then 70 comes and goes and all of a sudden you just have this like ongoing thing and people who are going through this go, yeah, eventually I’ll stop.

It’s like, okay, sure. It’s like Joe at Andy’s, it’s not gonna happen. There is no stopping once you’re there. So you have to draw a line in the sand. Eventually it’s too much. And the reasonable place to stop is at. If you’ve got an addiction to cash around two years, if you’re starting to think in your brain like, well, I probably need to set this, you know, in 2027, I might be going on that trip, so I should probably, I, I’m gonna get a car in 2030, so I probably should have that money set aside.

Paula’s laughing, is this you, Paula? Do you have an addiction to cash? But 

[00:20:15] Paula: I can see it like, well, because especially when you, when you form these buckets Yeah. You know, where you’re saving different buckets for different, very specific goals. It’s like, well, I’m gonna get a teeth cleaning. 

[00:20:26] OG: Exactly. Yeah. Yes.

You can really get, you can get super granular or you can get super future focused and be like, well, I know I’m gonna need a car in 2037, so shouldn’t that be in cash? It’s like. Well, I mean, no, you, you’ve got a while to go. You know that money should be invested. So I’m a big fan of having a line in the sand and, and you know, and this is for people that have built the emergency fund.

You’ve got the three months, you’ve got the six months, maybe you’ve got a year. Now you’re starting to kind of drift into like just, I’m piling up cash for no reason. Draw a line in the sand and go, look, I’ve got 200 grand in cash. That’s it. Like everything above 200 has to be invested, hence forth, forevermore, until you start digging into that two.

Oh, now it convinced me that you need 200. Dig into the 200. 

[00:21:08] Jordan: Is this really an issue when you’re in accumulation though? ’cause I feel like ly your income, I feel like your income is a high driver of liquidity, or can be, especially for people who have enough money to be saving up for 200, 300. My worry is when I’m in the decumulation phase, that’s where I could be like, okay, I don’t have any money coming in anymore.

I feel like I need to be cash heavy. But if you’re in accumulation, I think we underestimate. The role of income as a liquidity factor? 

[00:21:35] OG: Well, you’re a hundred percent correct. In my experience with people who are, are spending money from their portfolio, they don’t keep a lot of cash. It’s really weird because it’s the exact opposite.

They’ll spend all the cash they had and then just be like, I’m just gonna get take a little bit out every month for my portfolio versus the alternative. In your mind you’re going, well, I would wanna have lots of cash ’cause I don’t have any income. That’s not my experience in terms of working with working with retirees anyway.

And you’re right, it is a subset of people. This isn’t the vast majority of people coming in, walking in, going, I’ve got all this cash laying around like screw McDuck waiting through. Like what do I do? 

[00:22:08] Joe: This is a problem of the Uber planner, the type of person that listens to this show, 

[00:22:12] OG: right? But it doesn’t have to be 200 grand either.

It could be the person that makes a hundred thousand a year and their emergency fund should be 15 and now it’s 20 and now it’s 22 5 and now it’s 25. It’s like, okay, we got it. You’re good with cash. Stop. Get that money. And I like to think about it like a waterfall of buckets. You know, once that bucket’s full, it just has to overflow into the next bucket.

And if you keep on trying to put a bigger bucket there, you’re never gonna get that overflow into the next bucket, which is your long term, you know, medium term or long term savings. So just draw a line in the sand, go at 25 grand. You know, on the 30th of every month. I’m gonna look in the account. If it’s 26, a thousand’s going long term, if it’s 24, the flip side of that, by the way, is if it’s 24 a thousand’s coming back from long term.

You get to work both sides of it, but the line in the sand really helps. 

[00:22:59] Joe: Jordan, I like the fact that you’ve shone a light on liquidity risk. Really important for people in decumulation phase. Like really important. ’cause if you don’t have enough liquidity in front of you, man, you might be pulling money from volatile assets and you don’t wanna play that game, 

[00:23:11] Jordan: which I think is a real fear.

We’re talking about maybe fears we shouldn’t have. A real fear, right? Is that you hit that sequence of returns risk issue during accumulation, which is what we’re really talking about when we’re, when we’re talking about these things. 

[00:23:23] Joe: Let’s tackle one more. We’ll stick with you. Concentration risk. I think this is a thing that really, doc is much, much more prevalent with new investors.

[00:23:32] Jordan: I mean, we’ve talked about it a lot, you and I as well. And this is on this podcast, like if you wanna hit it outta the park, concentration is good. The problem is you also could go to zero. Most of us wanna be good investors, not great investors, right? We wanna be good investors. We want to diversify broadly so that we just get those market returns because that’s good enough for most of us.

Especially if like we’re in a good job and we’re making good income and we’re really looking at the long term. But the other side of that is if you wanna hit it big, right? That’s speculation. That’s concentrated risk. But some of the most wealthy people out there are the ones who did concentrate the risk, either in a business or in a specific type of asset, and they either were exceedingly smart or got really lucky.

But for the rest of us, I think we have to be looking at broad based within an asset, right? So they’re talking about things like index funds when we’re talking about equities. But also without, especially as we get further and further along, whether that be bonds, uh, whether that’s real estate, uh, whether that’s other types of assets to further diversify, 

[00:24:35] Joe: where do we see Paula, people in your community really stepping it with concentration risk?

[00:24:39] Paula: I think that happens a lot when people are new, because oftentimes when you’re new, you don’t have, you don’t have a whole lot of assets and so it kind of can feel a little bit silly to be diversifying when you just don’t have that much to begin with. There are a few kind of inflection points that will get people to begin investing.

Sometimes it’s, you’re 22, you’ve just graduated college, it’s your first job. That might be the impetus that gets you into a 401k for the first time. But for others it might simply be that you got excited about a particular asset and that excitement drove you to begin investing. And I think we see a lot of this with crypto right now.

So that enthusiasm around crypto, the. Good Part of it is that it’s gotten people interested in generally the world of investments. The bad part is that some subsection of them are people who don’t have many other types of assets. So they’ve got concentration risk entirely in crypto. And that’s, uh, their next diversification is like sports betting.

Oh man. Right. 

[00:25:41] Joe: It’s gotta be hard OG to talk people outta concentration risk when they work for a company. Because you work for a company, you’re proud of your company, you wear the t-shirt every day, you’re like, you know what? I’m gonna invest in my company. ’cause I know my company. I go to work there every day.

I talk to the I, I know the C. The CEO is brilliant. Here we are. Rock and rolling. Why wouldn’t I invest more there? Concentration risk has gotta be hard to talk that person down. 

[00:26:03] OG: Well, I don’t think anybody’s job is to talk anybody down, is to talk about what the dominoes look like in the directions of both good things and not so good things.

So in some cases you can. Diversify future savings and investing outside of your company. Or maybe you can buy some protection, whether it’s like basically insurance on your company’s stock and if it’s gonna go down, you can kind of be okay with that. Now, that’s not available to a lot of people because it’s considered a hedging transaction for companies, but there’s ways to do it.

I think the biggest thing is having a plan going into it. Paula was talking about the person who gets outta college and they started their job and you know, you get the signing bonus or you get the RSUs and you’re like, cool that that’s not the problem. The problem isn’t the RSU transaction, it’s the problem is the RSU transaction that happened in 1997 that you’re still dealing with in 2025 because you’re like, I didn’t know what to do with it then I didn’t know what to do with it the year after or the year after, or any year in between.

And now I’ve been there 30 years and I’m about to retire and oh, by the way, all this money’s in this company and now it’s like you. It’s very difficult to unravel that, especially if it’s just a regular stock transaction. ’cause. Now we see the other end of that, which is it’s gonna cost me 20 cents on the dollar to get out of it with taxes, right?

Capital gains. The biggest thing is when you get a, if you have company stock or you have a company investment program, it’s easy to figure out the strategy to get in. You also need to figure out the strategy of what’s your selling strategy on the way out? Are you gonna sell 10% of it every year no matter what?

And that’s gonna help diversify you. Are you gonna sell, you know, last year’s grants? When you get this year’s grants so that you keep the same waiting? Are you gonna create a spreadsheet and say, okay, no more than, you know, x percent of my net worth is gonna be in, in this one particular company or sector.

There’s no right or wrong way to do it, but the the idea is, is that you wanna, you wanna have, you have the strategy for going in, you also need the strategy for selling on the way out that you can implement to keep it within the plan. 

[00:28:02] Joe: There’s so many reasons we get concentrated either. We like the sector, we like the investment.

Paulo, like you were saying, we, we work for the company og, like, uh, you were just talking about. I mean, so, so many reasons why we get concentrated. We’ve got a few more. After the break, we’re gonna talk about other types of risks. I actually have six more. We’ve gone through three. We’re gonna play the fast game on some of these, but at the halfway point of every Friday show, we have this crazy, amazing competition between our three frequent contributors to the Stacking Benjamin Show.

That is og Paula and Jesse, who is AKA Doc G today. Jordan, you’re on Team. Jesse, you want the good news there or the bad news? 

[00:28:44] Jordan: It’s all bad news. This is trivia. This is me we’re talking about. It’s all bad news. 

[00:28:48] Joe: Well, the bad news, I think, uh, could be reflected in the score. You’re not, you’re not winning.

Doug, what is the score at this juncture? 

[00:28:55] Doug: We’re in a precarious state after last week that there was some controversy over the question and the answer. The contestants started to try to take a takeover of the whole previous segment. They were negotiating points as though they could administer themselves.

Like they could just pick how many points they wanted to win or lose. I had to step in and arbitrate and allowed a half point to be awarded to both Jesse and Paula. And so now OG still in the lead, uh, wearing his all black outfit and holding that sickle like the scepter of death that he is, uh, he is, talk about fear.

He has five points. Jesse has just half of that at two and a half points. Paula are bringing up the rear at one and a half points. 

[00:29:41] Paula: I have a question. When we get to the end of the year as part of, uh, on behalf of the coalition to defeat og, which Jesse and I have formed, am I permitted to donate my points to Jesse?

You are not. 

[00:29:54] Joe: Paula is already presupposing. She’s at last place. Yeah, we are in April and she’s like, yeah, I just 

[00:30:01] Paula: wanna, can’t I get a tax write off for the donation? 

[00:30:03] Jordan: You just need to make OG go first so Paul and I can sandwich your money. Said he always goes first. 

[00:30:08] Joe: OGs got first every time for the last like two and a half years.

Don’t threaten me with a good time. 

[00:30:13] Doug: I caught that inappropriate joke. O you Thank you. Somebody did. At least, 

[00:30:17] Joe: I’m probably glad I talked over it then. Alright, so that’s, I just said something 

[00:30:21] OG: about getting sandwiched and I was. I got all, I got all, all a fluster. 

[00:30:25] Joe: That’s what’s at stake here is, uh, getting that outta your brain.

Can uh, doc g help team Jesse go to three and a half and really close the gap? Can Paula engineer her way into a tie for second place? Ken Oji, pull further ahead. Doug’s got the question. What are we talking about this Friday? Doug?

[00:30:49] Doug: Hey there, stackers. I’m Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug and Spring has sprung, hasn’t it? That means our friends in Canada, the northern states only have three feet of snow left and in Texas. Well, the rains have arrived. One guy who’s associated with Spring is Johnny Appleseed. Well, Johnny was just his stage name when he played drums in his high school metal band.

His real name was John Chapman, and he was an American pioneer nursery man, who knew that was a job I could get in the early 18 hundreds who introduced trees, grown with apple seeds to large parts of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Ontario. Apparently that’s a state now. Heck, now that I think about it, we’re kinda like the Johnny Apple seeds of personal finance, aren’t we?

I mean, we’re spreading financial education and fun, so we’re 48 different countries. You’re welcome. So as a tribute to Spring Financial Literacy and Johnny Appleseed, let’s ask this question. How long in feet is the longest Apple peel ever recorded? I’ll be back right after I go plant the seed. And Joe’s mom’s head that we should have chocolate chip cookies after we’re done 

[00:31:59] Joe: recording.

That’s a good seed. That is a good seed to plant. All right. Og, longest unbroken apple. Uh, peel, uh, peel. 

[00:32:12] OG: So I’m picturing this as somebody started peeling it and they just went, I’m gonna keep doing this. It’s with a knife. Yeah. And they just kept on doing it and went, holy crap. This is a record. Let’s go talk to Guinness.

Let’s go have a Guinness. I mean, 

[00:32:25] Joe: um, 

[00:32:27] OG: okay. So I think 

[00:32:28] Joe: you’d have to have a couple guinnesses in you just to think this would be fun. I know, dude, 

[00:32:33] OG: the judges allow what brand of Apple this was. Uh, uh, an appley apple. Very licious apple crab. Fuji, honey, crisp. Well, it’s all 

[00:32:47] Doug: matters. Whatever the biggest apple is is probably the one they used.

I doubt they used a crab apple like you used to put in your slingshot as a kid. 

[00:32:56] OG: Yeah. Horse apples. We have those in Texas. Oh yeah. You can’t eat ’em though. Yeah, don’t eat those. Those are brutal at juju. All right, so let’s see. The biggest apple in the world ever was probably about that big. That looks to be the diameter.

What’s uh, what’s pie times radius squared. What does that have to do with anything? 

[00:33:18] Paula: Just give a number, 

[00:33:19] Joe: Doug. You wanna reach across the table and choke him for me. 

[00:33:22] Paula: R pi pi r squared pi r squared 

[00:33:25] OG: pi r squared. Pi r square squared. You got it. Um, I’m gonna say that the answer is, uh, I in feet. It is, um, seven and a half feet.

[00:33:36] Joe: Seven and one half feet. Uh, Jordan, you think it’s high or low? 

[00:33:43] Jordan: I think that’s low. I think if you cut it really, really thin. 

[00:33:48] OG: Oh, I didn’t think about that. 

[00:33:50] Jordan: Fuck you could, you could really carry it out. So I’m gonna say, I’m gonna shoot for the moon here. I’m gonna say 20 feet. Give Paula, give Paula 

[00:33:59] Joe: some chances here.

Like 20 feet. Feet, seven and a half, and 20 feet long. Paula, what are you thinking? 

[00:34:07] Paula: Well, so I agree that it’s functionally a question of how thinly can you slice it because dang it, I 

[00:34:14] OG: missed that whole piece of the pie, piece of the apple 

[00:34:20] Paula: making an apples to apples comparison here. The thinner that you can slice it.

The, the longer this could be, but even with the largest apple, I mean, okay, so for those of you watching on YouTube, let’s say the largest Apple was roughly the size of this 28 ounce coffee mug. Look at the 

[00:34:35] Doug: flourish she used. I know. At the 

[00:34:37] Paula: cup. Alright, van and then you imagine, uh, what a, a one millimeter shave right?

All. Well actually you know what, now that I’m saying that out loud, ’cause one millimeter is pretty darn thin. Alright.

Okay, let’s go. 7.51. 

[00:34:59] Jordan: Seven point. So you think that’s a good chance of one of us beating him? Yeah. 

[00:35:02] Doug: So you wanna go in the middle? Between the 7.51 and OGs or Docs 20. Is that what you’re that’s what you’re going for here. 

[00:35:11] OG: Well, since when do we get clarification on answers? I just, this is, everyone’s teamed up against OG now all of a sudden.

I think so, yes. That’s the final 

[00:35:18] Paula: answer. I get it. It’s a, it’s a broad coalition. Right. But by uniting coalition votes, it’s like Parliament 

[00:35:26] Joe: 7.5 for og. 7.51 for Paula DJI at 20 feet. Surprise, surprise. He’s way up higher. Who knew? Uh, dji who often, on a scale of one to 10 will guess a million. So you’re back there.

We’re gonna see though, if maybe this time he’s closest. Who knows? Oh gee, you open at seven and a half feet. The good news is if it’s less than seven and a half feet, you got it. What are you thinking? Pretty, pretty excited about that. No, 

[00:35:53] OG: I was thinking like an Apple peeler and I was thinking, how many times can I make a lap around the apple with a a.

You know, with a apple peeler or, you know, whatever, potato peeler or whatever. Yeah. And I did not take into account the fact that you could make that really, really, really tiny and like a little ribbon, like an artsy way of doing it, like, uh, like a great chef would do or something. And, uh, yeah, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be way more, I think it’s a huge, if I would’ve thought about that, I would’ve picked a big number, like a thousand feet or something.

[00:36:23] Joe: Uh, Paul, how does that make you feel? 

[00:36:26] Paula: I think the real answer is probably actually closer to OGs. So I would say like 10, 10 to 12 feet is probably the real answer. So I’m feeling good with 7.51 as my guess. All right. 

[00:36:37] Joe: Uh, Jordan, how you feeling at 20 feet? 

[00:36:39] Jordan: I’m feeling some, a-hole was cutting, like the smallest little thing you can imagine.

So I’m, I’m thinking 20 feet might even be on the low side. I’m gonna go against. I’m thinking it’s gonna be big. You’re thinking that 

[00:36:53] Joe: AOL helped you 

[00:36:53] Jordan: win. That’s what you’re thinking. I’m always wrong, but I’m feeling better about this one. 

[00:36:58] Joe: Well, let’s see, Doug, is uh, Jordan wrong again? Paula got this one, or does OG Got it With the under.

[00:37:09] Doug: Hey there Stackers. I’m chocolate chip lover and guy who knows? You have to ask five times for what you really want. Joe’s mom’s neighbor, Doug, ah, Johnny Appleseed. While stories persist to this day of Angry Frontier women accusing Johnny Appleseed of spreading his seeds willy-nilly, it turns out no, no, that’s not what happened at all.

Apple Seed was very carefully planted. His nurseries across Ohio, Pennsylvania, and nearby states, wherever husbands couldn’t catch him while he the easy, he wore popper’s clothes. That was by his own choice historian Paul Aaron argues Chapman was actually a successful businessman. He bought many of the parcels of land on which he planted his seeds, and ultimately accumulated about 1200 acres across three states.

Planting seeds creates lots of real estate based wealth for Johnny. So in celebration of Johnny and planting some money seeds. Oh, I see the specula. The, oh yeah, that’s more specific. I get it. Our question was, how long was the longest recorded apple peel in feet? I cannot tell you how disappointed I am in the three guesses that we received today.

I’m gonna be lobbying for new panelists in future Friday episodes. Uh, while I won’t tell you the exact number just yet, this is OGs favorite part. I will tell you that the correct answer is 152 and a half feet more than what Doc g guessed. 164.99 feet, more than what Paula guessed. Yeah, baby. And 165 feet more than what OG guessed.

’cause the correct answer is 172 and a half feet making Doc G our unlikely winner. 

[00:39:02] Jordan: Yeah. I started to realize at the end there was some guy who was just like, you know, 

[00:39:07] Doug: have you people ever seen like a potato peeler and how thin you could make that little string if you did it really pissed. Well, I know when 

[00:39:14] Joe: LG came to that realization, he’s like, no, I would’ve gone way, way, way, way bigger.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I might not 

[00:39:19] OG: have said a thousand, but I, I might’ve got to a hundred. 

[00:39:21] Joe: That’s, what was the number again, Doug? 1 72 0.5. 1 72. That’s a big old peel, if you know what I mean. 

[00:39:28] Doug: And, and how many times were they trying and then they get to like 160 feet and it would break. And they had, they had to go through a whole orchard to get to that final one.

[00:39:38] Joe: And finally they get to 172 and they’re like, enough, I gotta do something else. I gotta appeal a pair or something. 

[00:39:43] Paula: Yeah. 

[00:39:43] Joe: So Doc G gets team, uh, Jesse, the step closer. I’m so happy for a coalition victory. If you gift your points, you guys are tied, right? With OG now collectively two on two on one. No, not allowed.

Not gonna happen. But it’s nice to think about, 

[00:40:01] Paula: we’ll decide by December. By by, there’s no, 

[00:40:05] Jordan: no sandwiching and no two on one. 

[00:40:08] Paula: Hey, 

[00:40:09] Doug: now, 

[00:40:09] Joe: no, no seed spreading either Doug. Uh, yeah. A whole different deal. Hey, uh, let’s get back to our different risks because Paula, the next one on my types of risks. Many of these, now the people don’t think about it all ’cause they’re too enrapture with the concept of market risk.

Credit risk is a thing. Mm. 

[00:40:27] Paula: Credit risk, like on, on debt instruments that you purchase. 

[00:40:30] Joe: Well, yeah, and I’ll tell you, you and I answered a question about this og you and I answered a question about this. People that wanna do private equity. Right. I wanna invest in private equity. Those people need to think about credit risk.

Paul, 

[00:40:40] Paula: right there. There’s credit risk in private equity. There’s credit risk in in junk bonds. I mean, there’s credit risk anytime that you are taking the lender side of the deal. This kinda goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You know, if you invest in equities, you’re becoming a part owner of a company, but in bonds or in many other types of deals, you are becoming a lender.

And, um, you need to think about the credit worthiness of the underlying entity. And it’s not exactly credit risk, but it’s related. Depositor risk is, uh. Another form, uh, or at least a, it’s a cousin to credit risk. 

[00:41:17] Joe: You talking about you deposit it an institution and is that institution gonna be good for it?

[00:41:21] Paula: Exactly, exactly. And I’m thinking again about crypto in this particular case. Mm-hmm. Because in, um, traditional banking, there are a lot of regulations that protect financial institutions. And there’s FDIC insurance. There, there are protections, but that doesn’t exist in the world of crypto. And many people have lost their, many depositors have lost their deposits when the underlying institution went under.

Jordan, you’re not in. Yeah, I mean I 

[00:41:45] Jordan: feel like you can mitigate credit risk, right? And this is the difference between investment and speculation. I think like, so you’re talking about credit risk of a bond, right? You can look at, see what that bond is rated. Is it a government bond? Is it a private bond? Is it a junk bond?

I mean, you can kind of mitigate that risk and the more you get to the riskier asset, the more you’re really looking at a speculation as opposed to an investment. I think there’s also deposit risk can be somewhat mitigated, uh, depending, like obviously when you’re talking about your bank account, whether it’s FDI and C insured, et cetera.

But when you talk about the credit risk, I feel like we’re moving much more out of the tried and true investment space and moving a little bit more to the speculation or concentrated risk space. And so that’s a decision, but that’s a very clear decision that you’re looking for maybe higher returns. Uh, but you’re willing to take on a little bit more of an asymmetric risk, and so I, I see credit risk as an issue, but I feel like it’s an issue you can mitigate, especially if you are not concentrating risk.

[00:42:44] Joe: That’s interesting. Oh, gee, though, I think I agree with what Jordan’s saying, but I feel like it’s often an uneducated investor who’s like, I don’t like market risk. Why do I take this risk that they don’t even recognize as credit risk? 

[00:42:54] OG: Yeah. I mean, obviously if your money’s sitting in a bank account, there’s, you know, unless it’s over a quarter million dollars, there’s, there’s no risk with that.

Paul has got something there when it comes to the deposit or risk of crypto and the wallet, and I’m too stupid to know any of that stuff, so I’m just gonna use crypto words like blockchain and defi. Does that make me sound like I know what I’m talking about? Think about 

[00:43:19] Joe: hot wallet versus cold wallet, which sounds like, oh yes.

[00:43:22] OG: Yes. We definitely should. Hot wallet sounds 

[00:43:24] Joe: like plant too many seeds in the wrong 

[00:43:25] Jordan: fields. Yeah, I was gonna say that. That that sounds like a problem with your lactose intolerance again. Yes, exactly. 

[00:43:31] OG: So, I’m sorry I can’t 

[00:43:32] Joe: come out today. I got a little case of hot wallet. 

[00:43:35] OG: It’s like the thing I saw in Reddit and crypto people will get this one.

It says, mom, I saw a sticky note in your, on your desk with 12 random words. I threw it out. You know, it’s like that’s your crypto passphrase. You know that they give you your wall passphrase, like 12 random words. Do not put this anything electronic. Write it down. 

[00:43:54] Joe: Isn’t that the guy in England was, it isn’t in England where he is trying to get the rights to go through the, the dump still’s.

[00:43:58] OG: Trying to do it. Still trying to, well, it’s not a dump anymore. They made it into a park. Oh, no. Now he’s trying to rip the park up and he’s suing ’em for whatever. Anyways, I don’t think that that’s a big issue. I think it’s a bigger issue when you start getting into esoteric type type things. Like you mentioned private equity, that all the rage, uh, I what, seven years ago was private lending when you could do like micro loans.

Mm-hmm. And you could like create your own bond portfolio of lending money to people. And how great is that in $25 increments? Like, oh God. It’s funny, Audrey, you saw how much people 

[00:44:33] Joe: didn’t understand credit risk, by the way, that that has evolved. Yeah. I mean, the way that those companies have completely evolved is because of people not getting, yeah, you loan money.

It said I was gonna get 

[00:44:45] OG: 12%. It’s like, but the guy was an F rated. Yeah, a borrower. So I said this on Kickstarter projects 

[00:44:51] Joe: all the time, by the way. Or 

[00:44:52] OG: Kickstarter is another good example. 

[00:44:54] Joe: Yeah. Kickstarter. Kickstarter. People are like, oh, where’s my thing, dude? You are helping fund the thing with people you don’t know.

There’s no insurance on this product. Yeah. You’re not guaranteed a seat at the table by Kickstarting. Anything. Yeah. Yeah. Wild. Uh oh. Og, let’s stick with you because, uh, I, I think a lot of people aren’t gonna know this risk or reinvestment risk. It says on here, is this the risk of reinvesting 

[00:45:17] OG: pass? What’s the next one?

Yeah, I know. 

[00:45:19] Joe: Reinvestment 

[00:45:20] OG: risk. Anybody. I think the idea here is really around, you know, the fact that if you have your, there’s two things here. One is you’re having your money. Your dividends reinvested, your capital gains reinvested. And sometimes when that cash is being paid out, it’s being paid out for a bad reason, not a good reason.

And if your investing is always on auto reinvest, you’re like turning around and going, oh, I know you’re trying to give it to me, but here’s it back. And, you know, that may not be what you want to do. I also think about investment re or reinvestment risk in the sense of, uh, apple is a great example of this.

Obviously great stock performer over the last 20 years or whatever, not so great the 25 years before that, but, um, they famously, I think now they finally pay a dividend, but they famously didn’t pay a dividend forever. And so what was happening was, you’re an owner of Apple, you’re making, you know, you’re, you’re getting profits from Apple, but the board of directors is saying, we’re not gonna give you any of that cash yet.

We think it’s best that we reinvest this money, not give it to you guys yet. And now that paid off. Right? That worked out. Apple did a good job of reinvesting everybody’s money. But if you’re investing in a company or it’s a ETF or a product or whatever that doesn’t have dividends that are paying out, you’re trusting that the people who are taking the profits of the company, which you should get some of, they’re saying, well, we wanna put this back in the company.

You’re, you’re basically abdicating the responsibility to them, which could be a good thing, but it might also be a not so good thing. But you are giving that, that decision to somebody else. 

[00:46:49] Joe: Yeah. That’s what it means to me. I dunno if it’s good or bad, but there’s a risk when it’s not you. I wanna do a speed round with these last four, uh, doc.

Here’s, here’s one that, uh, people didn’t worry about I think until just a couple years ago. Inflation risk. 

[00:47:01] Jordan: Yeah, I mean inflation risk, but again, the question is in terms of what I mean, if inflation is your fear, I. Investing in businesses that are growing long term is probably your best hedge. And so the easy way to do with that is the s and p 500 at a diversified basket of stocks that are growing in the United States and are thriving or being involved more directly in entrepreneurship, which is a lot more risk.

But being part of a building budding business is kind of your best way, I think, to stay to, you know, is the best solve for inflation risk. And so I think equities are a great way to do that. A broad based, uh, basket of, of equities is, is probably what’s gonna serve you best long term. Hold, hold on. 

[00:47:47] Doug: Og, say the word that’s spelled S-A-L-V-E.

[00:47:51] OG: Salve. Is that 

[00:47:54] Doug: how you say that? Yeah. Salve. Have you been, does everybody say that word? Salve? 

[00:47:59] Jordan: I would say salve. 

[00:48:00] Doug: Yeah. I say s Hmm. 

[00:48:03] Jordan: I think either of them work. 

[00:48:05] Paula: What, like salmon. The Ella is silent. 

[00:48:09] Jordan: Yeah. Wow. I’m No, I’ve always said salve. You’ve officially blown Paula’s mind. 

[00:48:16] Joe: I, I mean, it sounds like, I think it is salve.

[00:48:18] OG: Wow. 

[00:48:19] Joe: Yeah, I think it is. I don’t know. Anyway, stackers, this is the important part of the show. If you wanna write in and let us know how to pronounce that word. Let’s go on. Paula, here’s the next one, horizon risk, which is that you’re looking at this to be 20 year money and something happens, it disrupts your plan, right?

Like, I get laid off, I need a new car, I got easier for something else, like horizon risk. I think, uh, this blindside is a real thing, 

[00:48:42] Paula: right? Well, so horizon risk in, in that regard is, it’s related to, but distinct from liquidity risk. So if you believe that you have a 20 year time horizon and then whoops, you don’t, that can absolutely mess up your plan.

And so I, I think horizon risk is really similar to liquidity risk. It’s the risk of. I don’t wanna say poor planning because that’s, that sounds, yeah, that has a kind of a judge, a judgy element to it. It’s the risk of inaccurate planning. So it may be that you planned well, but, but there’s a difference between doing something well and doing something accurately.

[00:49:18] Joe: It’s interesting too because I think sometimes horizon risk and concentration risk go together. Like if I’ve got, if I’ve got a concentrated position, I really need 20 years for this thing to work out, and then the horizon changes. That’s where I’m effed. You know what I mean? Sometimes you take these two different risks together and they play off each other to create this, this, you know, giant toilet, um, this spiral, I don’t know.

On that note. Uh, toilet risk. Toilet risk. Toilet risk. Toilet risk. Oh geez. Next, no, next is actually we gotta 

[00:49:47] OG: my house tomorrow. 

[00:49:49] Joe: You do with this colonoscopy? He’s got toilet risk. Do not go near OGs house tomorrow. Uh, longevity risk is a real one. OG in CFP world, I think a lot of people may not be familiar with longevity risk.

[00:50:02] OG: Well, this is just simply the idea that you’re gonna live longer than what your plan is. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that we look at life expectancy through the eyes of the people that have been before us. I’m fortunate in that one side of my grandparents lived to be in their late nineties, super healthy.

Just great grandparents. The best model of grandparenting and, and life and health and all that stuff that you could possibly have on the other side of my family. My grandma and grandpa passed away. Uh, my grandpa did very early, but then my grandma did with a kind of a long illness. Still lived into her eighties.

But if your experience has been, well, my grandma and grandpa died in their seventies, so therefore I probably, you know, you are discounting the fact of medical advancements and treatment and stuff like that. I was just talking to somebody earlier today. In the last month and a half I’ve had my regular physical and then I also did a CT heart scan with contrast die, which for anybody who’s never done that, it is like you are burning from the inside.

So just when they tell you it’s a little hot, it’s not hot, it’s like melting your insides hot for 15 seconds. It, I thought, this is how I go. But what’s really cool is not just the CT part of it, but then they overlay it with ai and I sat in my doctor’s office and with a little Apple pencil, he literally drove.

Drove the little bot. So be it through my arteries of all my, you know, all the arteries of my heart going, okay, this is this artery, what the, okay, there’s a little spot right here. And then, wow. And, and now with that level of accuracy, we can go redo that test in five years from now and overlay the two.

And, and the computer will say, here’s what’s happened. It’s not just, you know, it’s not just the technology and it’s not just a great trained physician to read it, but now it’s the technology on top of the technology going, you know, so how many lives is that gonna save? What is that gonna do in terms of longevity?

We discount the, the longevity of health, the rate of change in healthcare, if that’s a good, good way to put it. Now, technically during Covid, life expectancy went down. You know, that’s kind of a weird dynamic, but I suspect that that’s gonna kind of recover itself a little bit. Think about what happens if you live longer than what your plan is and what, what, what differences, what changes might you make in your, in your planning if you lived another 10 years beyond what you originally thought.

[00:52:17] Paula: Hmm. Well what’s interesting, you og you mentioned life expectancy went down during covid. I, if you look at aggregate life expectancy in the United States, it’s actually gone down o, not just in Covid, but overall do largely to two factors. One is obesity and the other is opioids. 

[00:52:32] PANAMA: Hmm. Yeah. And 

[00:52:33] Paula: so the risk of, in the broad aggregate, the risk of either obesity or opioids, putting you in an early grave is, is huge.

And therefore, for some cohort of people, there’s actually a much lower life expectancy. I keep saying the word cohort. I think that’s like the third time I’ve said it on this episode. You’re fancy. I need a new word for those of you that have the bingo 

[00:52:52] OG: going 

[00:52:52] Paula: for some group. 

[00:52:53] OG: Yeah, no, that’s true. But you also have to account for the fact that people who are, and this isn’t fair ’cause it’s just how it is.

Unfortunately. Generally, people who have more money also have better healthcare. 

[00:53:06] Paula: Yeah. 

[00:53:06] OG: That doesn’t mean that they’re not addicted to. Opioids or they’re not, not, you know, unhealthy, but they’re unhealthy and they can pay to fix it, you know? Yeah. That’s not fair, but it is what it is. Yeah. So, so if you have money and you’re healthy at 65, so if you’ve avoided obesity, if you’ve avoided heart disease, if you’ve avoided a lot of that stuff and you’re 65 and you have money, you better plan for a 30 year time horizon.

’cause there’s a really good chance you’re gonna live a long time. 

[00:53:33] Jordan: I would argue if you look at the data, the longevity risk is not dying without enough money. It’s dying with too much money because usually the people who are 65 years old who have money and know what an asset allocation is and have heard of even the concept of longevity risk, those people will all die with way more money than they ever planned.

And at least at this point. Now, that may change in the future, but right now we tend to see many more people in that group. The kind of people who are listening to this podcast. Many more of those people are gonna die with too much and not too little. 

[00:54:03] OG: Mm. Listen to this guy acting like you know something about death and life.

I know right? 

[00:54:08] Joe: Back off medical doctor. Just 

[00:54:10] Jordan: spend it all. Don’t 

[00:54:11] Joe: save it all. Settle down. Spend it. Now 

[00:54:13] Jordan: podcaster. 

[00:54:14] Joe: Last one on this list is, uh, foreign investment risk and og there’s a bunch of different, uh, things we can worry about with foreign investments. 

[00:54:21] OG: Well, not anymore because uh, they’re the only things that are going up.

So no risks investing foreign, that looks great getting it all overseas. No, I mean obviously the biggest thing there is currencies and Paul pointed out, you know, different economies and different rules and different ownership requirements and the rule of laws different in different places and that sort of thing.

So you gotta be careful if you’re investing in a specific thing. This is why diversification and abdicating the responsibility to a fund manager, even if it’s an ETF fund manager, is so much worth, is so worth the money because you’re going like, I don’t know which one of these 7,000 European companies to buy.

Let’s have this guy do it for 7 cents on the thousand, you know, and they can make sure that we’ve got one of everything and somebody checked to make sure that the company really exists. And there’s a board of directors and. You know, and if it blows up, so be it. You know? So don’t go into area no different than Paula wouldn’t show up in a unknown town and just go, well, I’ll just, this looks like a nice house.

I’ll just buy this rental property real fast without, you know, knowing what’s going on in the community, right? Mm-hmm. That’s a big risk. This has been 

[00:55:25] Joe: fantastic. I know that we started this discussion on, uh, Wednesday show. We’re talking about danger. Ultimately. 

[00:55:30] OG: There’s no danger with investing whatsoever though.

So get your money invested. That is the 

[00:55:34] Joe: takeaway was right. Takeaway has to be, 

[00:55:36] OG: there’s no danger. There’s 

[00:55:37] Joe: no danger. Oh geez. Right. Again, risk is different to danger. Yeah. That’s where we take this. But I love that to end the week, really a reason, discussion on risk. And thanks to all of you for partaking in it.

Let’s talk about what you’re doing this weekend, this fine April weekend. Og, what do you got going on, my friend? 

[00:55:53] OG: Oh, uh, this is, uh, we are wrapping up the final week of baseball season. So it’s weird in Texas, the high school baseball season’s over. So we’ve got, uh, one more game next week. It’s senior night, so we’re gonna have fun with that one little, uh, it’s always So you guys in Michigan haven’t even got their gloves out of storage yet?

We haven’t Right. Texas baseball’s over. I 

[00:56:11] Joe: know my niece just had, uh, she’s in, uh, gross Point, Michigan and had her first. Track meet last week, just had our first track meet and I’m like, in Texas, we’re almost done. 

[00:56:21] OG: Alex decided where he is gonna college. That’s cool. And can we announce it? Uh, I don’t think he’ll care if we, I mean, what is the, I don’t think anybody’s listening that will care.

He is going to Texas a and m, so he is gonna be, yeah. Right. That’s fantastic. Congrats. Yeah. Aggie. For everybody who’s a and m Aggie, people, you know, I’ll send you a cell number ’cause they just come out of the woodwork with their rah rahees and whatever. They got their big little chest that they do. So 

[00:56:46] Joe: some people call 

[00:56:46] OG: it 

[00:56:46] Joe: a cult, 

[00:56:47] OG: but I’m not sure that’s, I was 

[00:56:48] Joe: gonna say, when does he get the batch of Kool-Aid so we can start drinking the cult water that they have down there in College Station?

No. If I 

[00:56:54] OG: had one wish though with a and MI wish they would redo their sports branding. I mean, no offense to the fine folks at Adidas. But look, you’re a big SEC school. Can’t you get, you know, a Nike Jordan deal? Like, why, why, why are we gotta wear Adidas gear? No offense. The Adidas gear sucks. Let’s, let’s get some Nike gear highlights.

[00:57:13] Joe: There goes 

[00:57:13] Doug: that big Adidas sponsorship with Yeah. 

[00:57:15] OG: Opens his NIL money is gone. He 

[00:57:18] Doug: doesn’t like that. ’cause then it highlights his man boobs. He wants Nike. It just, it fits his upper body Better work hard to get this Oh 

[00:57:25] Joe: man, figure. It’s a great weekend. Paula, what’s this? Save us. What’s going on at Afford Anything This Fine week?

[00:57:30] Paula: So, uh, I’m in Panama. I’m in Panama for two months. Panama, that’s a song, I don’t know. Stop it. 

[00:57:39] Doug: Oh my God. Oh boy. Just like a Babe in the World. So on The 

[00:57:43] Paula: Afford Anything podcast, we’ve had a couple of travel themed episodes. So we had nomadic Matt on the show. His expertise is budget travel, so he talks about how to travel the world on $75 per day, which if you decide to actually live that way, that that’s a cost of living of 27,000 a year.

Whether you’re living that way or whether it’s literally just a, a one week or two week vacation. Nomadic Mat talks about how to travel on 75 bucks a day. Then we have Jillian Johns Ru on. She is a mom of six who talks about long-term. You know, multi-month travel with a as a family of eight. And then I’m doing a show from Panama like that.

I’m recording from Panama. That’s episode 600. So all of that ties in with the Panama theme, the travel theme 

[00:58:29] Joe: while you’re swimming down the Panama Canal. We talked about that last week. Yeah. We’ll be swimming just 

[00:58:33] Paula: backstrokes down now. That’s with’s your 

[00:58:35] Joe: microphone. That’d be fantastic. And by the way, I can’t wait.

I, I just keep thinking, I love nomadic Matt and his work, but, and Jillian’s work frankly. But, um, 20 years from now when Nomadic Matt’s name has changed, uh, finally settle down Matt. 

[00:58:49] Paula: I think he will forever be nomadic. Some people are, have a nomadic spirit 

[00:58:53] Joe: that is on the Afford Anything Podcast to just pause and, uh, hit subscribe or follow or whatever the verbiage is on the platform where you’re paying attention to us right now.

Speaking of 

[00:59:05] Jordan: what’s going on at Earn and Invest Jordan. As you listen to this, we’ll be in the middle of a rewind week, but what’s really happening is a format change. Oh. So for years and years and years, I’ve been doing two interviews a week. We have now moved to one interview a week, that is the Thursday episode, but a Monday episode preceding that Thursday episode is a solo episode where I do a 10 things episode.

So it’s usually 10 things about a topic that is, has come from that Thursday episode. So I talk about 10 things, about a, a topic, and then we have the Thursday episode, which is an interview which somehow touches on that Monday episode. We’ve been doing this for about a month. It’s been really great. I’ve gotten a lot of good feedback and uh, it’s kind of nice to do the solo thing occasionally, just get behind the mic and talk for 30 minutes about something that’s important to me.

[00:59:57] Joe: It’s so interesting and I know whenever I hear you speak at a campfire or I. Economy or wherever it might be. Like, people are like, I wanna hear more of that. So I’m, I’m excited to hear where you go with those episodes. 

[01:00:07] Jordan: Well, it’s a real different feel, as you guys know. We spend a lot of time trying to get the best out of other people by asking really good questions, making these really good conversations.

So it’s nice to turn it around a little bit and, and go a little bit deeper into what I think about these things and try to develop these deeper conversations, which hopefully the community then has. 

[01:00:24] Joe: Yeah, back and forth. Really with the community. Almost like you’re chatting one-on-one with the listener.

That’s really cool. Exactly. And that’s earn and invest. Pause this and go follow, subscribe to earn and Invest. All right. That’s gonna do it for today. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. If somebody needs to hear about these different types of risks, please share it with them. ’cause this was a fantastic conversation.

Hopefully people will stop saying things like, go play the market, like they’re playing a slot machine, or, um, I’m gonna go invest in all that foreign stuff, or I don’t, looking through these different types of risks, uh, no risk in milkshakes though. We need more. More milkshakes. And it looks like Paula is about to go on a field trip with our friend Paulette, 

[01:01:01] Paula: right?

Yeah. I mean, we’ve got the 24 absolute best milkshakes. That’s a strong statement. 

[01:01:07] Joe: Can we go through each of those so we can see Doug’s eyes roll back in his head That there’s 

[01:01:11] Paula: the apple pie shake that’s at the Brooklyn Pharmacy. 

[01:01:14] Joe: I bet that’s good. Oh my God. The 

[01:01:15] Paula: churros shake. The what? Shake. Churros.

[01:01:18] Joe: Churros Churro. Churros churro. Shake. 

[01:01:20] Paula: Oh my. I’m in. Let’s go. Let’s see. There’s Ralph Pacino. I guess that’s when you Ralph 

[01:01:29] Jordan: the Brooklyn Cheesecake Shake. Ooh, yes. See Joe, we gotta go back to New York. We got, that’s what the saying, it’s We gotta go back to New York 

[01:01:37] Joe: Road Trip. Jordan. Road 

[01:01:38] Doug: trip. This is like, Joe, did you ever see the movie Best in Show?

It totally is where he is going on about all the types of nuts. All the different nuts. You got your macadamia. Your Hazel. Of course you got your Brazil. Doug, 

[01:01:53] Joe: get us outta 

[01:01:53] Doug: here, man. What shouldn’t we have, 

[01:01:55] Joe: uh, learned on today’s show? 

[01:01:56] Doug: Well, Joe, here’s what’s stacked up on our to-do list for today. First, take some advice from og.

Apparently you’re supposed to choose your words carefully when you’re investing or something. Og, what are the words I’m like not allowed to say, I guess. 

[01:02:10] OG: Oh, I’m not sure what those words are, but I’m just thinking about churros and apple pie and going to Panama. That’s really where we have to focus right 

[01:02:19] Joe: there.

[01:02:20] Doug: Second, Paula taught us all about investing in real estate and how to put cattle in your New York City walkup to get farm subsidies. I don’t know. She was going on and on. Paula, can you walk us through that again? Yeah. So you can get a crunchy cereal shake. Oh,

but the big lesson. Don’t try and deposit chocolate chip cookie seeds in Joe’s mom’s brain. Turns out she’ll plant her foot right in your not a great exchange.

Thanks to Doc G for joining us today. You’ll find Doc Chi’s book, the Purpose Code in Stores Everywhere, and you’ll find his podcast Earn and Invest wherever you are listening to us now. We’ll also include links in our show [email protected]. Thanks also to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today.

You’ll find her fabulous Joe’s mom, kick me again. You’ll find her fabulous podcast. Afford anything wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, thanks to OG for joining us today. Looking for good financial planning. Help head to stacking benjamins.com/og for his calendar. This show is the property of SB podcast LLC, copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sea.

Hi, Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You’ll find out about our awesome [email protected], along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah, and before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don’t take advice from people you don’t know.

This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I’m Joe’s Mom’s neighbor, Duggan. We’ll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[01:05:03] Joe: Doug, get us outta here, man. What should we have, uh, learned on today’s show? 

[01:05:06] Doug: Welcome to First. Oh, hold on.

[01:05:21] Joe: Always like, do you know what now, Paula? No, but it’s catchy. 

[01:05:25] Paula: It’s catchy. 

[01:05:27] Joe: Do you 

[01:05:27] Jordan: know 

[01:05:27] Joe: who 

[01:05:27] Jordan: Van 

[01:05:27] Joe: Halen is? 

[01:05:29] Paula: It’s sketchy. I’ve heard. I’ve heard the name. 

[01:05:30] Joe: And now we can’t play this episode on any, 

[01:05:34] OG: any 

[01:05:34] Joe: place. 

[01:05:34] OG: Too bad. YouTube. It’s already live.